Guide: Is my <insert rogue skill> high enough?

[cforce]

**********************NOTE************************ *******
** Folks, thanks once again for all the valuable information that has been
** contributed to this guide. As of 4/15/08, I'm going into retirement!
** Impaqt has been kind enough to take over the guide, and you can
** find the latest version *here*.
** Happy hunting!
**
** -cforce
**
** Update: I'm back! Alas, my rogue is still retired, so my ownership of this
** guide is staying retired with her!
************************************************** *****


Introduction
This guide is a consolidation of answers to some frequently asked questions about the 'big 4' rogue skills (Disable/Open/Search/Spot), including:
- How can I boost my skills?
- How high do Trap/Secret Door/Lock DC's go?
...and other assorted questions that frequently come up in the rogue forum. What I *won't* try to do here is exhaustively document the DC of every trap, door, and lock at different difficulty levels; that's simply too hard to keep up-to-date when those values occasionally change!
I try to keep most of what is presented here as 'just the facts', but will include a few editorial comments, which I will call out to distinguish from the factual data. Editorial comments will be in italics.

Ranks
I won't get into build recommendations too much here, but I will give this one -- if you're a pure rogue, keep max ranks in Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, and Spot (level+3 ranks). If you're a multiclass, you may be doing some optimization and let a few skills lag behind, but I'd recommend trying to keep close to maxed as a multi-class, too. When people let one of these four skills fall behind, it is typically Spot that is the first to go -- with repeated runs through quests, rote memorization of trap locations can sometimes (but not always!) be substituted for a high Spot score.

Current max ranks for lvl 14 character: 17.

Items
Note: Only the highest item bonus of a particular type will apply amongst items you have equipped.
Randomly generated items give +1/3/5/7/10/11/13/15 to any skill. Some named items also give a small "Luck" bonus, which will stack with an item bonus.
See this thread for a detailed inventory of known static/unique items in the game, and where they can be found.

It's reasonable to assume that you can find/buy a +13 item for nearly any skill on your way to level 14, with sufficient time spent browsing the auction house. So, for those following along at home, we've got a base of 30 points -- 17 ranks + 13 item bonus -- that will be relatively achievable by nearly any rogue build. Even many of the multiclasses with only a few levels of rogue can usually find a way to get in this neighborhood.

Tools
I advocate working on your Free Agents favor early, as the purchasable tools give you a *significant* guaranteed boost to Disable Device and Open Lock.

Rusty Theives' Tools: no bonus
Theives' Tools: +1 Open and Disable**
Masterwork Thieves' Tools: +2 Open and Disable**
+1 Thieves' Tools: +3 Open and Disable***
+2 Thieves' Tools: +4 Open and Disable***
+3 Thieves' Tools: +5 Open and Disable****
+4 Thieves' Tools: +6 Open and Disable****
+5 Thieves' Tools: +7 Open and Disable

** - purchasable from a vendor
*** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at first rank
**** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at second rank

So long as you make sure to hit Free Agents quests on your way to 14, you're now tracking to a 'guaranteed' total of +36 for Disable and Open rolls, and 30 for Search and Spot, before making any significant build decisions. Add in an unlimited supply of Heroism potions (easy enough to afford by level 14), and you're working with a base of 38/30 before making build decisions.

Tradeoffs
Here's where things start getting interesting, with different builds going in different directions. Simply having max ranks, upgrading your equipment when you can, and getting Free Agent Favor/Heroism potions will enable you to be sucessful with 90% of the game's content on Normal. To expect to have success on Elite, some additional investment will need to be made in the form of feats, enhancements, good ability scores, and buffs from other players.

Feats
All feats stack.
Nimble Fingers - +2 Open, +2 Disable
Alertness - +2 Spot (and Listen)
Skill Focus: "*" - +3 to * (Disable/Open/Search/Spot)

Enhancements
Class Enhancements stack with Race enhancements, but not with other Class enhancements. In fact, you generally can't take similar enhancements from two different classes - for example, the Rogue Skill Seach enhancement, when taken, will prevent you from selecting the Ranger Skill Search enhancement.

Rogue/Skill [Disable/Open/Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Disable, Open, Search, or Spot
Rogue/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest
Rogue/Way of the Mechanic - +2 to Disable/Open/Search/Spot (and Repair)

Ranger/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Spot or Search
Ranger/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest

Drow/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Dwarf/Skill Search I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search
Elf/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Human/Human Versatility I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest

Attributes
Int modifier: +modifier to Disable, Search
Dex modifier: +modifier to Open
Wis modifier: +modifier to Spot

Innate Racial Bonuses
Drow: +2 Search and Spot
Elf: +2 Search and Spot
Dwarf: +2 Search

Buffs
(In most cases these will come from outside sources.)
Competence bonus:
Bard/Inspire Competence: +2 all skills (never self-applicable)
Morale bonuses (do not stack with each other):
Heroism/Good Hope: +2 all skills (note that Heroism is 'assumed' above form a potion as a starting base)
Greater Heroism: +4 all skills

High Water Marks
How high do DC's go? This frequently changes, and all the numbers here should be taken as "what the community currently thinks they are", and not absolute gospel. While I keep track of new observations that folks post on the forums (as well as my own experiences), there's no guarantee that some of these haven't been changed, nor that people haven't occasionally made mistakes while gathering data. But, to my knowledge, it represents the best data the community has on the different values.

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device: 75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

*Everything Else*
Disable Device: somewhere greater than a 57 modifier for 0% chance of blowing traps. Foundation of Discord trap with DC at least 62, possibly higher.
Open Locks: +39-48 modifier. Locked door in Fleshmaker's Lab, has been failed on a total 58, and succeeded on a total 68.
Search: <44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.
Spot: >>39 39 Was not enough to spot traps in Rainbow in the Dark on Hard.

* - I use 'modifier' rather than 'skill' on Open and Disable because the Tools contribution will not be reflected on your character sheet when you look at your skill tab, but will only be added into the modifier at the time of the die roll. Note that also due to the die rolls, I've cited modifiers below the DC's -- in the case of open locks, you can reroll until you get a 20. In the case of disable device, you can reroll until you get (DC - 5) or lower, at which point the trap blows, so a modifier 5 under the DC will always get you the trap eventually. Slightly off-topic, but important to know: you will use whichever tools are "first" - ie, top left corner, first inventory tab is your 'first inventory slot'.

Editorial: Must you meet all of these DC's with your build? No. These numbers are listed more as a reference to know when to quit raising a score!

Can you decide to try and build with getting 100% success on all these DCs? It's certainly possible with some builds, but requires a heavy feat and enhancement commitment. Like every build decision, it's a trade-off. What I'd suggest is to look for which ways you can most efficiently raise your scores with enhancements. The most action-point-efficient ways are with Rogue Skills Boost and Way of the Mechanic. (Although Way of the Mechanic comes with a fair amount of prereqs -- you may be taking most of them already!) Early levels of skill-specific enhancements are cheap, but by the time you get to level IV, getting another +1 to all 4 scores requires 16 AP, a *huge* cost! As with any build, decide what your goals are, and what tradeoffs you want to make to achieve those goals.

A common refrain on the Rogue forums is, "you should build your rogue with at least 14 INT," but I disagree with conventional wisdom on this point. I'd certainly recommend building your rogue to have good skills relative to the "Everything Else" DCs listed above. Higher INT is *one* way to do that, but not the only way! For example, I can imagine a hypothetical Dwarven Rogue who start with (gasp) INT 8! He takes 17 ranks of the 'big 4', Skill Focus: Search, Skill Focus: Disable, Nimble Fingers, Rogue Skill Search IV, Rogue Skill Disable IV, Rogue Skill Boost IV, Way of the Mechanic, and Dwarven Skill Search IV. For search, starting with the 30 'assumed' from above, he's got an additional +17 (counting the boost, and the -1 INT penalty) for 47 total. For disable, he's got the 38 'assumed' from above, and an additional +15 (again, counting the boost and the -1 INT penalty), for +53 total. Only a Greater Heroism and Rabbit Gloves away from safely handling all content except the Cabal Trap, with an INT of 8? Now, would I want to play a build like this? Nope. Point is, don't simply start with a high INT because folks say you should; start with the combination of INT, feats, and enhancements you need to be comfortable with your skills.

Hopefully this information has been helpful. If you see anything missing or incorrect, either post to this thread or send me a PM, and I'll take a look and make additions and corrections. Happy tinkering!

[tr0tsky]

Very Handy.

I think there's a secret door in Hiding In Plain Sight that required closer to a 40 search on Elite, but I'll have to go back and check. I'll post here next time I do it.

You can also get +3 thieves' tools from the Free Agents guy, but why would you, when you can get +4 at the same rank? :P

[cforce]

Originally Posted by tr0tsky

Very Handy.

Thanks. I'm hoping we can replace some of the repetetive question answering in the forum w/link pasting .

Originally Posted by tr0tsky

You can also get +3 thieves' tools from the Free Agents guy, but why would you, when you can get +4 at the same rank? :P

So noted.

[tr0tsky]

Originally Posted by cforce

Thanks. I'm hoping we can replace some of the repetetive question answering in the forum w/link pasting .

One other comment. Counting "Docent of the Tomb" in static rewards is kinda silly, considering only WF can use it

AFAIK, there's no *real* +search static rewards.

[Crarites]

If you are listing +10 disable items add +11 with race restiction items as well.

[Raiken]

probably one of the most informative threads ive ever seen, its nice to have only one place to look for reviewing my skills and viability.

[cforce]

Updated.

[tr0tsky]

Originally Posted by cforce

Updated.

Woo, stickied

[stealth]

WhAT?!?! DC 61!!!!!! has Turbine gone mad?!

[cforce]

It's actually not *that* outlandish, if you start by assuming most Rogues have a high starting Dex.

Even with very conservative Dex-boost assumptions: Human build, starting with only 16, taking only one Dex enhancement (Rogue Dex III) and the bracers from Tangleroot (+3), we're at 22, for a +6 bonus.

13 ranks
+7 Skill Perception
+10 RAB
+6 Dex Bonus
+7 OL item (static reward)
+1 Rabbit Gloves (static reward)
+6 (+4 Tools, now purchasable w/Favor)
+20 Die roll
-----------
70 DC unlockable!

If you want to push it to the limit, you could assume a Dex-maxed Halfling/Elf build, and a +10 Item found, which gets it up to 77 DC attainable -- 79 if you assume a +2 tome and a +5 Dex item!

[cforce]

Sigh -- editted to reflect tr0tsky's discovery of a trap in Hiding in Plain Sight on Elite with DC between 52-55.

[tr0tsky]

Originally Posted by cforce

If you want to push it to the limit, you could assume a Dex-maxed Halfling/Elf build, and a +10 Item found, which gets it up to 77 DC attainable -- 79 if you assume a +2 tome and a +5 Dex item!

I had a +60 to my open lock roll when I was in TF yesterday

[Juika]

How does one determine the DC of a trap/door etc?

I never know when I should pop my RAB before even making an attempt.

[tr0tsky]

Originally Posted by Juika

How does one determine the DC of a trap/door etc?

I never know when I should pop my RAB before even making an attempt.

um...well, you can get a very limited list at: DDOWiki Trap/Lock project

Feel free to update with any info you get

[Sani_Medicor]

Originally Posted by cforce

Disable Device: +50 modifier*
Hiding in Plain Sight elite traps have DC of 52-55, may blow on a modified roll of 50 (ie, roll 1, add +49) if DC is 55

I guess I'll be dropping rogue's dexterity for rogue's action boost. The good news is my ranger can use my +3 dex ring now. The bad news is I need a +2 or +4 dex item and my chance to hit will drop significantly.

[Khallaya]

Guess we'll see more pure rogues dropping a feat into SF: DD now. With NF and SF: DD (and base 14 int + foxes clickable/wand/+4 int item) you can hit 50 dd without boost.

Sadly since my ingenuity is only +6 i'm one point short =(

[Sani_Medicor]

Originally Posted by Khallaya

Guess we'll see more pure rogues dropping a feat into SF: DD now. With NF and SF: DD (and base 14 int + foxes clickable/wand/+4 int item) you can hit 50 dd without boost.

Sadly since my ingenuity is only +6 i'm one point short =(

I started with 12 int and I'm using a +7 dd item and no int item, so I'm stuck with going back to boost.

[Khallaya]

You can get puzzle cap from STK =). You can also buy foxes cunning wands/potions/scrolls. Personally I never dropped boost, I like it to much for haggle, UMD, Jump, and blackguards.

[Sani_Medicor]

Originally Posted by Khallaya

You can get puzzle cap from STK =). You can also buy foxes cunning wands/potions/scrolls. Personally I never dropped boost, I like it to much for haggle, UMD, Jump, and blackguards.

I'll do the foxes cunning...no way to the ugly hat. I have a +2 int ring...I just have other rings I normally prefer to wear.

[Khallaya]

Yeah, the hat is ugly, I swap it with my new lampshade and a bandit mask when I need to max out my DD/search. with the future addition of /showhelmet on|off i'll probably wear it more =).

I swap ALOT of gear, I have a clickable collection and 6 hotkey bars full of gear/wands/potions. If you don't swap now, it won't take long before you get use to it and find yourself shopping for as many clickables as you can get your hands on.