Iron Maw: anti-stealth lever spawn

[Angelus_dead]

Problem
In the Bastion of Power quest (Iron Maw) are randomly positioned levers and barriers which enhance replayability. However, one specific spawnpoint for the lever causes the quest to become enormously harder for certain (stealthy) playstyles than others. Of the 10+ possible lever positions on the first floor, only one of them is in the visual range of a stationary guard monster. For all other levers, you can wait for the guards to turn away before pulling it, but this one has someone looking at it 100% of the time.

Suggestion
I suggest that the position of either that lever-spawn or the nearby guard be adjusted slightly so that he's no longer eternally staring at it.
The guard is Tiefling Rogue at r1 lx1120 ly200 i34 cInside ox344.26 oy-583.81 oz-625.89 h257.3
The lever position is r1 lx1120 ly200 i43 cInside ox328.25 oy-571.27 oz-625.89 h257.3

Caveat
Someone will probably be tempted to make an l2p response with instructions as to how that specific guard can either be slain with an insta-kill strike, or moved away by a series of small intentional noises. But that possibility doesn't eliminate the problem: not all characters can handle that, and it is bad design for the ability to sneak through the section to depend so hugely on whether or not this one specific lever spot is randomly chosen.

[Duskslayer]

Perhaps silently soloing everything is not part of the design and a little combat is intended?

[MrCow]

The problematic stationary guard (the tiefling rogue) can be moved to point towards another direction with a bit of sound. He doesn't go back to his original location, so the lever in question can be done with stealthy means and non-detection. Personally, the odd geometry of the beds pose just as large of a problem.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by Duskslayer

Perhaps silently soloing everything is not part of the design and a little combat is intended?

And do you know what happens if you do a "little combat" against that one guard?

Originally Posted by MrCow

The problematic stationary guard (the tiefling rogue) can be moved to point towards another direction with a bit of sound.

That possibility was covered in the original suggestion:

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Someone will probably be tempted to make an l2p response with instructions as to how that specific guard can either be slain with an insta-kill strike, or moved away by a series of small intentional noises.

Note that using noises to move guards out of the way represents a flaw in the design of DDO's stealth mechanics, because characters with more ranks in Move Silently are less able to use that technique without coming out of sneak mode. (That is why I have suggested earlier that Rogue trainers can teach people how to make intentional noises)

[GeneralDiomedes]

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Note that using noises to move guards out of the way represents a flaw in the design of DDO's stealth mechanics, because characters with more ranks in Move Silently are less able to use that technique without coming out of sneak mode. (That is why I have suggested earlier that Rogue trainers can teach people how to make intentional noises)

Put on some Heavy Plate and a Tower Shield, take off the DEX item?

Looks like the Chattering Ring gives -10 to Move Silently as well.

[Kaervas]

Couldn't the player just equip a Tower Shield temporarily? That gives a pretty sizable penalty (-10 armor check penalty) and anyone can equip/unequip one instantly.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by Kaervas

Couldn't the player just equip a Tower Shield temporarily? That gives a pretty sizable penalty.

Depending on the situation, a character may be able to equip heavy armor, tower shields, and chattering ring to lower his Move Silently to the point where he is audible. But that will not necessarily work for every combination of player and monster, and is goofy anyhow.

For a rogue to intentionally carry full plate to help him sneak past a guard breaks verisimilitude.

One option for the devs to improve this situation would be to cause melee attacks against terrain to be audible. That way, a sneaking player could make an unarmed strike to the wall if he wants the monsters to hear a soft sound.

[Kaervas]

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

For a rogue to intentionally carry full plate to help him sneak past a guard breaks verisimilitude.

Can't do anything but agree to that.

[ArkoHighStar]

As much as I disagree with A_D on some issues, I find no flaws in his logic, escpecially given that this is the only lever out of 10+ that behaves this way.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by MrCow

Personally, the odd geometry of the beds pose just as large of a problem.

Yes, it is troublesome to get onto the bed without jumping. Instead you can climb up onto the nearby table, and step down from that onto the lever.

However, my old suggestion still stands:
Allow players in Sneak mode to jump, with a temporary -10 penalty to Hide, Move Silently, and Jump.

[sephiroth1084]

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

One option for the devs to improve this situation would be to cause melee attacks against terrain to be audible. That way, a sneaking player could make an unarmed strike to the wall if he wants the monsters to hear a soft sound.

Or to allow us to use a ranged weapon against terrain without breaking stealth (and having it cause a noise), which, actually, I think we can do to a degree. Been a while since I tried using that tactic (I like summoning sacrificial dogs better).

Personally, I like that some of the guards do focus on their task, rather than being slackers, and that we have mechanics (albeit wonky ones) for distracting guards and such. Moving sentries around with sound and deception was one of the most fun things about Metal Gear Solid, so why should that be a negative here?

Rather than move the guard, I say enhance the mechanics.



And to the people who say, "Just put on items that reduce your stealth skills": aside from the verisimilitude issue, you also run into a possibility where you can't lower your skill by enough. How silly would it be for a 20th level rogue trying to solo Stealthy Repossession who is too quiet to get things done?

Also, while the Chattering Ring can be used in this way (I believe MrCow posted a video of soloing Sins using this tactic), how many stealthy characters are going to want to grind The Titan for this reason? The grind for that ring is a reason many people don't play AC builds.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Rather than move the guard, I say enhance the mechanics.

Player demographics make it hard to justify investing many designer resources into improving stealth. It would be enjoyable to a lot of folks... but it would also be a really challenging thing for the devs to get right.

There are obvious problems like Pale Master and Henshin Mystic that have a dramatically higher need to be handled.

Probably the first priority to improve stealth (aside from quest-specific things like this thread) would be to adjust it so that it is useful in generic combats: it should rarely be a tactical error for a rogue to sneak up to the enemy and open combat with a backstab.

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Moving sentries around with sound and deception was one of the most fun things about Metal Gear Solid, so why should that be a negative here?

It is instructive to look at how games like MGS make stealth into fun gameplay. It is notable that they use very forgiving stealth, where a player who is essentially spotted can still get the guards to forget him and decide it was their imagination. That is in stark contrast to what happens in Iron Maw, where being spotted by one sentry has him press the alarm in 1/3rd of a second, meaning the entire fort is at alert for the whole remainer of the quest.

The importance of forgiveness to gameplay is well-studied, and is most prominently visible in the mechanic of hitpoints.

[Tobril]

The solution to this is easy.

All you have to do is wear a little black dress and shout "O yoo-hoo" at the guard. He then follows you around a corner where you apply sharp implements to his person and he becomes perished.

[Eladrin]

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Or to allow us to use a ranged weapon against terrain without breaking stealth (and having it cause a noise), which, actually, I think we can do to a degree. Been a while since I tried using that tactic (I like summoning sacrificial dogs better).

You can generate distracting noises by performing a ranged attack that misses all targets, since projectiles striking terrain generate a noise. (Be careful with auto-targeting.) I was fairly surprised that returning throwing weapons weren't mentioned yet - it's an effective way to get enemies to investigate noises.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by Eladrin

You can generate distracting noises by performing a ranged attack that misses all targets, since projectiles striking terrain generate a noise.

Yes, but to make a ranged attack takes you out of Sneak mode. That is problematic if there are numerous other enemies in the vicinity, which is the case in this dungeon.

Melee attacks leave you in Sneak mode, but do not make noise.

[sephiroth1084]

Originally Posted by Eladrin

You can generate distracting noises by performing a ranged attack that misses all targets, since projectiles striking terrain generate a noise. (Be careful with auto-targeting.) I was fairly surprised that returning throwing weapons weren't mentioned yet - it's an effective way to get enemies to investigate noises.

Uh...dev made a boo boo? Like I mentioned, I couldn't recall whether throwing a weapon takes you out of stealth. A_D did. You can use a ranged weapon to move targets very far away if you're in a safe location, but that is very rarely a realistic option. If you guys were to change the mechanic so that only ranged attacks that strike a target break stealth (if it's felt that stealthy sniping is too powerful) then this would be a viable option.

ELADRIN DOESN'T PLAY STEALTHY CHARACTERS!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Player demographics make it hard to justify investing many designer resources into improving stealth. It would be enjoyable to a lot of folks... but it would also be a really challenging thing for the devs to get right.

I agree that it would be challenging to get the mechanics right and that the effort would likely be disproportionate to the percentage of the populace that bothers with stealth at all, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed--sneaking should be fun, and part of that enjoyment, for me at least, is in how the skills interact with the monsters in the environment.

There are obvious problems like Pale Master and Henshin Mystic that have a dramatically higher need to be handled.

That we don't have it yet, or...?

Probably the first priority to improve stealth (aside from quest-specific things like this thread) would be to adjust it so that it is useful in generic combats: it should rarely be a tactical error for a rogue to sneak up to the enemy and open combat with a backstab.

Yeah. I find it useful on my Assassin (I think I use Assassinate in combat with full parties more often than most folks do), but it would definitely be nice if stealthy attacking were more rewarding otherwise. I think the devs took a step in this direction when they made it so that attacking while sneaking doesn't necessarily break stealth: if you can kill something in just a hit or two, you can often remain hidden.

It is instructive to look at how games like MGS make stealth into fun gameplay. It is notable that they use very forgiving stealth, where a player who is essentially spotted can still get the guards to forget him and decide it was their imagination. That is in stark contrast to what happens in Iron Maw, where being spotted by one sentry has him press the alarm in 1/3rd of a second, meaning the entire fort is at alert for the whole remainer of the quest.

The importance of forgiveness to gameplay is well-studied, and is most prominently visible in the mechanic of hitpoints.

I don't think you've played MGS... DDO is much more forgiving! In MGS, even taking out a guard unnecessarily will often bring down an entire squad on you, as his boss gets worried by his not checking in. And the AI in those games are much better at searching you out! They check inside lockers, air ducts, bathrooms, under cars... And they throw grenades!

Being spotted, and the consequences thereof, in DDO could probably stand to be tweaked a bit, but I don't think we are too far off the mark currently. Perhaps sneaking after breaking line of sight should have more weight to it... Monsters de-aggro, but continue searching, and give monsters chasing the character degrading bonuses to their Spot and Listen?

Or give us more places to actually hide in quests so that if a mistake is made, it can be corrected with some skill. The end of Monastery of the Scorpion is a good example of how the stealth mechanics are too punishing (to support A_D's assertion): you bump one scorpion or monk, and the entire hallway and boss aggro on you, and continue to be aggro'ed on you, even after using Dimension Door to pop back to the entrance and running back.

[Missing_Minds]

Originally Posted by Eladrin

You can generate distracting noises by performing a ranged attack that misses all targets, since projectiles striking terrain generate a noise. (Be careful with auto-targeting.) I was fairly surprised that returning throwing weapons weren't mentioned yet - it's an effective way to get enemies to investigate noises.

Yeah.. about that.

MOBMOB
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MOBMOB..................o
MOBMOB
MOBMOB
MOBMOB


The troll above? Standing still. Soft targeting on, so I selected myself to essentually turn it off for the moment. I shoot where you see the recticle. How far away was I? Far enough they didn't detect us at all, and spells wouldn't hit them.

Direct hit.

So... sure you can guide them away... them and the rest of the freaking group all at once because you JFK'd the shot.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

the devs took a step in this direction when they made it so that attacking while sneaking doesn't necessarily break stealth: if you can kill something in just a hit or two, you can often remain hidden.

If you can kill them in just a hit or two, then they are too weak to care about. It is a waste of time to approach enemies of that caliber with any tactics that are slower than a breakneck charge.

What would be nice if a party that saw a group of five dangerous monsters around the corner could make a persuasive case for their Rogue to sneak up first and backstab one before they know you're there. It would be nice if a move like that led to tactical benefits. Instead, for the Rogue to sneak up just places him at increased risk, without providing him any more opportunities for Sneak Attack and Assassinate than if they all charged as a group.

[Draccus]

One MMO (WoW maybe?) that I played had a wonderful, often ignored, but insanely useful skill called distraction. This skill allowed the player to target an area on the ground and toss a pebble (at least that's what the animation looked like) at that target. Any monsters in the area that could hear it would move to investigate the sounds and give the rogue a chance to slip by.

DDO could easily implement this skill since ground targeting is already in the game.

As far as stealth not being a viable, desired play option, I'd ask why not? If it's acceptible for a sorc or cleric to blow through a quest at light speed using only two buttons, what's wrong with a slower, harder, twitchier, more dangerous stealth attempt?

But I have to ask this of the A_D: Are you soloing Bastion on a rogue or mostly-rogue? How the heck do you handle the end fight??

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by Draccus

One MMO (WoW maybe?) that I played had a wonderful, often ignored, but insanely useful skill called distraction.

WOW has Distract.

Note that WOW also includes a fairly elaborate mechanic for rogues to pickpocket from monsters, which provides treasure separate from what they drop when killed. It would be cool and funny if DDO rogues were able to pickpocket the collectibles off of monsters, although of course collectibles are of such little value that it would be meaningless for a player to spend time stealing them.

But it has been often suggested that a Rogue who sneaks up on a monster can steal some important (notional) item to debuff it in the upcoming combat.

Originally Posted by Draccus

But I have to ask this of the A_D: Are you soloing Bastion on a rogue or mostly-rogue? How the heck do you handle the end fight??

Dungeon Scaling weakens those bosses to the point where they are manageable. Note that an Acrobat Rogue is immune to knockdown from a Marilith.

I wish I could say I used +5 Metalline Flametouched Rapiers of Deception, but I haven't quite found one yet. I've done multiple-Rogue stealth assaults, which makes the end go a lot faster because some of the group will always be able to sneak attack.