Bards need help in mod9

[Angelus_dead]

The bard class has a problem: the D&D original version is poorly-designed so that levels 16-20 provide minimal benefit (mainly because new spells and songs stop being added). That can be somewhat rectified with feats and prestige classes. but they weren't added to DDO. What DDO does have are three bard specialties, but they stop at level 6 and the indication is that mod9 will not extend them to levels 12 & 18.

There are three paths for the DDO devs to improve the later levels of the bard class:
1. New feats/enhancements for bards, especially new uses for Bardic Music
2. New bard spells (note that at levels 16-20 bards go from 4 to 5 spells known of each level, meaning that adding even low-level bard spells will still have benefit for high-level bards).
3. Extend the benefits of the warchanter/spellsinger/virtuoso specialty.

One specific bard problem is that their healing falls behind, removing a party role they could once fill. From levels 1-12 bards kept on advancing their healing alongside clerics, although they were always a solid step behind. But then when clerics get Heal bards fall further behind, although they partly make it up with Heal scrolls. The imminent Mass Heal spell will put bards further back (a Spellsinger option below could rectify that)


Following are some suggested features that could be added to tiers 2 and 3 of bard specialties to help the bard class. (Also, some of these could be provided as enhancements or feats for any bard... and new bard spells are always needed!) Enough of these options should be easy that the devs can get some of them into mod9.

The AP costs and other numbers here were not heavily considered, and of course there are probably a bigger range of features than are really needed. Most of the suggestions are chosen to be easy to implement, except the variable spell choice of Spellsinger.



Spellsinger
Spellsong grants higher DC bonus, plus either stacking Potency or reduced spell cooldowns. Spell cost reduction improves to 12%, 14%. You gain a small chance (10-30%) to keep a scroll after casting it.

Divine Singer 1, 2 AP, req Spellsinger 2, can't have Arcane Singer
Select one cleric spell from level 1-5. You gain that spell and can cast it as a cleric would, but at +5 sp and +50% cooldown. (Optionally you must meet a wisdom requirement)

Divine Singer 2, 2 AP, req bard 14, Divine Singer 1
As Divine Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-6.

Divine Singer 3, 2 AP, req Spellsinger 3
As Divine Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-7.

Divine Singer 4, 2 AP req bard 20, Divine Singer 3
As Divine Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-8.

Arcane Singer 1, 2 AP, req Spellsinger 2, can't have Divine Singer
Select one wizard spell from level 1-5. You gain that spell and can cast it as a wizard would, but at +5 sp and +50% cooldown. (Optionally you must meet an intelligence requirement)

Arcane Singer 2, 2 AP, req bard 14, Arcane Singer 1
As Arcane Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-6.

Arcane Singer 3, 2 AP, req Spellsinger 3
As Arcane Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-7.

Arcane Singer 4, 2 AP req bard 20, Arcane Singer 3
As Arcane Singer 1, but the spell is from level 1-8.

It might be good to restrict the gained spells based on your intelligence or wisdom, although not as firmly as a real wizard or cleric. For example the save DC for Destruction could use the average of Wisdom and Charisma modifiers. (Important note: the power of the Spellsinger learned spells depends on Mnemonic Potions, and if those potions are nerfed then the ability could be buffed)


Warchanter
The easy one. Obviously, the damage bonus from Inspire Courage goes up +1 at tier 2 and 3. Also the DR from Ironskin would improve to 7 and 10. Tier3 can give +1 AC to Inspire Heroics. At tier2 your buff songs play 50% faster if you have damaged an enemy within 3 seconds.

Snowflake Wardance, 2 AP, req Warchanter 2 or Virtuoso 2
By spending one use of bardic music, you temporarily can use your charisma bonus (in place of strength bonus) on attack rolls with a dagger or one-hand slashing weapon. (Note that current Warchanter builds wouldn't need this)

Inspire Awe, 1 AP, req Warchanter 2 or Virtuoso 2
Spend bardic music to cause Fear in enemies. Will DC 10+level/2+cha.

Inspire Militarism, 0 AP, req Warchanter 2
Spend bardic music to give one ally (not you) 1:1 BAB and proficiency with simple weapons and martial swords, axes, and hammers. (This might be overpowered, except that Divine Power clickies are already everyplace)

Inspire Legion, 0 AP, req Warchanter 3
As Inspire Militarism, but for everyone else nearby.

Furious Song 1, 0 AP, req Warchanter 2
Nearby allies gain a +3 morale bonus to strength and a 2% competence bonus on attack speed, but take -2 AC. The effects are suppressed on characters using Defensive Fighting or Combat Expertise.

Furious Song 2, 0 AP, req Warchanter 3
Nearby allies gain a +4 morale bonus to strength and a 4% competence bonus on attack speed, but take -3 AC. The effects are suppressed on characters using Defensive Fighting or Combat Expertise.


Virtuoso
At tiers 2 and 3 your songs play faster and have a bigger area. Songs that are normally single-target effect the whole group (excluding you if the bard couldn't normally target self). A tier 3 you are completely immune to Dance effects, and may use Charisma/Perform/Perform in place of Strength/Balance/Tumble for knockdown and falling.

Casual Fascinate, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 2
You can sing a Fascinate song without spending bardic music, although the DC is just 10+level/2+cha.

Reprise, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 2
Activate this icon to repeat your last song buff without spending bardic music, but the duration is reduced by the time that's elapsed since then.

Combine Songs, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 2
Each time you play Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness applies too.

Countersong, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 2
Spend a use of bardic music to impair the spellcasting of nearby enemies. Each opponent suffers 50% failure on spells with verbal components for 60 seconds, fort DC 10+level/2+cha negates. If the enemy is especially ambitious (red or purple name) then it instead suffers -4 caster level and save DC. Also if any targetted opponent has a song buff, you can dispel it with an opposed bard level check.

Dragonfire Inspiration, 1 AP, req Virtuoso 2 and 200 Argonessen Favor
Spend bardic music to give allies 1d6 fire damage on attacks.

Dweomer Appreciation, 2 AP, req Virtuoso 3 and 200 Twelve Favor
You gain Spell Resistance equal to your perform ranks+10.

Insidious Rythm, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 2
Spend a bardic music to hum a tune for 10 sec per bard level. Enemies who approach during that time become fascinated for 2 sec per bard level (Will DC 10+level/2+cha negates)

Compulsory Music, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
Enemies you have fascinated don't automatically recover when damaged. Instead you get a perform check to keep them stationary (DC=damage, but a natural 1 auto-fails)

Undeniable Dance, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
By spending 30 sp you can force an enemy to dance for 3 sec per bard level, Will DC 10+level/2+cha negates. The save repeats each 3 seconds, and the DC decreases by 1 each time. Especially ambitious enemies (with red or purple names) can attempt saves 3 times as fast. Targets become immune to reuse of the ability for 60 sec. (This means that Only a Virtuoso could make a raid boss dance, and only very briefly)

Untouchable Dance, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
By spending a bardic music you temporarily protect yourself (bard level * 5 sec). You may use charisma in place of the regular dex/con/wis on saving throws, and your AC increases to your perform modifier (or just add charisma to AC). You heal your cha bonus in hp every 3 sec, and you are 50% incorporeal. This effect is supressed for 10 sec if you make a weapon attack.

Exemplary Melody, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
By spending a bardic music you temporarily empower an ally to use your own charisma modifier on charisma skill checks.

Lyric Spell, 1 AP, req Virtuoso 3
By spending a bardic music you recover 2d6 sp per 3 seconds, total duration equal to your perform check. Cooldown 200 seconds.

Mindbend Performance, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
Spend bardic music to cast Dominate Monster

Revealing Performance, 0 AP, req Virtuoso 3
Spend bardic music to cast Mass True Seeing.

[Angelus_dead]

Here are some fairly easy Bard spells to add, mainly from Spell Compendium or Complete * books. The emphasis was on bard-only choices.

Healthful Rest: brd1, mass buff, 2x hp gained by resting (would be a popular lowbie clicky or potion)
Herald's Call: brd1, nearby enemies slowed for 10 sec (will neg)
Improvisation: brd1, self buff, for 10 sec/lev each attack or skill check has a 25% chance of a +4 luck bonus. (Won't help Haggle or other skills not involving a d20 roll)
Ironguts: brd1, target buffed +5 on Poison saves
Targeting Ray: brd1, target has -1 AC/3 lev against ranged attacks
Phantom Threat: brd1, target treated as flanked by all attackers for 10+lev sec (will negates)

Caterwaul: brd2, cone of enemies nauseated for 10 sec (just sickened on successful Will save)
Curse of Impending Blades: brd2/wiz2/ran2, single target takes -2 AC for 60 sec/lev (max 300). No save.
Mindless Rage: brd2, single enemy aggros on you for 4 sec/lev. Ends if 10 seconds pass without attacking you. (Might be problematic as it conflicts with Intimidate)
Mindless Rage alternative: For 20 sec/lev your Intimidate ranks are increased to your Perform ranks.
Painful Echoes: brd2, for 3 sec/level, multiple targets 1d4 sonic each 3 seconds and are sickened. Fort negates on each tick.
Sting Ray: brd2, single-target debuff like "Slow"
Torrent of Tears: brd2, single target sickened and blinded for 30 sec, will negates


Allegro: brd3, mass buff with Haste-equiv running speed for 60 sec/lev
Curse of Impending Blades, Mass: brd3/wiz3/ran3, nearby enemies take -2 AC
Gelsewhere Chant: brd3, you (and only you) port like a Dimension Door
Haunting Tune: brd3, mass shaken
Wounding Whispers: brd3, self-buff sonic guard

Cacophonic Shield: brd4, like Fire Shield, but both reduces sonic damage and inflicts sonic on attackers. Also 20% miss chance from ranged.
Ruin Delver's Fortune: brd4, super-fast casting, 40 sec cooldown. No metamagic applies except Quicken. For 10 sec you have 15 temp hp, charisma bonus to saves (doesn't stack with Divine Grace), poison immunity, fear immunity, and evasion.

Body Harmonic: brd5, for 3 sec/level, single enemy takes 1d10 damage to a random ability score every 3 sec. Will negates each tick. -20 Move Silently.
Endless Slumber: brd5, subject falls asleep permanently until damaged (save every 60 sec negates)
Wail of Doom: brd5, Fear effect, but all around you instead of cone. Also does 1d4/lev damage.
(Note that even if it's only a little better than Fear, having the effect at a different level can help)
Dirge: brd5, for 3 sec/level, enemies in a lingering area take 2 str+dex damage per 3 sec. Fort negates each tick.

Resonating Agony: brd6, single target nauseated for 5 sec/lev, repeated fort saves to reduce to sickened.
Nixie's Grace: brd6, self buff 60 sec/lev. Gain DR 5/Cold Iron, enhancement bonuses of +2 wis, +6 dex, +8 cha, and +20 swim. Waterbreathing.


Blasting Spells
Bards aren't supposed to have spells that are really good at hitpoint damage, but they may as well be allowed to try some more options. (On the other hand, unpopular spells may not be worth the effort unless they're easy programming tasks). Note that these numbers are directly taken from multiple D&D books, which is why their damage effectiveness is so out of whack and would have to be redone. (As a rule, sonic spells should be 20-30% less damage than fire equivalents, and that's in addition to the overall inferiority of bard DPS spells compared to sorc)

Bonefiddle, brd2. For 3 sec/lev, a single target takes 3d6 sonic damage per 3 sec. A fort save on each tick negates the rest of the spell. Also -20 Move Silently.
Whirling Blade: brd2 (also wiz2), a force-blade flies in a line, you make an attack roll modified by int (or cha), damage 1d8+int (or cha), crit 20/x3.
Dissonant Chord: brd3, burst of 1d4 sonic/level damage
Resonating Bolt: brd4, line of 1d4/lev sonic damage.
Interminable Echo: brd4, single target takes 5 ticks of 2d6 sonic. (Will negates after 1 tick). Also -10 listen.
Resounding Thunder: brd4, 30 second lingering AOE spell does 4d6 sonic per tick to enemies (fort half)
Stoneshatter: brd4, a stone target (some elementals/constructs) takes 1d6/lev damage, fort half
Cacophonic Burst: brd5, explosion of 1d6/lev sonic damage (max 15d6)
Channeled Sound Blast: brd5, popup with three icons with different casting times and cooldowns
fast: cone of 1d2/level sonic damage
normal: cone of 1d6/lev sonic damage
slow: cone of 1d10/lev sonic damage

[Raegoul]

Thanks for posting this Angelus 'cause they really do need some love

[EinarMal]

Great ideas, Bards definitely need some help. They are seen as "ok" because parties want them, the problem is their own contribution has become less and less.

In the next mod the only thing keeping them popular in groups will be inspire courage, DPS builds will fall even further behind everyone else due to the recent Paladin/Fighter/Ranger prestige buffage.

Casting focused Bards are getting killed by immunities and ridiculous mobs saves/SR that are balanced for max DC and SR that a wizard/sorc/cleric could hit.

So you are left with someone who sings songs up front in a quest, and then has to scramble to contribute much else. Yeah you can build for DPS, but with Kensai/Tempest/KOC/FB you are going to be doing half the damage of full BAB types to the point where you are barely contributing.

Healing is going to get tough as you mention, hit points for PC's will be in the 400-500 range, and without mass heal ability (or even heal) it is going to be hard to be a good healer.

I agree on the spells, but to me the songs are where it is at. That is the Bard's thing, and generally I have more songs than I know what to do with. Giving some of those options above for Bards in general (or based on your prestige path) would be a huge boost to the fun/viability of the class.

Thank you for posting this.

[Turial]

Makes sense that bards would get some DOT spells to reflect their combination of music and spells - Bonefiddle is a nice example.

[Ryss]

I fully agree with A_D and Einar. I was going to post something along these lines.

Since neither of you stated the root of the "bard problem", allow me to chime in.

I used to play bards exclusively before that great scroll nerf and that was the start of the big downwards-spiral of the bards.

As you know, bards are supposed to be jack-of-all-trades, meaning they can do a lot of things (which are healing, fighting, CC and buffing) but master of none. This definition alone should make one nervous because we all know "not being a master" thing doest not fly well with the "specialize or be gimped" DDO.

History of bard's (d)evolution in DDO:
Back when the level cap was still 10, bards reigned supreme. Although melee bards weren't particularly impressive back then (due to limited multiclassing options, limited number of feats, limited number of enhancements etc) CC/Healing/Mixed bards were very powerful. I am not counting buffing separately because any decent bard had (and still has) more or the less buffing potential regardless of build. If built accordingly, they could heal well, fight well and CC well. In addition to that they could use most (or all, depending on the build) scrolls in the game. And we had a lot of more scroll choices (Wall of Fire, Cloudkill being the most effective ones).

With the increase of the cap to 12 it got even better. Melee bards got more power with increasing feat and multiclassing options. Other ones continued to be great and fun. CC bards lost a little power in their spells due to some mobs being immune to CC but their fascinate got the bump with Music of the Dead and Music of the Makers.

...Then came the biggest blow (imo) to bards and UMD builds: Some scrolls of spells deemed too powerful by the devs and got removed from the vendors. This move was mostly motivated by the great fame of the Batman builds. However it struck my pure CC bard very hard. I am talking about the class power itself, am talking about the fun factor. Having all those scrolls in the pocket was very fun (not to mention very expensive but hell, it was a lot of fun). Then they increased the cooldown of scroll casting. This was the second blow. After that I left the game for 1 year. But that's another story.

Cap going up to 14 should have improved the bards because they got their 6th level spells. But things didn't go as expected. More and more mobs became immune to enhancement spells. In my eyes the level 14 cap was the final nail in the bard variety coffin. With the introduction of Warchanter enhancement people started building more melee oriented bards because other choices were neither fun nor powerful as they once were. Going melee was the only sensible solution. Healing did take a little blow too with the introduction of the Heal spell but at least bards could use the scrolls.

After TWF becoming the undisputed king of DPS and barbs and rangers getting more über each mod, melee bards began to get the short end of the stick too. Going THF made it (and every other class) gimp, going TWF was still possible but feat wise it was too costly and hurt the other aspects of the bard.

At 16 the situation got worse. Bard CC is a joke now due to mob immunities, bards being limited to 6th level spells, lower pool of SP etc. Meleeing isn't roses either, barbs and rangers raised the bar too much. Healing is probably a lot behind than clerics (I say probably because I don't have any experience with bard healing at that level, someone should clear this up for me. Up to the task Einar? ) The only thing that's left is buffing and we know how fun that it is, right?

Mod9
With Mod9 things will get even worse for the bards. They won't get improvements to their enhancements, or new enhancements for that matter. In every front they'll be left behind. Somehow I doubt that we'll see Mass Heal scrolls in vendors inventories. Don't even mention meleeing, upcoming PrEs will make the uber more uber. CC is dead already. Buffing will still be awesome fun though!

In addition to all this, I think bards have another problem. Currently they suffer from a personality disorder. What I mean to say is that they don't have enough defining class features. For example a healing bard is a poor cleric wannabe. CC bard is a wizard wannabe.

Solution:
Whatever A_D said. Bards need more features to call their own, instead of being copycats. Adding those new features via songs is also a great idea.

[Rog]

bring in SONG OF FURY........a rage song would rock songs stack

[moorewr]

Great posts, A_D.

I certainly hope they are getting, at a minimum, the second and third tiers of their specialties. Otherwise they will have fallen between melees and full-time casters again.

[Molotov]

my spellsinger used to be fun for me to play until everything started getting immunities to mind affecting spells, please help the bard

[IgorUnchained]

I agree with Ryess and AD.

I have a few bards in varying stages and levels. I have learned the ropes as far as bards are concerned and have been pretty successful with my builds. That said, all of the newer, higher end, content has been Bardbane for a while now. Blanket Immunities and undead aplenty have again turned bards into buffers/healers.

It is bad enough when you spend most of your young bard life running undead heavy quests (Catacombs, Delaras, Necro tombs, House J, to name a few) only to again become obsolete again more and more with each passing Mod.

[ehcsztein]

Originally Posted by IgorUnchained

...have again turned bards into buffers/healers.

Oh come now many high level bards are also dust collecting haggle-bots

But I agree the bard class just doesn't have the options/style that it really should relative to DnD.

Wasn't there a time... liek when cap was 10, that bards could take a feat or enhancement for debuffing songs? something like "Dark-Music" or similar? I think debuffing would be a good niche for bards to fit into.

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by ehcsztein

Wasn't there a time... liek when cap was 10, that bards could take a feat or enhancement for debuffing songs? something like "Dark-Music" or similar? I think debuffing would be a good niche for bards to fit into.

The problem is largely the resource that feeds the song. In DDO the demand for buffing vs debuffing is totally different: you have 6 PCs to buff, but 100-200 monsters you might debuff. Haste on a ranger helps you for 6 minutes; Slow on a mob helps you for 10 seconds (or even not at all, if someone Fingers him 2 seconds later)

So if bards have enough songs to feed debuffing, then their quantity of buff songs will be through the roof. A way to solve this is to give Virtuosos some debuff songs which don't use up daily songs, and that have a lower saving throw in exchange. I already gave an example of that above (Casual Fascinate), but you could open it up to other debuff songs.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Much as it pains me to agree with Angelus_dead - he hit the nail on the head with the OP - a lot of excellent suggestions here, and I hope the devs listen - my Bard thanks him for his post.

Garth

[Vyctor]

The only caution I would add is that when a character gains numerous feats as would some that receive Inspire Militarism and Inspire Legion enormous lag issues present as the game adds all those feats and then again when the effect wears off and all the feats are removed.

[Xyfiel]

I agree Bards need love. I also think many people plan to much for the here and now.

Almost 2 years ago I planned a song specced Bard, who went virtuoso, and explained why in the build I did this. So again I am going to explain why 2 years later, people who planned Bard's for level 14-16 didn't think ahead to what life as Bard will be at 20. Remember, unless your soloing, your buffing the specialists also.

1) Bards will always be 3 dc off in spellcasting, and have lower sps. You can specialize cc casting and still maybe be 75% as useful as a wiz/sorc.
2) Bards will never get heal, or for that matter, heal mass, and have lower sps. You won't even hit 50% of the healing power of a cleric.
3) Full specced melee will be around 75% of a dps build.
4) Bards most potent ability are their songs. Everything else a Bard can do, you could have gotten a different class to do better.
5) Bards have the 2nd best skillset. Use this to your advantage.

So my point is as we hit level 20, the gap for healing, cc spells, and dps widens, yet our songs and skills are still our two most powerful assets. Did you take advantage of our strengths?

[Angelus_dead]

Originally Posted by Xyfiel

Almost 2 years ago I planned a song specced Bard, who went virtuoso, and explained why in the build I did this. So again I am going to explain why 2 years later, people who planned Bard's for level 14-16 didn't think ahead to what life as Bard will be at 20. Remember, unless your soloing, your buffing the specialists also.

Um, are you still a Virtuoso? Do you intend to stay that way at level 17+?

[Xyfiel]

Yes and yes. Hello Mass Suggestion!

Ok, the character hasn't been played in a year so his items are under par right now. Part of that was my 6 month Navy deployment, the half was me working on new builds. I am in the process of making some spell/feat changes and reworking his equipment plans, so I can start playing him again. Virtuoso's are not that far off from the other two. Extra songs and duration still have their uses.

[Rav'n]

AD ....have I told you that I love you yet...?

As a player of ALL THREE Bard Builds... I would SO... stop playing my other Builds altogether with these types of bumps! (Even if they nerf them a bit at implimentation...)

[Cyr]

Great post A_D. I think all of your suggestions implemented straight out would work to make the bard viable. I would also say though that I think a good set of debuff songs would not be a bad idea for bards to get at high levels, probably in the form of enhancements. They would be pretty useless for trash mobs sure, but would be great for red/purple names since based upon precidence debuffs do effect them.

[Do'Urden]

Very nice post AD. I have 3 Bards myself. Just the other day, I was reflecting that it's somewhat demoralizing that the Bard class has been watered down to Inspire Courage + a handful of other buffs that people can generally get elsewhere + supplemental melee / supplemental heals. Don't get me wrong, the song buffs are powerful to a party, but the ability to decently CC through Enchantment-based spells has really taken a hit even for those Bards maxed out on CHA, feats, etc. to raise the DC & Spell Pen.

Most Bards I see in parties nowadays are Warchanter melee types with med to low CHA. Nothing wrong with that kind of build (I have 2 of them myself) but it's sad to see the other abilities being less useful to a raid party. I dream of a time when:

1) two or more Bards are welcomed into raid parties with open arms as opposed to groans
2) a good Bard can control the room in cap level content
3) someone rolls a Virtuoso because it's actually a useful build