Need help an Barbarian Build.

[ZNKJ1234]

Ive seen many posts about barbs and they have extremely low ac is it possible to stay pure barb/MAX Dps/ok to high ac/minimum saves?

If possible please post it below for me to see thanks.

ps, its supposed to be Need help on a Barbarian Build not Need help an Barbarian Build

- Shuned

[Hobgoblin]

if you go for ac you have to give up something, either hp ( never a good idea) or damage (also not a good idea)

Just build for damage. You cant be hurt by something if it is dead!!!

[ZNKJ1234]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

if you go for ac you have to give up something, either hp ( never a good idea) or damage (also not a good idea)

Just build for damage. You cant be hurt by something if it is dead!!!

lol kk

[boldarblood]

From a barb point of view, your better off with your focus on DPS than trying to be a AC guy. Don't worry about your AC, you'll give up to much of what makes a Barb so powerful to try to achieve a good AC. What is better than worrying about your AC is to worry about damage mitigation. Don't be afraid to ask for buffs, resists, blur-displacement, GH, stoneskin, etc.

[maddmatt70]

I don't know there is some possibilities if you went dex based and made either DT robes or got the icy rainment for higher ac. I sort of disagree with the other posters. I recently compared a current fighter vs. a dex based twf barbarian with intimidate who could swap to a shield for dr and ac and the like. The barbarian is nearly in all respects better then a fighter trying to do the same thing the multi weapon styles.

[Noctus]

A DEX-based Barbarian is an oxymoron.

Barbarians get their thing done (DPS) through massive raises to STR. Going DEX would annihilate this advantage
If you want to go DEX-based with AC go Ranger. This class supports such a style without forfeiting their best combat ability.


P.S.
Under the exclusion of Crit-Rage a current TWF-Fighter deals more damage than a TWF barbarian. A non-raging (to get some meaningfull AC) barbarian is massively dwarfed by a run-of-the-mill fighter.
Rage gives +10STR, which leads to +5 damage in the main and +2 or +3 damage in the off-hand, depending on base-STR.
Weapon Spec gives +6 damage in the main, and in the off-hand.

The reason why a Barbarian can archieve a better DPS is because of Crit-Rage and the fact that he can exchange his better to-hit (higher STR) through Power Attack enhancements into more Damage.


@Madmatt
I´d really like to see your number-crunching. For me your result looks quiet strange.

[Dexxaan]

Max your STR, Then CON, Then STR, then CON.

Barbarians are NOT ThermoNuclear Complexity Level Builds.

BTW: Please get a BIG AXE...or two BattleAxes (Dwarvens...Heavy Picks).. stay away from those 15th Century White Wigged and Buckled Shoe Rapier Barbarians that have bum rushed Stormreach.

[Tanka]

Originally Posted by Dexxaan

Max your STR, Then CON, Then STR, then CON.

Barbarians are NOT ThermoNuclear Complexity Level Builds.

BTW: Please get a BIG AXE...or two BattleAxes (Dwarvens...Heavy Picks).. stay away from those 15th Century White Wigged and Buckled Shoe Rapier Barbarians that have bum rushed Stormreach.

Forsooth, didst thou see the tiny man that hath run through here?

Alas! He hath stolen my powder!

[Aranticus]

Originally Posted by Noctus

A DEX-based Barbarian is an oxymoron.

a dex based barbarian is almost going for crit effects, ie w/p, repeaters, smiting, etc

Barbarians get their thing done (DPS) through massive raises to STR. Going DEX would annihilate this advantage
If you want to go DEX-based with AC go Ranger. This class supports such a style without forfeiting their best combat ability.

see the 1st reply. the problem is crit rage. a barb should be given a multiplier to crit rather than increasing threat range. i look at it as in a raging barb is likely to inflict a death blow on you by hitting you extremely hard but a duelist is more likely to find openings in your defences


P.S.
Under the exclusion of Crit-Rage a current TWF-Fighter deals more damage than a TWF barbarian. A non-raging (to get some meaningfull AC) barbarian is massively dwarfed by a run-of-the-mill fighter.
Rage gives +10STR, which leads to +5 damage in the main and +2 or +3 damage in the off-hand, depending on base-STR.
Weapon Spec gives +4 damage in the main, and in the off-hand.

corrected. the new enhancements were given to give fighters some dps love due to the overbalanced crit rages. weapon spec is +2, gtr spec is another +2 for a total of +4. dun compare the old barb with a new ftr

The reason why a Barbarian can archieve a better DPS is because of Crit-Rage and the fact that he can exchange his better to-hit (higher STR) through Power Attack enhancements into more Damage.

wrong. the reason barbs can achieve a better DPS is the presence of buffs ie GH, bard song, recitation, madstone which can raise the to-hit to such levels that they can consistently hit 40ish AC (which most mobs have) that they need not turn PA off

@Madmatt
I´d really like to see your number-crunching. For me your result looks quiet strange.

see red

assuming a L16 finesse elven barb

dex = 20(base)+2(tome)+2(enh)+6(item)+2(shroud)= 32 dex
str = 12(base)+2(tome)+6(item)+10(rage) = 30 str

AC = 10(base)+4(raiment)+1(ritual)+1(dodge)+8(bracers)+ 3(chattering)+3(seal)+11(dex)+4(insight)+5(prot)= 50, +5 shield w ritual = 58

[sirgog]

Originally Posted by ZNKJ1234

Ive seen many posts about barbs and they have extremely low ac is it possible to stay pure barb/MAX Dps/ok to high ac/minimum saves?

If possible please post it below for me to see thanks.

ps, its supposed to be Need help on a Barbarian Build not Need help an Barbarian Build

- Shuned

Instead of going for AC as a form of damage mitigation (which is possible, as Maddmatt70 indicates. but comes at a huge cost to damage), consider shooting for Evasion as your only form of damage mitigation.

Bbn14/Rog2 can have a solid Reflex save with evasion (the save won't be stellar, you will fail many saves on rolls a little above 1, but Barbs have the HP to survive that). Plus, the Rogue levels will occasionally add a little extra damage and give you the option of UMD so you can self-buff just after shrining; or if you aren't a fan of UMD that you can't use 3/4 of the time, you can consider Open Lock, Stealth or a couple of other uses of the extra skill points.

I'm currently levelling a toon that is shooting for Bbn14/Rog2.

[Aranticus]

Originally Posted by sirgog

Instead of going for AC as a form of damage mitigation (which is possible, as Maddmatt70 indicates. but comes at a huge cost to damage), consider shooting for Evasion as your only form of damage mitigation.

Bbn14/Rog2 can have a solid Reflex save with evasion (the save won't be stellar, you will fail many saves on rolls a little above 1, but Barbs have the HP to survive that). Plus, the Rogue levels will occasionally add a little extra damage and give you the option of UMD so you can self-buff just after shrining; or if you aren't a fan of UMD that you can't use 3/4 of the time, you can consider Open Lock, Stealth or a couple of other uses of the extra skill points.

I'm currently levelling a toon that is shooting for Bbn14/Rog2.

my barb toradon has 450 hp unraged (no shroud item), umd, search, OL and disable. just in case anyone wonders his abilities to do traps, he can get vod elite traps

search = 19+15(item)+5(20int)+5(HV4)+4(GH)+2(head)= +50
dd = 19+15+5+5+4+2+3(ventilated)+7(tools)= +60

[ZNKJ1234]

Cool, you all have been a great help just gonna max str then con or 18 con then the rest dex.

- shuned

[sirgog]

Originally Posted by ZNKJ1234

Cool, you all have been a great help just gonna max str then con or 18 con then the rest dex.

- shuned

Don't quite do that.

Make sure that you can get a Dex of 17 with tomes, so you can get all the 2WF feats, as they are crucial to a Barb.

I'd go 18 (plus level up points) Str, 15 Dex (16 if you don't have access to capped characters to pass down a +2 Dex tome) and then put the rest in Con.

[ZNKJ1234]

Originally Posted by sirgog

Don't quite do that.

Make sure that you can get a Dex of 17 with tomes, so you can get all the 2WF feats, as they are crucial to a Barb.

I'd go 18 (plus level up points) Str, 15 Dex (16 if you don't have access to capped characters to pass down a +2 Dex tome) and then put the rest in Con.

i was gonna go with a greataxe and have power attack.

[Hobgoblin]

twf is at the very minimum 50% percent more damaging then thf. And take power attack either way!!

yes you get +10 damage with each swing, but if you go twf you are getting +5 damage on each hand... see?

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by ZNKJ1234

Cool, you all have been a great help just gonna max str then con or 18 con then the rest dex.

- shuned

For stats i would go one of these ways

32 (if dwarf)
18 str +4 levels + 6 item +2 rage pot + 2 tome (favor) + 7 rage = 39
16 dex +1 tome + 6 item =23
16 con + 2 enhancement + 3 barb +6 item + 7 rage = 34

28

16 str
16 dex
16 con

use either dwarf axes or picks and watch the foes fall

[maddmatt70]

Originally Posted by Noctus

@Madmatt
I´d really like to see your number-crunching. For me your result looks quiet strange.

Really what I should do is post a build. Will sometime this week so you can see what I mean. Aranticus has the right flavor as the concept is stat damaging specialist and using crit burst weapons on red named while alternating between using twf or S&B. With the barbarian rages the strength can still get pretty high so dps with crit rage 2 is still higher then a fighter. The barbarian can turtle really well with the dr and decent ac for S&B intimidating. The fighters biggest issue as we know is dps whereas the barb can overcome that using stat damagers and the rage for strength for and barb crit rage for dps so dex based weapon finesse barbarians are far better then dex based weapon finesse fighters.

[Mayen]

Personally if TWF id say go human hands down and make sure you can hit 17 Dex. If your going Two handed fighting id say go WF and take all the power attack enhancments (+22 damage a swing total). At this point as a barb I would avoid dwarf other then for flavor or if you want the +2 damage a swing.

If going human get human improved healing maxxed and then start planning on getting MORE improved healing, it goes a long way to replacing AC.

If going WF plan on farming for a docent of defiance when you get appropriate lvl for the damage reduction, it goes a long way to replacing AC.

If going dwarf make sure you invest heavily in con/toughness/enhancements as HP is about your only defense at all. While HP is good for run of the mill every day barbs it doesnt make you stand out from any other barb.

If going elf see if you can fit in the feats to get displacement dragonmarks, it goes a long way to replacing AC. "Disclaimer, elf is not an optimal choice for your straight barb, but mixxed in with 1 or 2 lvls of ranger and then arcane archer it is possible to make a nice ranged char"

[Noctus]

Originally Posted by Aranticus

Under the exclusion of Crit-Rage a current TWF-Fighter deals more damage than a TWF barbarian. A non-raging (to get some meaningfull AC) barbarian is massively dwarfed by a run-of-the-mill fighter.
Rage gives +10STR, which leads to +5 damage in the main and +2 or +3 damage in the off-hand, depending on base-STR.
Weapon Spec gives +4 damage in the main, and in the off-hand.

corrected. the new enhancements were given to give fighters some dps love due to the overbalanced crit rages. weapon spec is +2, gtr spec is another +2 for a total of +4. dun compare the old barb with a new ftr

Read what i wrote : " Under the exclusion of Crit-Rage....."
I dont compare has-been past-stuff with the current enviroment. This would be harebrained and of no use to anybody. This precondition was made to show what the difference in Barbarian and Fighter combat style is. And that they are much closer than many people think they are.
Its an easy to fall in the fallacy to look at +10STR rage and think"Golly-molly, they are king of DPS for sure. Who could possibly keep up with this?" The fact that fighers get a flat +6 damage to attacks and also a permanent +3 STR through enhancements, which i forgot to incluse in the above comparisation btw, is overlooked by most.
---> A Barbarian will only pull ahead of a Fighter in DPS if he is in a Crit rage. A normal +10STR-rage is not enough. So if you want to build a character who is good in DPS and has a reasonable AC, barbarian is not the way to go. Fighter is a viable alternative, even if all the world is currently in a Ranger hype.

To the numbers: A Fighter gets +6 damage per attack through Weapon Specialisation. 2 from Weapon Spec, 2 from Improved Weapon Spec and 2 from weapon spec enhancements.

[maddmatt70]

Originally Posted by Noctus

Read what i wrote : " Under the exclusion of Crit-Rage....."
I dont compare has-been past-stuff with the current enviroment. This would be harebrained and of no use to anybody. This precondition was made to show what the difference in Barbarian and Fighter combat style is. And that they are much closer than many people think they are.
Its an easy to fall in the fallacy to look at +10STR rage and think"Golly-molly, they are king of DPS for sure. Who could possibly keep up with this?" The fact that fighers get a flat +6 damage to attacks and also a permanent +3 STR through enhancements, which i forgot to incluse in the above comparisation btw, is overlooked by most.
---> A Barbarian will only pull ahead of a Fighter in DPS if he is in a Crit rage. A normal +10STR-rage is not enough. So if you want to build a character who is good in DPS and has a reasonable AC, barbarian is not the way to go. Fighter is a viable alternative, even if all the world is currently in a Ranger hype.

To the numbers: A Fighter gets +6 damage per attack through Weapon Specialisation. 2 from Weapon Spec, 2 from Improved Weapon Spec and 2 from weapon spec enhancements.

Huh. I agree with the exclusion of crit rage 2 fighters become more competitive, but crit rage 2 is in game and exists so what is your point. I would be raged all the time as a dex based barb. I wouldn't take the -s to ac for more damage enhancements that barbs can take and would be dex based, but other then that nothing different from a typical barbarian and would be raged 24/7.