Big Rock Candy the Mountain (Warforged 18f/2rog Evasion Stalwart Defender)

[Anthios888]

Big RockCandy the Mountain
Warforged ac intimitank
18 fighter/2 rogue, Stalwart Defender

UPDATE HERE

Constructed with sugar, spice, and an eye for raid tanking, this hulking green brute is just the character to catch the attention (and appetite) of devils, demons, and other nasty bosses.

Using the stalwart defender PRE line, this 18 fighter/2 rogue build is supremely survivable. With a potential for 90+ AC in a raid party, evasion, standing DR 6/- with a shield (more blocking, of course), intimidate in the 70s, and the ability to be reconstructed through most (though not all) healing curses, she makes a mean raid tank. But that’s not all! This wall of warforged is more flexible than she appears. When intimitanking isn’t needed, she has greater two weapon fighting with khopeshes, power attack, enough UMD for nofail reconstruct scrolls and shield 10 wands, and pick lock just for fun!

Fun, flexible, mean and green, this tank can take advantage of mod 9’s new enhancement and armor offerings to defeat Eberron’s unlimited foes.

This character met my expectations within two weeks of creation, and is now level 20 preparing for TR to 34 point build. AC ranges between 60 and a high of ~95 (no tumbling fudging the numbers, either)

STATS

36 STR: 16 base + 2 tome + 2 enhancements + 6 item + 5 levels + 1 litany + 4 stance
30 DEX: 16 base + 3 tome + 1 litany + 1 enhancement + 6 item + 3 exceptional
32 CON: 16 base + 2 tome + 1 litany + 1 exceptional + 2 enhancement + 6 item + 4 stance
14 INT: 11 + 2 tome + 1 litany
8 WIS: 6 base + 1 tome + 1 litany
18 CHA: 9 base + 2 tome + 1 litany + 6 item

LEVELING GUIDE

Rogue levels at 1 and 8. I liked having evasion for gianthold. To maximize skill points, take rogue later.

Selected feats:

1 - Mithral body
3 - Toughness
6 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
9 - Skill focus: Intimidate
12 - Bullheaded (Or Stunning Blow)
15 - (SF: UMD or Two weapon defense until +3 dex tome) Mithral fluidity
18 - Mithral fluidity (Past life: Fighter, if a reroll)

Fighter Feats:

2 fighter - Two weapon fighting
3 fighter - Weapon focus: Slashing
5 fighter - Weapon specialization: Slashing
7 fighter - Improved two weapon fighting
10 fighter - Improved critical: slashing
12 fighter - Greater two weapon fighting
14 fighter - Power Attack
16 fighter - Combat Expertise
18 fighter - Dodge
20 fighter - Greater weapon specialization: Slashing

Rogue feats:
8 (rogue) [evasion]

ARMOR CLASS BREAKDOWN

#1 Sword and Board:
10 base
5 mithral body
7 dragontouched docent
10 dex bonus w/ mithral fluidity, Armor Mastery 3, and Tower Shield Mastery3
1 alchemical docent
9 mithral tower shield
1 alchemical shield
3 dodge sovreign rune
4 insight shroud
2 chaosguardes
5 protection
1 dodge feat
3 Stalwart defender III
5 Combat expertise
4 stalwart defender stance
2 stalwart defender set bonus
72 beholder AC

3 barkskin pot
1 haste clickie returner
76 typical self-buffed AC

2 ranger 12 barkskin
4 Inspire Heroics "AC song"
2 Recitation
5 Paladin aura
1 Defender of Siberys Aura
90 raid-buffed AC
95 shield blocking AC


#2 Two weapon fighting DPS mode:
-10 tower shield + ritual
-5 combat expertise
+4 shield wand
65 solo to 79 party DPS mode


SKILLS:

Intimidate:
23 Ranks
6 Greensteel
6 Stalwart Defender III
4 Charisma modifier
15 Competence item
4 Fighter intimidate IV
3 Skill focus: Intimidate
2 Bullheaded or past life: Fighter
4 Greater Heroism
1 Yugoloth Charisma potion
----
68 intimidate (+2 bard, +2 monk, +1 luck - 71)

Use Magic Device:
23 Ranks
6 Greensteel
4 Charisma modifier
2 Ring of the Silver Concord
4 Greater Heroism
---
39 UMD (42 UMD with Skill Focus or Seven-Fingered Gloves)


Hit Points:
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic favor
12 Rogue II
180 Fighter 18
73 Toughness + Fighter toughness III + racial toughness II
30 Greater False Life
45 Greensteel
220 11 con modifier
---
40 yugoloth potion
630 HP [650 in minos legens] (730 potential with madstone boots)


SUGGESTED EQUIPMENT

Mineral II khopesh with +4 insight (as well as other shroud weapons - lightning 2 khopeshes for max DPS)

Levik's shield with AC ritual
[epic shield with +7 enhancement bonus]

Dragontouched Docent - Greater false life / +1 dex / Dodge +3
also one with GFL / 20% healing amp / Destruction
Bracers: Chaosguardes with resistance ritual
Goggles: +6 cha skills / air guard (swap for Tharne's in DPS mode)
Helmet: Minos legens [Epic Shining Crest of St. Markus]
Necklace: Stalwart defender - 6 con, Lesser action boost, set bonus +2 AC
Trinket: Litany of the Dead
Cloak: Wretched Twilight
Belt: 45 HP Mineral II +5 protection / heavy fortification
Gloves: Vile Blasphemy (6 dex, +3 umd) [Epic Spectral Gloves]
Boots: Swap - Firestorm greaves, Striders, Spiked Boots, [Epic] Golden Greaves (DR/3 [4]), Boots of Anchoring
Ring1- Stalwart defender +6 strength +1 con +2 dex
Ring2- Circle of Hatred (resist 5 / intimidate 15)


ENHANCEMENTS

Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

[cforce]

Yeah __ I love the WF Stalwart Defender template. If I were rebuilding mine today, I'd be going 18 Fighter levels, definitely. (I'm tracking to a Stalwart 12/KotC 6/Rogue 2 instead.)

The one thing I rather see more of here is saves -- namely, Will Save. By my calculation, it looks like you've got:

6 base
5 resist item
4 GH
1 ritual
-1 stat
3 stance (situational)
-------
18

While the 'take you out of action' will saves are hardly commonplace, if you're called on to take aggro in a quest where the casters use a will save spell (say, Greater Command, or Symbol of Stunning), it's very hard to do a good job maintaining aggro.

My personal preference would be to give up one point of AC -- that last point of dex bonus is *very* expensive, because you need:

4 stat points for 16 dex vs. 14 dex. (If you're assuming a +3 dex tome, you have what you need for TWF with 14)
1 feat (Mithral Fluidity) OR 6 AP (Fighter Armor Mastery III)
Another 6 AP (Tower Shield Mastery III)

Using the build resources for the 1 point of AC, you could get 4 more points of starting wisdom, Iron Will, and Warforged Construct Thinking III. -1 AC, +7 will save. I'd also try to find a way to fit in the +6 WIS (maybe on a shroud item) for a net +10, getting up to 28. That won't be "save on a 2", but renders you far less vulnerable to casters shutting down your aggro control.

Again, this is "building for the exception", but I generally like to minimize my weak points when I'm building something for aggro control, rather than maximize my strong points.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I like the idea of improving the will save here. But alternatively to putting 4 points into wisdom after dropping the starting dex to 14, you could spend 3 more points on cha and one on int, netting you an additional skill point per level and a base 12 cha. Then instead of taking Iron Will, you could take Force of Personality. This would net you one less will save than bosting wis and taking Iron Will once you get a +3 cha tome (assuming you would get a +3 wis tome eventually too, otherwise the will save would both be the same either way), but would have the added benefits of further boosting your intimidate and UMD, and would allow you to put skill points into jump or balance on your fighter levels. Also, the second rogue level could be put off until lvl 10, saving another skill point or two when maxing out UMD at that point. Plus there would be no need to work a +6 wis item into the gear layout.

Of course it is worth mentioning that by doing this, you cannot level up beyond 17 until you get a +3 dex tome without giving up the ability to get Greater TWF.

[jmonty]

don't forget the blocking ac since you can hold aggro with intim. is it +5 for defender III?

[TheJusticar]

I do like this build quite a bit, and I also agree with the posters above regarding will saves (and can be easily fixed by giving 1 AC of dodge). My only concern is that it is extremely gear and +3 tome dependent (Litany, gloves and circle ring, for instance, specially hard to obtain). However, if anyone has access to these, not a bad time investment on this build at all.

Godspeed.

[nbhs275]

HMMMMm...can you use a towershield and have evasion running?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Originally Posted by nbhs275

HMMMMm...can you use a towershield and have evasion running?

Yes. From the compendium:

Evasion can only be used if the character is wearing Light or No Armor and is Not Heavily Encumbered.

There is no restriction on shields.

[Thanimal]

Over the last year or so, I've developed a HUGE bias against Sword and Board. cforce has tried to convince me otherwise, but so far has failed. So please take my comments in the proper light: I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just trying to learn.

Through my anti-S&B colored glasses, here's what I see:

In DPS mode, this build has both worse AC and worse DPS than The Hate Monster.
In tank mode, this build has the same AC as, but roughly half the DPS of, The Hate Monster.

Unless I'm just wrong about the numbers (which is always very possible), it seems to me the only advantage of going S&B here is having a full-fledged Turtle Mode with huge DR from an actively-blocking Tower Shield. Is that really useful?

I really want to believe that S&B is worthwhile, because it's such a fundamental aspect of D&D. But I'm having trouble seeing it. Can anyone bring me into the light?

[rimble]

I've worked out something very similar. I worked out a bunch of things, and I don't think the 30 Dex version is worth it...two Feats, all those APs, for 2 AC? It's just bad economics...stick with 26 Dex.

[Anthios888]

Originally Posted by Thanimal

Through my anti-S&B colored glasses, here's what I see:

In DPS mode, this build has both worse AC and worse DPS than The Hate Monster.
In tank mode, this build has the same AC as, but roughly half the DPS of, The Hate Monster.

Unless I'm just wrong about the numbers (which is always very possible), it seems to me the only advantage of going S&B here is having a full-fledged Turtle Mode with huge DR from an actively-blocking Tower Shield.

You have an awesome build that I respect very much and would recommend it to others – looks fun! -- but the numbers you’re using to make those kinds of comparisons just don’t give an accurate picture.

You achieve your “peak ac” using clickies, a 20-second boost (I have that too, but didn’t include it), and fighting only against your two favored enemies. You include wearing kamas in wind stance with lightning strike (which doesn't bypass DR on most bosses), and include combat expertise in your DPS mode AC calculation. You can’t really expect to hate-tank with your character using kamas that don’t bypass DR.

When you look at more solid self-buffed and raid-buffed numbers, my build is ahead in AC by 5 to 10 points- and that’s significant. After running elite Towers of Despair, I can tell you that even with AC in the 80s, you get hit. Therefore, every point of AC is a 5% damage reduction. That’s why I built this character to be able to solidly get extremely high numbers while still wearing a khopesh.

You say you hate S&B – I’m with you, that’s why I built this character to also gtwf with khopesh and fighter enhancements. I’m building the Mountain with dps but also high 60s intimidate and the ability to tank exceedingly high to-hit bosses as content gets rougher. That’s why both twf and shields have a place in this character’s play.

I'm happy to compare numbers with you more if you like - but I wanted to keep my response as concise as possible

[Nomical]

I'm impressed by how fast this character has "grown up." It seems like many ac characters are a squishy pain until they get all geared up with 20th raid completions. This gal's only about 2 weeks old, but is already awesome in VoD and has been fun to level with all the way up. Looking forward to getting her booted up and going at Horoth before long!

[cforce]

Originally Posted by Anthios888

When you look at more solid self-buffed and raid-buffed numbers, my build is ahead in AC by 5 to 10 points- and that’s significant. After running elite Towers of Despair, I can tell you that even with AC in the 80s, you get hit. Therefore, every point of AC is a 5% damage reduction. That’s why I built this character to be able to solidly get extremely high numbers while still wearing a khopesh.

I think you're a bit off in your math here, although I agree that you do have higher AC than the Hate Monster using like-for-like equipment. Rejiggering the Hate Monster's AC calculations to match your assumptions for end-game equipment, and leaving out favored enemy and fighter AC boost, Hate Monster would clock in at:

10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
11 dex
8 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
3 stance
2 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
1 Centered Bonus
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
68 beholder-proof

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
2 Shield
---
74 self-buffed

So, we're talking 2-to-4 points of difference depending on whether we're talking beholder-proof or self-buffed. Depending on whether you factor in FE, that's another +1: Evil Outsiders+Undead is pretty good tanking coverage for now, but may not be in the future.

So I think this comes out ahead, but by a small margin. I think the argument for S&B tanking at all still needs to come back to the additional grazing hit damage reduction granted by using a tower shield. (Which I think is a perfectly good reason!)

[jmonty]

Originally Posted by Thanimal

Unless I'm just wrong about the numbers (which is always very possible), it seems to me the only advantage of going S&B here is having a full-fledged Turtle Mode with huge DR from an actively-blocking Tower Shield. Is that really useful?

sure. it depends on the situation. for example if the healer gets taken out, it is useful to be able to grab the agro of all the mobs while taking little to no damage.

[Thanimal]

Thanks for the detailed response!

A minor clarification: I definitely would never count CE in DPS mode. My claim regarding "DPS mode" comes from HM dropping 5 from turning off CE whereas this gal drops 15 from turning off CE and losing her Tower Shield. And because of Tempest, DPS is higher.

(Dammit! I really don't want to turn this into a "my build teh uber," but it just seems like such a good point of comparison for why I've become so anti-S&B lately. I wish I could compare to somebody else's build to make it obvious that I'm not trying to inflate my own ego, but I'm afraid HM is the most suitable direct comparison. So I'll have to live with any future accusations of being an egomaniac, I guess. )

[Thanimal]

Originally Posted by cforce

I think you're a bit off in your math here, although I agree that you do have higher AC than the Hate Monster using like-for-like equipment. Rejiggering the Hate Monster's AC calculations to match your assumptions for end-game equipment, and leaving out favored enemy and fighter AC boost, Hate Monster would clock in at:

10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
11 dex
8 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
3 stance
2 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
1 Centered Bonus
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
68 beholder-proof

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
2 Shield
---
74 self-buffed

So, we're talking 2-to-4 points of difference depending on whether we're talking beholder-proof or self-buffed. Depending on whether you factor in FE, that's another +1: Evil Outsiders+Undead is pretty good tanking coverage for now, but may not be in the future.

So I think this comes out ahead, but by a small margin. I think the argument for S&B tanking at all still needs to come back to the additional grazing hit damage reduction granted by using a tower shield. (Which I think is a perfectly good reason!)

While I think counting FE is pretty legit (for now!), counting Shield may be a little more dubious -- that only works if HM takes the "power gamer recommended" path of maxing UMD, and then uses a Wand of Shield(10th) (with a slight chance of failure, but enough to get one before losing patience). Otherwise, HM breifly drops CE to reactivate the Shield, which is probably unacceptable.

So I believe the typical Raid scenario is either a difference of 1 or 3, depending on the HM's investment in UMD.

I actually thought is was 0 or 2 when I did my previous back-of-envelope, so I stand corrected. In the d20 system, a single point of AC can mean taking HALF the damage in the right scenario.

So even though the "1 or 3" difference kinda "sounds" small, it may not be in certain specific situations.

That said, several folks have suggested changes that could alter that comparison all the way to "-1 or +1." So I think I'd recommend against that -- a key selling point of this build is eeking out those last few points of AC.

[Anthios888]

The problem with stats spread as thin as the Hate Monster's are that with only 474 at cap 20 you can be one-shotted by Horoth's disintigrate. Your hp aren't a problem in most content, but are if you're trying to argue that you're the ideal tank for end-game raiding.

AC doesn't matter vs one-shot spells, but hp aside for a moment. For Thanimal's build, I've taken the numbers based on what he wrote in the build. Your numbers above have added all kinds of things, including it seems at least one +4 tome. If you want to suggest gear and tome upgrades to improve the numbers, that's great, but do it in a productive way - in his thread where people interested in his build can see it and decide how practical it is for them.

A note on gear -- gear is a serious part of the creative building process. Deciding on build goals and figuring out how to elegantly fit in what you need to be as good as possible is something I take seriously. I've clearly laid out my gear suggestions in my post, and it is all gear that is reasonably achievable to me for a serious character. I've only included one +3 tome - and that I marked as a long-term upgrade and didn't include in my base AC calculations. I have also responded to requests on many of my builds to suggest modifications for people who can't afford tomes, don't run the Abbot, etc.

Monk builds have lots going for them but also end up spread thin on stat points. Another reason I went with the Mountain's level split is that I'm able to use heal/reconstruct scrolls without fail, use resurrection, and all kinds of other buffs, scrolls, and wands that make play survivable and fun even outside of raids including soloing, and shortmanning. UMD gear is rough to work in and is much more worth it if you're getting nofail heal scrolls.

P.S. Correction - The Mountain loses only 11 ac taking off her tower shield, not 15. A further improvement would reduce that to 10 if I pick up two weapon defense.

[Thanimal]

Originally Posted by Anthios888

The problem with stats spread as thin as the Hate Monster's are that with only 474 at cap 20 you can be one-shotted by Horoth's disintigrate. Your hp aren't a problem in most content, but are if you're trying to argue that you're the ideal tank for end-game raiding.

Excellent point.

For X's build, I've taken the numbers based on what he wrote in the build. Your numbers above have added all kinds of things, including it seems at least one +4 tome.

I don't believe so. It's all the equipment mentioned in the thread, and it seems to me that cforce tried pretty hard to make it match up with the equipment of this thread. The one dubious assumption that I didn't catch before is Wind Stance (thus 11 dex instead of 10). That's theoretically available for all-out tank mode, but usually wouldn't be in use. I'm not sure if it should be counted.

If there is specific bogus stuff you see in there, I for one would definitely like to know!

I've only included one +3 tome - and that I marked as a long-term upgrade and didn't include in my base AC calculations.

It appears to me the full +10 DEX in included, which includes the +3 Tome (and +3 exceptional bonus). What am I missing?

Monk builds have lots going for them but also end up spread thin on stat points. Another reason I went with the Mountain's level split is that I'm able to use heal/reconstruct scrolls without fail, use resurrection, and all kinds of other buffs, scrolls, and wands that make play survivable and fun even outside of raids including soloing, and shortmanning. UMD gear is rough to work in and is much more worth it if you're getting nofail heal scrolls.

This is a very good point. That's a huge value add.

I think I might be starting to "get it" now! The more focused nature of the build allows various good things to come along, with two big ones being mentioned above: a lot more HP and FAR better UMD.

Cool! I enjoyed the discussion and learned some things. And on that note, I've just rated the thread a 5 and given the OP rep.

[Athermal]

Hello Rock,

I really like what you've done here. So much so I may do one myself. One question, where's the stunning blow feat? Am I just getting too old school these days? (answer lightly.)

[Anthios888]

I LOVE stunning blow, but this build is pretty tight for feats, not to mention AP. You'd have to drop one of the straight up DPS feats to make it happen. I'm sure you could work it in somewhere if you wanted it - especially until you get to 30 dex by dropping the 2nd mithral fluidity.

[Thanimal]

FYI, just linked over here from a fellow looking for an evasion tank. I believe he was more interested in the relatively pure tank (as opposed to my pet Monk splash option), and think this is the best "pure" evasion tank build/thread at the moment.

Out of curiosity, any updates on the build? Tanking along well in new end-game stuff?