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MrWizard
01-26-2010, 02:14 AM
and now for the news...


D&D banned in WI prisons putting an end to wandering gangs of halfling thieves
http://www.wkowtv.com/global/story.asp?s=11876814



MADISON, Wis. - A man serving life in prison for first-degree intentional homicide has lost his legal battle to play Dungeons and Dragons behind bars.

Kevin T. Singer filed a lawsuit against officials at Wisconsin's Waupun prison after a policy was initiated in 2004 to eradicate all Dungeons and Dragons game materials among concerns that playing it promotes gang-related activity.

The 33-year-old Singer is a devoted player of the fantasy role-playing game that involves recruiting others to play as a group. He argued that his First Amendment rights were being violated and demanded that Dungeons and Dragons material confiscated from his cell be returned.

But the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Monday that the prison's policy was reasonable.

Bosco
01-26-2010, 02:25 AM
Wow, talk about harsh. This poor guy only killed someone and now he can't play D&D in prison. Keep fighting the man Singer.

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 02:53 AM
which part of the 1st amendment allows you to have printed materials and dice in a jail cell, again? Talk about it all you want, its the materials that are banned. ****, some people and their entitlement complexes these days

Rasczak
01-26-2010, 03:22 AM
lol

Poor guy can't remember the ruleset? Make it up you twit that's what DnD is all about :D

And more than two halflings together whether they know each other or not MUST be construed as illegal and they should be dragged away by the ears. Noone needs them breeding ;)

Samadhi
01-26-2010, 03:28 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 03:30 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

nope... its definitely a gateway to gang activity. buncha middle aged guys sittin around a dungeon, working together to plan raids... min/maxxing off of each other's skills...

Rasczak
01-26-2010, 03:35 AM
nope... its definitely a gateway to gang activity. buncha middle aged guys sittin around a dungeon, working together to plan raids... min/maxxing off of each other's skills...


You forgot about the part where these group of guys intentionally plan the death of another because they disagree with his life choices and opinions. And then they carry the murder out willfully and without prejudice.

In planning the murder they also make sure they are fully stocked up on arms and take reward after the murder has been committed....

Which would be terrible if it wasn't for that little issue about it being FAKE!

Greydeath
01-26-2010, 03:36 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

+1
Definitely the point that caught my eye...

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 03:40 AM
You forgot about the part where these group of guys intentionally plan the death of another because they disagree with his life choices and opinions. And then they carry the murder out willfully and without prejudice.

In planning the murder they also make sure they are fully stocked up on arms and take reward after the murder has been committed....

Which would be terrible if it wasn't for that little issue about it being FAKE!

its fake, but it is convicted killers we're talking about :p many of which probably killed over a D&D argument to begin with XD

besides, dice are a choking hazzard, keep away from small children and crazed lunatics hell bent on killing someone, anyone, or themselves :p

QuintonReece
01-26-2010, 03:44 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

Nope. Some of us find more important things to get bothered over.

Rasczak
01-26-2010, 03:55 AM
its fake, but it is convicted killers we're talking about :p many of which probably killed over a D&D argument to begin with XD

besides, dice are a choking hazzard, keep away from small children and crazed lunatics hell bent on killing someone, anyone, or themselves :p

Well yes there is the matter of "I killed those children in cold blooded murder because the voices told me to but that doesn't mean you get to be inhumane and stop me playing DnD"



But...My only point for this entire thread.....jail is to punish people with the slim chance of rehabilitation (yeah right).

What could be more punishing than stopping that criminal geek from playing his DnD? :D I rest my case...as for the rest of it..worse laws have been passed. When it comes to criminals I'd skip it down a few piles of requests...not really my problem to make them comfortable

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 04:02 AM
Well yes there is the matter of "I killed those children in cold blooded murder because the voices told me to but that doesn't mean you get to be inhumane and stop me playing DnD"



But...My only point for this entire thread.....jail is to punish people with the slim chance of rehabilitation (yeah right).

What could be more punishing than stopping that criminal geek from playing his DnD? :D I rest my case...as for the rest of it..worse laws have been passed. When it comes to criminals I'd skip it down a few piles of requests...not really my problem to make them comfortable

imo all those jails should be like arizona tent city... buncha tents out in the sun, no games, no cards, no tv, just slave labor.

or we could just send em all to some colonial island and leave em there to rot... then come back a few years later and laugh at the new country XD

Irinis
01-26-2010, 04:06 AM
They played with dice. Dice are used for GAMBLING. Gambling leads to criminal activity, especially among convicted criminals. Therefore, the D&D was just a coverup for the real activities going on in that jail cell. Plus, all that satanic stuff about dragons and demons and devils... it's just plain evil!

Right?

Anneliese
01-26-2010, 04:32 AM
You can simulate an n-sided-dice with pen and paper.

DM writes a random number from 1-n
Player writes a random number from 1-n

Add them up, modulo n, add 1 -> random number from 1-n (unless the DM and the player team up)

harold2560
01-26-2010, 10:46 AM
some of you guys make me laugh. I am a corrections officer. Do i think DND promotes gang activity? About as much as a few guys playing old maid with a deck of cards. Rediculous policy put in place by a higher up who doesnt like nor understand DND.

FWIW Inmates are humans and should have some rights too. Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Kralgnax
01-26-2010, 10:52 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"
And the forces of stupidity roll on to another victory.

That's an arbitrary and unreasonable thing to do, but arbitrary and unreasonable appears to be the order of the day, alas *cough*TSA*cough*. Remember kids, incarceration is the punishment here, the dude wasn't sentenced to "No D&D for you."

Aspenor
01-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Stupid ruling.

I have to agree with those here that mention that his sentence was life in prison (aka lost your freedom). The sentence doesn't say "life without D&D."

I cannot fathom how they decided it promoted gang related activity. Maybe the guy had two gaming groups and they decided to PvP IRL?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:03 AM
Absolutely stupid. Prison activity should be restricted to gang rape parties, no board games!

And everyone knows that D&D does not promote gang activity, it promotes satanism. (Although it is true that all Blood & Crypt members must be able to pass a test on the D&D core handbooks before being initiated)

Gol
01-26-2010, 11:05 AM
1) You lose a lot of constitutional "rights" while in prison. It's prison, not vacation. If you want to debate this, be prepared to defend inmates' rights to possess firearms (2nd amendment) while incarcerated.
2) Yes, the guy that ordered D&D banned is obviously a moron.
3) Want to play D&D (or possess firearms)? Stay out of prison. Problem solved.

eldrytch75
01-26-2010, 11:07 AM
and now for the news...


D&D banned in WI prisons putting an end to wandering gangs of halfling thieves
http://www.wkowtv.com/global/story.asp?s=11876814



MADISON, Wis. - A man serving life in prison for first-degree intentional homicide has lost his legal battle to play Dungeons and Dragons behind bars.

Kevin T. Singer filed a lawsuit against officials at Wisconsin's Waupun prison after a policy was initiated in 2004 to eradicate all Dungeons and Dragons game materials among concerns that playing it promotes gang-related activity.

The 33-year-old Singer is a devoted player of the fantasy role-playing game that involves recruiting others to play as a group. He argued that his First Amendment rights were being violated and demanded that Dungeons and Dragons material confiscated from his cell be returned.

But the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Monday that the prison's policy was reasonable.

Only in Wisconsin

Bosco
01-26-2010, 11:07 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

Bothered? Hells no, I'm hardcore yo. Iz been playing D&D for 20 years and will pop a cap in anyones azz that stands between me and me D&D. That's how DnD rolls, yo.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:08 AM
1) You lose a lot of constitutional "rights" while in prison. It's prison, not vacation. If you want to debate this, be prepared to defend inmates' rights to possess firearms (2nd amendment) while incarcerated.
2) Yes, the guy that ordered D&D banned is obviously a moron.
3) Want to play D&D (or possess firearms)? Stay out of prison. Problem solved.

I have no problem with constitutional rights being limited in prision. However this particular limitation is stupid. If they said "we don't allow dice games because the dice can be used to gamble" or "we don't allow board games because <beats me insert reason>" I'd understand. But they think this particular game promotes gang activity? That's just foolish. I'd suggest the weight room does a much better job of promoting gang activity.

Gol
01-26-2010, 11:10 AM
I have no problem with constitutional rights being limited in prision. However this particular limitation is stupid. If they said "we don't allow dice games because the dice can be used to gamble" or "we don't allow board games because <beats me insert reason>" I'd understand. But they think this particular game promotes gang activity? That's just foolish. I'd suggest the weight room does a much better job of promoting gang activity.
Well like I said, this rule is stupid and unproductive to the stated objective.

However, the correctional facility is well within their bounds to do whatever they justifiably think is appropriate, be it right or wrong.

Rasczak
01-26-2010, 11:14 AM
On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Actually some of us have been on both sides of the fence and all I can say is my stay was a most comfortable and relaxing vacation. Depends where you go though and why you are sent ;)

Shamurai
01-26-2010, 11:14 AM
Maybe, since they're in WI, that can make dice outta cheese and make their Char Sheets as Tatttoos, and keep on gaming!!!

I think DnD is a great reahabilitation tool, heck you can't be out committing crime if your Raid Timer is just about up, and the Guild needs you!

Gol
01-26-2010, 11:16 AM
On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.
Not to nitpick, but your example contains 2 bad choices prior to getting caught. 1, getting drunk when you know you have to drive home, and 2, driving home after getting drunk. Even if you don't get caught, you still deserve to have your driver's license revoked for life.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 11:17 AM
some of you guys make me laugh. I am a corrections officer. Do i think DND promotes gang activity? About as much as a few guys playing old maid with a deck of cards. Rediculous policy put in place by a higher up who doesnt like nor understand DND.

FWIW Inmates are humans and should have some rights too. Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Have some +, Harold. As a C/O, your views should be the most applicable to this thread - and the other one.

Like a lot of game issues, lot of folks like to hype off without a clue as to who/what they're talking about.
As I already mentioned in the other thread on this, I've written to some guys in prison before, sending them gaming materials and sharing gaming stories. I know the guys I wrote to were staying OUT of trouble and working their way back out of the system. I have no clue about the general populations in those places, but the gamers in there by my experience are not the ones trying to cause problems.

Ashurr
01-26-2010, 11:17 AM
People in american prisons already get 3 meals a day, cable television, a better library than most small towns ( paid for by us tax-payers...) and don't forget the readily available sex (whether they want it or not) I say they get no D&D, there has to be something us poor non-criminals have that they don't...so basically,cry me a river Mr "Killer DM". lol

*dictated by my wife*

Bosco
01-26-2010, 11:27 AM
People in american prisons already get 3 meals a day, cable television, a better library than most small towns ( paid for by us tax-payers...) and don't forget get the readily available sex (whether they want it or not) I say they get no D&D, there has to be something us poor non-criminals have that they don't...so basically, **** Mr "Killer DM". lol

*dictated by my wife*

Well we probably should give them that much, since we house the largest prison population in the world. Three strikes your out is a ******** rule. Our country is right exactly were it was back during the great depression, which indecently coincided with prohibition. Exact same percentages of prison population to general population. More money is spent every year now on law enforcement and prisons then the war. The war on drugs is more expensive then the war on terror. Those fools don't know what they are doing to our country.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 11:27 AM
I have no problem with constitutional rights being limited in prision. However this particular limitation is stupid. If they said "we don't allow dice games because the dice can be used to gamble" or "we don't allow board games because <beats me insert reason>" I'd understand. But they think this particular game promotes gang activity? That's just foolish. I'd suggest the weight room does a much better job of promoting gang activity.

From the stories I got, the Weight Room was for 'homosexual activity'. The Boxing Room was where you only went if you were "In".

:rolleyes:


Looked at the warden's history a little. He's a jock. Associated with youth sports and the local hockey association. We all know how jocks and gamers get along. :(



....However, the correctional facility is well within their bounds to do whatever they justifiably think is appropriate, be it right or wrong.

Yup. That is pretty much the end-all, be-all. Their house, their rules. :( Hopefully the stupidity doesn't spread.

arminius
01-26-2010, 11:33 AM
And here they spent all this time and effort making making a shank out of a melted toothbrush handle and a piece of scrap metal.

Now they have to melt down their shanks again to make 20 siders. Oh well, priorities are priorities.

Making a DM screen out of toilet paper will be tough. Maybe add liquid protein and dry it out to make it stiffer? Now, let's see, where could prisoners get an ample supply of liquid protein?

_

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:34 AM
From the stories I got, the Weight Room was for 'homosexual activity'. The Boxing Room was where you only went if you were "In".

Ah, my bad, I should have guessed all those hot sweaty bodies pumping iron weren't gang related, thanks for the clarification.




Looked at the warden's history a little. He's a jock. Associated with youth sports and the local hockey association. We all know how jocks and gamers get along. :(

Now I understand, the warden was upset that the inmates were playing games too complex for him to figure out.

Uskathoth
01-26-2010, 11:35 AM
I think that if it were any place other than a prison I would be more concerned. But if a warden says that people playing Old Maid is contributing to gang activity in his prison, I'd tend to believe him since I have no experience to the contrary. Prison can be it's own little world where stranger things than DnD-related gang activity happens and I wouldn't second guess the people running it without evidence that they were doing a bad job.

So, no, I don't think DnD in general promotes gang activity. However I believe that it is possible for it (or just about anything) to promote gang activity in the right set of circumstances.

Josh
01-26-2010, 11:35 AM
I have no problem with constitutional rights being limited in prision. However this particular limitation is stupid. If they said "we don't allow dice games because the dice can be used to gamble" or "we don't allow board games because <beats me insert reason>" I'd understand. But they think this particular game promotes gang activity? That's just foolish. I'd suggest the weight room does a much better job of promoting gang activity.

Don't you think "gang activity" could involve rolling dice? Perhaps they are referring to gambling or something. Gang activity doesn't necessarily mean just banging or turning out ho's you know. Think about it. Group of criminals together, dice, nothing but time to burn. Sounds like a catalyst for malfeasance to me.

And as others have said...you're in prison. You chose to turn your back on society's rules. Don't expect society's rules to protect you anymore.

Quanefel
01-26-2010, 11:35 AM
imo all those jails should be like arizona tent city... buncha tents out in the sun, no games, no cards, no tv, just slave labor.

or we could just send em all to some colonial island and leave em there to rot... then come back a few years later and laugh at the new country XD


Don't forget the fashionable pink underwear they have to wear. :D

Josh
01-26-2010, 11:36 AM
People in american prisons already get 3 meals a day, cable television, a better library than most small towns ( paid for by us tax-payers...) and don't forget the readily available sex (whether they want it or not) I say they get no D&D, there has to be something us poor non-criminals have that they don't...so basically,cry me a river Mr "Killer DM". lol

*dictated by my wife*

He said sex (whether you want it or not). Ha ha xD

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:36 AM
Don't you think "gang activity" could involve rolling dice? .

Nope. Based on the information supplied 1) They didn't ban all dice games. 2) They didn't say you could play D&D only without dice (it can be done, in a variety of ways)

Ashurr
01-26-2010, 11:38 AM
Well we probably should give them that much, since we house the largest prison population in the world. Three strikes your out is a ******** rule. Our country is right exactly were it was back during the great depression, which indecently coincided with prohibition. Exact same percentages of prison population to general population. More money is spent every year now on law enforcement and prisons then the war. The war on drugs is more expensive then the war on terror. Those fools don't know what they are doing to our country.

EXACTLY! Your reply prompted a bit of research on my part. The total population of my town is slightly over 25,000, but through some odd quantum flux or something the combined population of both city and county jails equal over 28,000...either we need to ship some people home to serve their sentences, or Doppelgangers have infiltrated the "justice" system far deeper than we thought.....

Ota
01-26-2010, 11:40 AM
And as others have said...you're in prison. You chose to turn your back on society's rules. Don't expect society's rules to protect you anymore.

the assumption that everyone in prison deserves to be and therefore there are no longer any rights for them is wonderful

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

kingfisher
01-26-2010, 11:43 AM
i think the warden is just pushing for more of the inmates to give up the dice and join his LARP group. simple geek power play.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:47 AM
i think the warden is just pushing for more of the inmates to give up the dice and join his LARP group. simple geek power play.

lol. I think you nailed it!

Darn, I've given out too much rep today

Samiusbot
01-26-2010, 11:47 AM
Well we probably should give them that much, since we house the largest prison population in the world. Three strikes your out is a ******** rule. Our country is right exactly were it was back during the great depression, which indecently coincided with prohibition. Exact same percentages of prison population to general population. More money is spent every year now on law enforcement and prisons then the war. The war on drugs is more expensive then the war on terror. Those fools don't know what they are doing to our country.

Oh they know. and they are playing to their best interests, they are no slouches.

Josh
01-26-2010, 11:49 AM
Nope. Based on the information supplied 1) They didn't ban all dice games. 2) They didn't say you could play D&D only without dice (it can be done, in a variety of ways)

The article didn't say anything about other dice games so we don't know if all of them are banned or not. But if they were going to do that I guess dominos and cards would have to be banned too.

How do you play DnD without dice? Where does the random element come from?

Sirea
01-26-2010, 11:51 AM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw

I'm skurred.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 11:52 AM
The article didn't say anything about other dice games so we don't know if all of them are banned or not. But if they were going to do that I guess dominos and cards would have to be banned too.

How do you play DnD without dice? Where does the random element come from?

You can play DnD in full RP mode, use other ways to generate random results when you need them including coin flips, number guessing games, random number lists that are pregenerated on paper using prison computers or mailed in as part of a letter from home, etc.

Some more info from another article makes it very clear this was not related to the dice: http://wcco.com/wireapnewswi/Wisconsin.inmate.loses.2.1447712.html



Prison officials enacted the ban in 2004 after an inmate sent an anonymous letter expressing concern about Singer and three other inmates forming a "gang" focused around playing the game.

Singer was told by prison officials that he could not keep the materials because Dungeons & Dragons "promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling," according to the ruling. The prison later developed a more comprehensive policy against all types of fantasy games, the court said.

"possibly gambling" was on the list, but take a look at the rest of that and you can see pretty clearly what was going on. This small town warden is reacting the same way to the game as the people who think D&D is about evil devil worship.

Additional information from that article also indicates that the court didn't necessarily agree that the game posed any of the stated threats but instead that it was just an allowable punishment:


"After all, punishment is a fundamental aspect of imprisonment, and prisons may choose to punish inmates by preventing them from participating in some of their favorite recreations," the court said.

DnD3
01-26-2010, 11:53 AM
Person one: Hey look at those dorks playing DnD, I bet they've never even kissed a girl!
Person Two: SHH! One of them is a convicted rapist, and the one with the tattoes killed a man with his bare hands(his DM after he rolled a one on a disintegrate check?) and just came from prison after serving 25 years.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 11:57 AM
How do you play DnD without dice? Where does the random element come from?

A bit of a derail, but with chits. (Early box sets had cardboard numbers on little squares that you put into a bag and then draw from for randomizations.)

Fenrisulven6
01-26-2010, 11:59 AM
Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

LOL. I have to agree, if I was in prison, playing DDO would defineately keep me out of trouble. Of course, I'd prob start a riot to get a better ISP. :D

Agree with you that its likely ignorance on the part of some bureaucrat who makes decisions by what he's seen on the tele.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 12:09 PM
You can play DnD in full RP mode, use other ways to generate random results when you need them including coin flips, number guessing games, random number lists that are pregenerated on paper using prison computers or mailed in as part of a letter from home, etc.

Some more info from another article makes it very clear this was not related to the dice: http://wcco.com/wireapnewswi/Wisconsin.inmate.loses.2.1447712.html
[INDENT]

Prison officials enacted the ban in 2004 after an inmate sent an anonymous letter expressing concern about Singer and three other inmates forming a "gang" focused around playing the game.

'anonymous inmate'... yeah.


The guy killed his sister's boyfriend. :confused: I'd bet a paycheck that there was a good reason for it. Obviously wasn't the best way to handle whatever the issue was, but certainly makes ya wonder.

Gol
01-26-2010, 12:23 PM
the assumption that everyone in prison deserves to be and therefore there are no longer any rights for them is wonderfulWhile I agree wholeheartedly with the problem you bring up, it's rather irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Josh
01-26-2010, 12:42 PM
You can play DnD in full RP mode, use other ways to generate random results when you need them including coin flips, number guessing games, random number lists that are pregenerated on paper using prison computers or mailed in as part of a letter from home, etc.

Of those choices only a coin toss is truly random, and even that is unsuitable for use. I guess if you have enough time it could be adapted to use, but my god how awkward would that be. As for "full RP mode", they don't need books to do that.



Singer was told by prison officials that he could not keep the materials because Dungeons & Dragons "promotes fantasy role playing, competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling," according to the ruling. The prison later developed a more comprehensive policy against all types of fantasy games, the court said.

"possibly gambling" was on the list, but take a look at the rest of that and you can see pretty clearly what was going on. This small town warden is reacting the same way to the game as the people who think D&D is about evil devil worship.
I think you're reaching here. I bet that the prison also censors what movies are allowed to be watched and books to be read for the exact same reasons.



Additional information from that article also indicates that the court didn't necessarily agree that the game posed any of the stated threats but instead that it was just an allowable punishment:

"After all, punishment is a fundamental aspect of imprisonment, and prisons may choose to punish inmates by preventing them from participating in some of their favorite recreations," the court said.


I think this statement is too brief to really get any kind of insight as to whether the court agreed to this or not. The line directly above this is:

"The appeals court said the prison's policy was reasonable and did not violate Singer's rights." If the court felt the punishment was reasonable they are "agreeing with it".

Besides, this dude killed his sisters boyfriend with a sledgehammer. He doesn't deserve to play such a fine game as DnD.

Josh
01-26-2010, 12:43 PM
A bit of a derail, but with chits. (Early box sets had cardboard numbers on little squares that you put into a bag and then draw from for randomizations.)

Hmm, I don't remember that. It must have been before the basic boxed set came out?

Josh
01-26-2010, 12:48 PM
the assumption that everyone in prison deserves to be and therefore there are no longer any rights for them is wonderful

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Yes there are innocent people in prison. Yes, some of them are innocent.

However, the overwhelming majority of people in prison are there because they should be there. What's your point?

Also, I don't see where anyone said prisoners have no rights. They still have basic human rights. What they do not have is FREEDOM. Don't confuse a privilege with a right. People in prison have more freedom and privileges than I had when I was in basic.

Ayinger
01-26-2010, 12:52 PM
It's all fun and games until someone takes your 20 sider... I heard this news story on my way into work today and almost swerved off the road with laughter. Blows my mind what makes the news these days.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 12:57 PM
Of those choices only a coin toss is truly random, and even that is unsuitable for use. I guess if you have enough time it could be adapted to use, but my god how awkward would that be. As for "full RP mode", they don't need books to do that.

No they don't. But they also confiscated his gameplay notes and banned all fantasy roleplaying games.


I think you're reaching here. I bet that the prison also censors what movies are allowed to be watched and books to be read for the exact same reasons.

And once more... Do you think there is ANYTHING about D&D that promotes violence and competition? If anything it promotes planning, considering alternatives, cooperation and teamwork, things you would think you would want to encourage.




I think this statement is too brief to really get any kind of insight as to whether the court agreed to this or not. The line directly above this is:

"The appeals court said the prison's policy was reasonable and did not violate Singer's rights." If the court felt the punishment was reasonable they are "agreeing with it".

No, they just agreed it was constitutional, something different than agreeing it was reasonable.


I
Besides, this dude killed his sisters boyfriend with a sledgehammer. He doesn't deserve to play such a fine game as DnD.

He wasn't the only one banned. He's just the one making the case because he is there for life. We also know nothing about his particular crime. Would you feel differently at all if the murder was committed after his sister had been raped and beated half to death? Not that it really matters, the guy who was conviced of a non violent white collar crime is also impacted. You can't design system wide rules based on one offender.

donutfromouterspace
01-26-2010, 12:59 PM
To the people in this thread who think:

-rape is a larf riot as long as it happens to people in prison

-actually feeding people that one has denied ability to feed themselves is some sort of noblesse oblige that they don't really deserve

-The self-promotion of a corrupt, incompetent and reckless idiot is all sorts of testosterone-fueled cool (aka tent city jail, pink underwear)*

I have two questions: 1) Do you think there any limits to what can be done to incarcerated felons, and if so, what are they? 2) Do you think treating prisoners worse will increase or decrease recidivism, or do you even care?


*disclosure: I live in Phoenix, AZ

evilnatas
01-26-2010, 01:04 PM
1) You lose a lot of constitutional "rights" while in prison. It's prison, not vacation. If you want to debate this, be prepared to defend inmates' rights to possess firearms (2nd amendment) while incarcerated.
2) Yes, the guy that ordered D&D banned is obviously a moron.
3) Want to play D&D (or possess firearms)? Stay out of prison. Problem solved.

thanks for clearing that up :D

I bet martha steward dnd'd it up 24/7 while she was in the can, i say let the poor bastard play.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 01:05 PM
"The appeals court said the prison's policy was reasonable and did not violate Singer's rights." If the court felt the punishment was reasonable they are "agreeing with it".

Opinion: The courts just aren't willing to stand against another house of the judiciary system without a real clear-cut reason like abuse, or some such thing.



Besides, this dude killed his sisters boyfriend with a sledgehammer. He doesn't deserve to play such a fine game as DnD.

BS on that. Maybe the bf was beating his sister, and the sister (as is common) wasn't willing to turn the bf in or get away from him. Yeah, it's a stretch, but we don't know the backstory - and that whole "sister's boyfriend" part just has some feel to it I can't explain. The guy didn't go sledgehammering folks at random...

Sir_Chonas
01-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Singer to DM: I'll give you my cigarettes for +1 on my loot rolls
DM to Singer: Sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of all the vorpal swords you're gonna get.

Ashurr
01-26-2010, 01:16 PM
To the people in this thread who think:

-rape is a larf riot as long as it happens to people in prison

-actually feeding people that one has denied ability to feed themselves is some sort of noblesse oblige that they don't really deserve

-The self-promotion of a corrupt, incompetent and reckless idiot is all sorts of testosterone-fueled cool (aka tent city jail, pink underwear)*

I have two questions: 1) Do you think there any limits to what can be done to incarcerated felons, and if so, what are they? 2) Do you think treating prisoners worse will increase or decrease recidivism, or do you even care?


*disclosure: I live in Phoenix, AZ


1. Depending on the crime for which they were incarcerated, yes. As the father of two teenage girls I for one have NO sympathy for rapists. If one is convicted for rape, I believe that they should have their own crime visited upon repeatedly and with much malice.

2. I fall into the " I don't care" category. If you take it upon yourself to relieve another of their rights you should have yours taken from you as well.

I am one of those who have seen "Both sides of the fence" and let me tell you, in jail EVERYONE is innocent..to hear them tell it.

Ashurr
01-26-2010, 01:21 PM
thanks for clearing that up :D

I bet martha steward dnd'd it up 24/7 while she was in the can, i say let the poor bastard play.

Dunno about D&D, but she did get sanctioned for making a cheese grater out of a soup can. lol Nolw that's hardcore...to hel with a shank, the queen of marketing is gonna grate your face off!

adamkatt
01-26-2010, 01:24 PM
Seems like a way to keep the prisoners occupied.. And less violent? But what do i know.. Let em work out play dnd whatever as long as they do their time without killing each other...

Shamurai
01-26-2010, 01:25 PM
Somehow a "Roaring Vorpal" sounds like a Prison term anyway... But the implications... stagger me.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2010, 01:28 PM
Singer to DM: I'll give you my cigarettes for +1 on my loot rolls
DM to Singer: Sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of all the vorpal swords you're gonna get.

Hey that works in DDO, why not :p

Almerel
01-26-2010, 01:37 PM
imo all those jails should be like arizona tent city... buncha tents out in the sun, no games, no cards, no tv, just slave labor.

or we could just send em all to some colonial island and leave em there to rot... then come back a few years later and laugh at the new country XD

I was in the brig for some bad choices when in the Navy and I agree with this. If our punishments were a bit stronger I probably would've thought before I acted. We are way to nice to our criminals in this country.

I had better food in the brig then I did when I was at my normal duty station. I wont even go into the horrors of when I was in Albania eating MRE's that came with warnings because they were so old.

Draccus
01-26-2010, 01:41 PM
****. There goes my one steady PnP group.

Bunker
01-26-2010, 01:43 PM
Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

Sir_Chonas
01-26-2010, 01:44 PM
Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

Don't make a rhyme, if you haven't strangled a mime.

Turial
01-26-2010, 01:45 PM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

Yeah, its the same thing with how snowball fights in most cities are considered gang fights.

techknowannie
01-26-2010, 01:45 PM
what he cant remember the rules set? heck even if he got some wrong how many are going to know in prison :p and how long has he been in prison most inmates learn to make dice out of toilet paper back in county :D
although the brief time I worked as a correctional office I never confiscated any 20 sided dice ;)

I bet the warden must have some experience with D&D and knows how heated it can get debating the rules set, but gang activity? what were they dividing into 3 and 3.5 camps LOL

Darthvapor
01-26-2010, 01:51 PM
Don't make a rhyme, if you haven't strangled a mime.


omg spit beer all over my laptop +1 for that

Timjc86
01-26-2010, 01:54 PM
****. There Goes My One Steady Pnp Group.

Lol!!!

Kalari
01-26-2010, 01:57 PM
Im sharing the same sentiment as others. As much as I love Dungeons and Dragons these guys are in jail.

Its bad enough tax dollars are putting a roof over there head some of them who should be in the same way as their victims (sorry supporter of the death penalty here).

Bad enough they get more square meals then many poor families in this country.

A chance at education which annoys me when there are hard working families who have to break themselves to send their kids to a decent college.

Oh and might I add they are criminals? Now now before the bleeding hearts some people deserve reform chance come out if they can be redeemed fine let them play dnd when they are on the outside.

What ever happened to punishment being that?

transtemporal
01-26-2010, 01:59 PM
So no one else is bothered that a policy was specifically instated associating DnD with "gang-related activity?"

Come on ese, I organise hits and drug deals in game all the time.

"OK, first we'll take out Duke Brocoli then we'll steal his fabled Potion of Longevity!" :D

Sir_Chonas
01-26-2010, 01:59 PM
omg spit beer all over my laptop +1 for that

Glad someone enjoyed it. . . apparently others didn't find it so funny :\

donutfromouterspace
01-26-2010, 02:08 PM
1. Depending on the crime for which they were incarcerated, yes. As the father of two teenage girls I for one have NO sympathy for rapists. If one is convicted for rape, I believe that they should have their own crime visited upon repeatedly and with much malice.

2. I fall into the " I don't care" category. If you take it upon yourself to relieve another of their rights you should have yours taken from you as well.

I am one of those who have seen "Both sides of the fence" and let me tell you, in jail EVERYONE is innocent..to hear them tell it.So, what you're in effect saying is that you are pro-rape as long as it doesn't impact you personally, and would like to see more of it in society (since the vast majority of prison rapists weren't such when they went in, and the vast majority of today's prisoners do not have life-without-parole sentences), again, as long as it effects someone else.

I also see that you think the constitutional underpinnings of our justice system are dysfunctional and the barbarism common in third world hellholes works much better. Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

I guess I should give you credit for actually admitting you're the moral equivalent of a dumpster fire, instead of just sticking to 'law-n-order' bumper sticker talking points.

evilnatas
01-26-2010, 02:15 PM
Glad someone enjoyed it. . . apparently others didn't find it so funny :\

tred lightly, as not to provoke of the DDO secret mime syndicate :eek:

Ashurr
01-26-2010, 02:37 PM
1. So, what you're in effect saying is that you are pro-rape as long as it doesn't impact you personally, and would like to see more of it in society (since the vast majority of prison rapists weren't such when they went in, and the vast majority of today's prisoners do not have life-without-parole sentences), again, as long as it effects someone else.

2. I also see that you think the constitutional underpinnings of our justice system are dysfunctional and the barbarism common in third world hellholes works much better. Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

3. I guess I should give you credit for actually admitting you're the moral equivalent of a dumpster fire, instead of just sticking to 'law-n-order' bumper sticker talking points.

*itemized for clarity*

1. What I'm saying is that punishment does not fit the crime in almost any instance in america. Morality plays no part, either for or against. Instance - I, in a fit of rage, kill a man who is raping my child. My penalty - 25 years to life for Manslaughter ( if I'm lucky). Instance - The man completes the rape of my child. His penalty - 10-15 years plus lifetime of having to file as a sex offender.

You rape someone, you get raped.( and yes, before you leap to any other amazing fits of bleeding heart logic, YES I have been raped...not in prison, yeah, it happens to men too)

Everyone is affected.


2. Our Justice system is dysfunctional - mostly due to people such as yourselves crying about moral turpitude, and worrying about whether or not "Bubba" the serial rapist ( who would most likely look at you like you're a Happy Meal) is getting a fair shake.


3. Moral..yeah. That's the damned problem to begin with. Wanting to treat people morally instead of JUSTLY. talk to me about "justice" when you find out what it means.

Cetus
01-26-2010, 02:44 PM
DnD is a fantasy game! what!?

I think we need to file a bug report

Rasczak
01-26-2010, 02:52 PM
DnD is a fantasy game! what!?

I think we need to file a bug report


shhhh it's a white lie we tell our parents so they don't send the ambulance for us when we talk about those glorious battle with the red dragon.....*hands over happy pills*

ApesAmongUs
01-26-2010, 03:17 PM
which part of the 1st amendment allows you to have printed materials and dice in a jail cell, again?
Depends on what other printed materials prisoners are allowed to keep in their cells. If there is a relatively open policy on that (which I doubt there is), and certain materials were singled out because of content, it might be considered an attack on the ideas expressed in the material. Obviously, there are a lot of "if"s in there, but the idea isn't outlandish.

techknowannie
01-26-2010, 04:17 PM
Im sharing the same sentiment as others. As much as I love Dungeons and Dragons these guys are in jail.

Its bad enough tax dollars are putting a roof over there head some of them who should be in the same way as their victims (sorry supporter of the death penalty here).

Bad enough they get more square meals then many poor families in this country.

A chance at education which annoys me when there are hard working families who have to break themselves to send their kids to a decent college.

Oh and might I add they are criminals? Now now before the bleeding hearts some people deserve reform chance come out if they can be redeemed fine let them play dnd when they are on the outside.

What ever happened to punishment being that?

I guess it depends on what the penal system is supposed to be? is it just punishment or reformation

punishment alone my reform some criminals, but most need to learn some life skills and maybe a trade, so they can become a productive member of society.
sure recidivism rates are still high, (some people just never learn) but they are lower than they were before educational programs were in acted in the prison system

I have seen a few success stories as a result of the educational programs in prison

should they be allowed to play D&D? ah no, that is just silly, and I don't see how it has anything to do with the 1st amendment unless he is claiming it is his religion which is just to funny :eek:

and as much as I believe in reform I am also a supporter of the death penalty and I also think rapists and child molesters should get the death penalty

unionyes
01-26-2010, 04:48 PM
Im sharing the same sentiment as others. As much as I love Dungeons and Dragons these guys are in jail.

Its bad enough tax dollars are putting a roof over there head some of them who should be in the same way as their victims (sorry supporter of the death penalty here).

Bad enough they get more square meals then many poor families in this country.

A chance at education which annoys me when there are hard working families who have to break themselves to send their kids to a decent college.

Oh and might I add they are criminals? Now now before the bleeding hearts some people deserve reform chance come out if they can be redeemed fine let them play dnd when they are on the outside.

What ever happened to punishment being that?

Fact 1. The USA incarcerates a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country in the world. Higher than China. Higher than Cuba. Higher than the old Soviet Union. If you live in the USA, you have a better chance of being sent to jail than you do if you live anywhere else in the world. And if you want the numbers to back this up, type it into google. No really, check it out.

Fact 2. Most of the prisoners in the US system are there for nonviolent crimes, and most of those nonviolent crimes are for posessing drugs. Not trafficking, but having a small amount for personal use. Also, the majority of the time the drug is pot. Again, type it into google.

Fact 3. Policies apply to everyone. Not just to this particular person, but to everyone in that prison. And this court ruling sets a precedent, which will make it easier if not guarantee that a similar challenge from another inmate will fail.

Not trying to bash the US prison system (although I am not in favor of its methods, thats a different discussion I think), but I just had to point this out.

Here is the guy who shouldn't be playing DnD, according to the judge and some on these forums......

So, some dude is bebopping down the street, on his way home after picking up a dime bag of really good grass. He is looking forward to relaxing this weekend, as his job as an accountant/computer programmer/whatever has been really busy lately. He looks both ways, crosses the street against the light, and waiting on the other side of the street is the friendly neighborhood police officer. Said police officer books him for jaywalking, and in the process discovers an odor on our friend, since he and his buddy who grows a few plants had a toke before he left. A search ensues, and our buddy gets arrested for possession of a controlled substance. In court, the judge finds that he had a similar conviction when he was 19 and in college. Sure it was 25 years ago, but we are tough on crime here, and he gets a couple years in the slammer since he is a 'two time loser'. So he loses his job, his wife leaves him, and off he goes to prison.

Is this the guy who should be breaking rocks in the hot sun, as the song goes? Sleeping in a tent in the Arizona sun, doing slave labor?

Or more to the point of this thread, should this guy have his dice bag taken away from him?

I don't think so.

maddmatt70
01-26-2010, 04:54 PM
Fact 1. The USA incarcerates a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country in the world. Higher than China. Higher than Cuba. Higher than the old Soviet Union. If you live in the USA, you have a better chance of being sent to jail than you do if you live anywhere else in the world. And if you want the numbers to back this up, type it into google. No really, check it out.

Fact 2. Most of the prisoners in the US system are there for nonviolent crimes, and most of those nonviolent crimes are for posessing drugs. Not trafficking, but having a small amount for personal use. Also, the majority of the time the drug is pot. Again, type it into google.

Fact 3. Policies apply to everyone. Not just to this particular person, but to everyone in that prison. And this court ruling sets a precedent, which will make it easier if not guarantee that a similar challenge from another inmate will fail.

Not trying to bash the US prison system (although I am not in favor of its methods, thats a different discussion I think), but I just had to point this out.

Here is the guy who shouldn't be playing DnD, according to the judge and some on these forums......

So, some dude is bebopping down the street, on his way home after picking up a dime bag of really good grass. He is looking forward to relaxing this weekend, as his job as an accountant/computer programmer/whatever has been really busy lately. He looks both ways, crosses the street against the light, and waiting on the other side of the street is the friendly neighborhood police officer. Said police officer books him for jaywalking, and in the process discovers an odor on our friend, since he and his buddy who grows a few plants had a toke before he left. A search ensues, and our buddy gets arrested for possession of a controlled substance. In court, the judge finds that he had a similar conviction when he was 19 and in college. Sure it was 25 years ago, but we are tough on crime here, and he gets a couple years in the slammer since he is a 'two time loser'. So he loses his job, his wife leaves him, and off he goes to prison.

Is this the guy who should be breaking rocks in the hot sun, as the song goes? Sleeping in a tent in the Arizona sun, doing slave labor?

Or more to the point of this thread, should this guy have his dice bag taken away from him?

I don't think so.

This will get appealed to the Supreme Court and I think it is worthy enough for them to grant cert. My guess is the decision will get overturned despite the current rightish court leaning.

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 04:56 PM
some of you guys make me laugh. I am a corrections officer. Do i think DND promotes gang activity? About as much as a few guys playing old maid with a deck of cards. Rediculous policy put in place by a higher up who doesnt like nor understand DND.

FWIW Inmates are humans and should have some rights too. Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

interesting, rapists should be executed on the spot, but murderers can play games and drunk driving is no big deal XD The things you learn from a corrections officer...

Sir_Chonas
01-26-2010, 05:06 PM
Fact 1. The USA incarcerates a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country in the world. Higher than China. Higher than Cuba. Higher than the old Soviet Union. If you live in the USA, you have a better chance of being sent to jail than you do if you live anywhere else in the world. And if you want the numbers to back this up, type it into google. No really, check it out.


In China they cane criminals. In Saudia Arabia and other countries they chop of your hand for thievery.
-> Do you suppose it's because the police in the US are just arresting people for no good reason that they arrest more, or maybe other countries take punishment a bit more extremely than our TV time, hour of recreation in the yard a day, possible college degree, ability to make money in jail?

Modinator0
01-26-2010, 05:57 PM
To the people in this thread who think:

-rape is a larf riot as long as it happens to people in prison

-actually feeding people that one has denied ability to feed themselves is some sort of noblesse oblige that they don't really deserve

-The self-promotion of a corrupt, incompetent and reckless idiot is all sorts of testosterone-fueled cool (aka tent city jail, pink underwear)*

I have two questions: 1) Do you think there any limits to what can be done to incarcerated felons, and if so, what are they? 2) Do you think treating prisoners worse will increase or decrease recidivism, or do you even care?


*disclosure: I live in Phoenix, AZ

I don't like arpaio, but the tent city jail is good. In its current form it is a voluntary camp anyway, prisoners have the choice of being in tent city (get to be outdoors, walk around, but you have to stay clean and do labor) or being in a normal medium security prison.
anyway,
first question: I don't think anything should be done TO them, they just shouldn't have any freedoms. TV, games, etc... none of that should be in prisons. That brings me to the second question: The idea is to make jail A BAD PLACE. If you make it a 5 star resort, people commit crimes just to get back there! There have been numerous accounts of homeless people goin and committing lesser felonies just so they can be put in jail and get free shelter, tv, food, etc. To reiterate: jail should be bad, mmkay?

unionyes
01-26-2010, 06:01 PM
interesting, rapists should be executed on the spot, but murderers can play games and drunk driving is no big deal XD The things you learn from a corrections officer...

Ah yes, nothing like executing people on the spot. Because the police always arrest the right person. Oh yes that reminds me, another interesting thing to google is 'death sentences overturned after the fact due to DNA evidence', or pretty much any combination of those words........

Some more facts :)

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on black defendants than on white defendants, when measured by comparing the percentage of convictions. This means that a white person convicted of murder is less likely to get the death penalty than a black person convicted of the same crime.

For jury trials of black defendants, the likelihood of getting the death sentence decreases in proportion to the number of black jurors. The same is true for white defendants in jury trials.

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on poor people. The less money you have, the more likely you are to get sentenced to death. Sure, some of this is a function of having to use a public defender instead of F. Lee Bailey, but even those who are poor but have someone provide them with funds to hire a lawyer are more likely to get sentenced to death.

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on uneducated people, measured by number of convictions where the death penalty was imposed. If you have a university degree you are almost certain to avoid the death penalty. If you have not attended high school, you are almost certain to get the death penalty for the same crime.

And all this is with a judge involved. Just imagine what the stats would be if the police got to do things Judge Dredd style.

Kalari
01-26-2010, 06:02 PM
I dont care what a person gets put in jail for if you get busted cant get out cant find a lawyer for your dime bag bust then sorry but Prison is supposed to be a punishment. Not a pleasure cruise, not a few months to a couple of years vacation. And sorry if Joe pot head gets thrown into the slammer with killers rapists and theives but as long as having pot is against the law he knows the risk hes taking.

I dont come from the stance as some hard ass conservative either. I come from a person who knows both sides. I have people behind bars in my family people I love who choose the wrong path and are paying for it, I dont think they should have the same luxuries as I do I didnt do the wrong things so I get to enjoy the finer things in life because of that.

And as someone who has been a victim hell yes if your in jail you deserve to suffer as far as im concern. Dont want to go to prison it seems fairly simple to me not to do something to get there. Crimes of passion may happen heck the need to smoke may happen but once your busted you have to deal with it. Prison in my opinion should be a reminder of what you should not have and what you can lose due to your own personal choices. And nothing anyone in this forums or even that know me could ever make me change my mind. I have been a bleeding heart on many causes but for criminals pfft never gonna happen.

muffinlad
01-26-2010, 06:03 PM
A) I have done prison outreach, volunteer work, for nearly 20 years.
B) If you think that most people there are having a good time, you are wrong.
C) If you think that life is easy there, you are wrong.
D) If you think that Rape is EVER an acceptable answer to a problem, you are wrong.

This is not bleeding heart, this is not soft, this is dedication to Justice. Justice is an important, if not the, important cause of American Life. We were founded in an attempt to create a just and civil society. You don't do that by raping or harming people, even when they have done those same things.

WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY ARE. We kill to defend our lives and liberty. We don't torture, we don't rape, and we don't act the part of Tyrants. We are the GOOD GUYS.

Should this guy be able to play D+D in prison? Up to the Warden. He says no, the court says no. I may disagree with it on a personal level, or try to introduce alternative forms of roleplaying in the system, but you follow the law.

No person is beyond redemption until they are dead, but that path can become eaiser or harder based on the environment. Killing, raping, torturing or other wise harming this man will not bring him closer to redemption, and such punishment are offensive to our people and our country.

muffinpatriot

Sir_Chonas
01-26-2010, 06:04 PM
This thread will self-destruct in . . . .

(hint: don't talk about racism or politics which is where the thread is headed)

Kalari
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
I guess it depends on what the penal system is supposed to be? is it just punishment or reformation

punishment alone my reform some criminals, but most need to learn some life skills and maybe a trade, so they can become a productive member of society.
sure recidivism rates are still high, (some people just never learn) but they are lower than they were before educational programs were in acted in the prison system

I have seen a few success stories as a result of the educational programs in prison

should they be allowed to play D&D? ah no, that is just silly, and I don't see how it has anything to do with the 1st amendment unless he is claiming it is his religion which is just to funny :eek:

and as much as I believe in reform I am also a supporter of the death penalty and I also think rapists and child molesters should get the death penalty

Im sorry I may sound like im repeating my above posts Reform or no Prison should be a place where a person learns what they gave up to be put there.

why should a criminal even one deemed to be able to be rehabilitated be allowed to enjoy luxuries when the law says he/she is being punished for a crime?

Is it just me or did punishment lose its way in the prison system? I just dont think its right to have criminals thinking Jail is just another home away from home. Its why many dont care if they do time. Its why back in my old neighboorhood its like a freaking badge of honor to have done time instead of it being a punishment.

They get free meals, tv and movie time, some get schooling better then us on the outside. And your telling me thats fair? I may as well teach my little boy to do enough petty crimes get some prison time in not only will he get some good meals and a way to weight train he may even get a HS diploma and college oh all he has to do is ignore the fact that hes in with rapist, killers and other vile people..

sorry I just cant share the sentiment that its fair for some prisoners to enjoy such luxuries and none I dont think any of them should get the right to enjoy things we on the outside do. Prison is a punishment and should remain that way.

Mockduck
01-26-2010, 06:12 PM
I think D&D seems like a great thing to have in prisons. Gets people reading, communicating, working together to problem solve and many other things.

This ruling ****ed me off. I can believe that a prison admin might have a problem with D&D (doesn't say in the article, but I would bet money that at least part of the ban is because D&D is "satan's game" in the mind of someone there.) I can't believe that the 7th Circuit would go along with it.

I want more gang members to play D&D, if for no other reason than my life would be complete if I turned on a hardcore rap video to see "ganstas" showing off their d20 "bling" and rapping about how awesome they are because they have a level 20 paladin.

unionyes
01-26-2010, 06:21 PM
I dont care what a person gets put in jail for if you get busted cant get out cant find a lawyer for your dime bag bust then sorry but Prison is supposed to be a punishment. Not a pleasure cruise, not a few months to a couple of years vacation. And sorry if Joe pot head gets thrown into the slammer with killers rapists and theives but as long as having pot is against the law he knows the risk hes taking.

I dont come from the stance as some hard ass conservative either. I come from a person who knows both sides. I have people behind bars in my family people I love who choose the wrong path and are paying for it, I dont think they should have the same luxuries as I do I didnt do the wrong things so I get to enjoy the finer things in life because of that.

And as someone who has been a victim hell yes if your in jail you deserve to suffer as far as im concern. Dont want to go to prison it seems fairly simple to me not to do something to get there. Crimes of passion may happen heck the need to smoke may happen but once your busted you have to deal with it. Prison in my opinion should be a reminder of what you should not have and what you can lose due to your own personal choices. And nothing anyone in this forums or even that know me could ever make me change my mind. I have been a bleeding heart on many causes but for criminals pfft never gonna happen.

Thats right. Execute those criminals, beat them, take away their D+D, and tv, and education, and AA meetings, and make them work like dogs.

And while we're at it, would you like us to also beat up that guy in high school who picked on you? Sheesh.

Kalari
01-26-2010, 06:24 PM
Thats right. Execute those criminals, beat them, take away their D+D, and tv, and education, and AA meetings, and make them work like dogs.

And while we're at it, would you like us to also beat up that guy in high school who picked on you? Sheesh.

nope id probably have done it myself

Never claimed to be an angel or nothing but I follow the law I keep myself away from jail because I dont want my rights taken away. I dont think a person who decides to do something against the law should be able to do the same we on the outside do even if its light recreation and thats my personal belief. Obviously people agree hence why their dnd is being taken away. So sorry Im not crying a river for them.

Picked on isnt what got me this way either being someone who was involved in a violent crime by a scumbag did so excuse me if im a little bitter towards people behind bars. But some of us cant see the bright side behind criminals and have good reason for it.

Almerel
01-26-2010, 06:32 PM
Ah yes, nothing like executing people on the spot. Because the police always arrest the right person. Oh yes that reminds me, another interesting thing to google is 'death sentences overturned after the fact due to DNA evidence', or pretty much any combination of those words........

Some more facts :)

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on black defendants than on white defendants, when measured by comparing the percentage of convictions. This means that a white person convicted of murder is less likely to get the death penalty than a black person convicted of the same crime.

For jury trials of black defendants, the likelihood of getting the death sentence decreases in proportion to the number of black jurors. The same is true for white defendants in jury trials.

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on poor people. The less money you have, the more likely you are to get sentenced to death. Sure, some of this is a function of having to use a public defender instead of F. Lee Bailey, but even those who are poor but have someone provide them with funds to hire a lawyer are more likely to get sentenced to death.

The death penalty is imposed much more frequently on uneducated people, measured by number of convictions where the death penalty was imposed. If you have a university degree you are almost certain to avoid the death penalty. If you have not attended high school, you are almost certain to get the death penalty for the same crime.

And all this is with a judge involved. Just imagine what the stats would be if the police got to do things Judge Dredd style.

It's possible that if your name wasn't unionyes than your liberal view points may hold more water. Unfortunately your name is what you chose it to be and now you will have to accept why people are not taking you seriously.

Kind of like the prisoner who did a crime shouldn't complain when he was thrown in jail. He did the crime and now he must do the time.

Mazeratti
01-26-2010, 06:34 PM
Thats right. Execute those criminals, beat them, take away their D+D, and tv, and education, and AA meetings, and make them work like dogs.

And while we're at it, would you like us to also beat up that guy in high school who picked on you? Sheesh.

Or send them to a newly discovered island/continent and start a new country :)

Im of two minds.

Firstly I think the ruling is stupid, I actually believe playing D&D encourages community and R&R. I mean if your facing a life sentance, youve lost everything already. Coping with the long haul till death is the hard part. Reducing interaction between ppl is more deadly I believe, and will brew much more trouble.

When ppl are cut off and withdrawn they begin to hear voices telling them weird stuff, its the community around us that sometimes stops us believing weird stuff. If we are surrounded by a community that are hearing the same weird voices perhaps, that may be an issue :D

On the other hand, I do believe in what Kal is saying. Losing your rights to choose what pleasure you can have is one of the prices you pay for not abiding by fairly instituted laws put in place by a reasonable government in a democratic system.

I just think in this case banning D&D is kinda stupid and irrelevant, and the whole issue of Gang Activity... oh pls :rolleyes:

Quanefel
01-26-2010, 06:37 PM
Thats right. Execute those criminals, beat them, take away their D+D, and tv, and education, and AA meetings, and make them work like dogs.

And while we're at it, would you like us to also beat up that guy in high school who picked on you? Sheesh.

Excute and beat those criminals....what? I think you are getting a tad bit emotional over criminals not getting to play D&D in prison. Maybe you should go visit some prisons and offer to give them all hugs and talk about their "feelings", come back and tell us how that works out.

unionyes
01-26-2010, 06:42 PM
It's possible that if your name wasn't unionyes than your liberal view points may hold more water. Unfortunately your name is what you chose it to be and now you will have to accept why people are not taking you seriously.

Kind of like the prisoner who did a crime shouldn't complain when he was thrown in jail. He did the crime and now he must do the time.

Lol I can't recall where I said I wasn't being taken seriously? And BTW, supporting a Union doesn't automatically make you a leftie. I am a leftie, but it is more of a lucky guess on your part.

If anything, I get frustrated by all the folks who, while seeming to be otherwise normal and intelligent, seem to enjoy being spoon fed their political views by Glen Beck, Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh.

BTW, I am from Canada. We have Liberals here, but they aren't quite what you would call a liberal in the US. Even our farthest right wing mainstream political party (the one that is currently in power) is somewhat farther to the left than your Democratic party. (For proof, I should point out that we have had them in power for about half the time since we got a fully public health care system, and they haven't removed it, although they have tinkered with it). We incarcerate a lot less people than they do in America, and they are even allowed to play D+D in jail! And guess what? Not saying there is a connection, but we have way lower crime statistics than America does. Oh wait, maybe I am saying there is a connection, not to D+D in jail but to a more rehabilitation over punishment model of incarceration.

Or, it might be that Canadians are just plain nicer than Americans? Who knows, I just know that I am a lot less likely to be raped, murdered, robbed, or otherwise victimized here in Canada, in spite of our 'liberal' prison and judicial system and rampant unionism :)

KillEveryone
01-26-2010, 06:44 PM
Didn't read the entire thread and this might be a repeat but this is what I also think.

Prison should be much more harsh than the place it is now to fit the crime they committed.

They have cable TV.

They have 2 to 3 squares a day...some places have cut out a meal and the prisoners family have to pay for the third if they want to help.

They get access to many books and reading material.

Min security prisons have access to more stuff.


If the prisoner itentionally killed someone then they shouldn't have access to anything since they will most likely die in prison as they should. They should just rot. No TV, books...just stick them in a dank dark hole and let them rot.

If the prisoner is in for something minor, I don't mind the rehab route...get them some kind of education so that they can contribute to society instead of being a drain. But then they should be studying instead of playing a game.

muffinlad
01-26-2010, 06:45 PM
It's possible that if your name wasn't unionyes than your liberal view points may hold more water. Unfortunately your name is what you chose it to be and now you will have to accept why people are not taking you seriously.

Kind of like the prisoner who did a crime shouldn't complain when he was thrown in jail. He did the crime and now he must do the time.

He is talking about the truth. The truth is not liberal, or conservative. Taking a swipe at his name is irrelevant, and damaging to your own point.

You may want a harsher set of circumstance for prisoners. Please present evidence, any evidence other than emotion, or what you feel, that shows this is effective in reducing crime.

You wont find it. 100+ years of research shows that treating prisoners humainly improves their chances of rehibilitation. The chance...is still small. But it is better than zero. That does not mean you let them continue to be criminals in prison (drugs, black market, etc.), but you train a person to be the person you want them to be and that is what takes them to the next level.

Arguing this on a web site is not going to solve anything, but if you truly want to make a difference, take some time volunteering for a prison AND a Crime Victim's Charity. You will see that the chain linking those two groups is very, very short, and very tight.

And thats my last thought on this.

muffinlad

Kalari
01-26-2010, 06:51 PM
Lol I can't recall where I said I wasn't being taken seriously? And BTW, supporting a Union doesn't automatically make you a leftie. I am a leftie, but it is more of a lucky guess on your part.

If anything, I get frustrated by all the folks who, while seeming to be otherwise normal and intelligent, seem to enjoy being spoon fed their political views by Glen Beck, Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh.

BTW, I am from Canada. We have Liberals here, but they aren't quite what you would call a liberal in the US. Even our farthest right wing mainstream political party (the one that is currently in power) is somewhat farther to the left than your Democratic party. (For proof, I should point out that we have had them in power for about half the time since we got a fully public health care system, and they haven't removed it, although they have tinkered with it). We incarcerate a lot less people than they do in America, and they are even allowed to play D+D in jail! And guess what? Not saying there is a connection, but we have way lower crime statistics than America does. Oh wait, maybe I am saying there is a connection, not to D+D in jail but to a more rehabilitation over punishment model of incarceration.

Or, it might be that Canadians are just plain nicer than Americans? Who knows, I just know that I am a lot less likely to be raped, murdered, robbed, or otherwise victimized here in Canada, in spite of our 'liberal' prison and judicial system and rampant unionism :)

I hope thats not addressing me id rather eat vomit then listen to rush limberger or any of them other right wing fanatics.

Excuse me but not all liberals are cut from the same cloth to. I believe in human rights for those who deserve it. Criminals dont in my opinion.

once again ive seen people say think about it from a human perspective and I am. I was a victim the guy who did what happened to me is behind bars and I in no way want to see him enjoying a game that I enjoy. Sorry if human emotion backs some of the people in this forums but its the way it is. Not right wing not left I speak from my heart and what happened to me that still affects my life. You want to feel sorry for someone in jail thats your right its my right to want to see scumbags suffer and no political belief will ever change that.

Bosco
01-26-2010, 06:53 PM
EXACTLY! Your reply prompted a bit of research on my part. The total population of my town is slightly over 25,000, but through some odd quantum flux or something the combined population of both city and county jails equal over 28,000...either we need to ship some people home to serve their sentences, or Doppelgangers have infiltrated the "justice" system far deeper than we thought.....

The rabbit hole goes deeper. Once again those exact same percentages, which lead to the great depression. Our presidents solution is to spend more. We were due. It is no longer sustainable to continue this path, and our presidents solution is the exact same solution as Roosevelt which most will argue continued the depression much longer. What lifted it.

Less prisoners. The reversal of prohibition brought our overhead costs down. Kind of funny but this is an exact representation of the great depression. Looks like history is going to repeat itself.

cdbd3rd
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
I think D&D seems like a great thing to have in prisons. Gets people reading, communicating, working together to problem solve and many other things.

This ruling ****ed me off. I can believe that a prison admin might have a problem with D&D (doesn't say in the article, but I would bet money that at least part of the ban is because D&D is "satan's game" in the mind of someone there.) I can't believe that the 7th Circuit would go along with it.

I want more gang members to play D&D, if for no other reason than my life would be complete if I turned on a hardcore rap video to see "ganstas" showing off their d20 "bling" and rapping about how awesome they are because they have a level 20 paladin.


Exactly. The same skills and ideologies we are proud of the game teaching youngsters are the exact same skills social gaming can teach those people trying to refocus their lives.
The losers & 'gangstas' that like being in there are NOT the ones that'll be gaming. It's the ones that are looking to redirect themselves. The 'gangstas' are playing spades, dominos and handball/basketball and still have their games, I'd bet.


As for another appeal getting up the ladder to possibly look at the issue - it took 5 years to get this far.... :(

Dark_Helmet
01-26-2010, 07:30 PM
some of you guys make me laugh. I am a corrections officer. Do i think DND promotes gang activity? About as much as a few guys playing old maid with a deck of cards. Rediculous policy put in place by a higher up who doesnt like nor understand DND.

FWIW Inmates are humans and should have some rights too. Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
http://www.zuguide.com/image/Peter-Graves-Airplane.1.jpg


PST - I made a shiv out of my DM Screen, so that is why it was taken away.

HumanJHawkins
01-26-2010, 07:58 PM
Well like I said, this rule is stupid and unproductive to the stated objective.

However, the correctional facility is well within their bounds to do whatever they justifiably think is appropriate, be it right or wrong.

Word.

It's a stupid decision, but it is the warden't decision to make. Within reason, and within the supervision of the court, the warden must have the leeway to grant or restrict privileges as he/she sees fit.

Wardens aren't going to be perfect. If you don't want to live under someone else's imperfect rules, don't go to jail.

As for the innocence project, we should have more support for that. But you can't run a prison under the assumption that everyone there is innocent. As a citizen, you are innocent until proven guilty. Once proven guilty, you are guilty until it is proven that a mistake was made. (Every day, people die in car accidents. That is very sad, but you don't stop driving over it. Also, innocent people are sometimes convicted. That is sad, but you don't grind the justice system to a halt over it.)

HumanJHawkins
01-26-2010, 08:00 PM
<cut>WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY ARE. We kill to defend our lives and liberty. We don't torture, we don't rape, and we don't act the part of Tyrants. We are the GOOD GUYS.<cut>

Well said. If someone can be rehabilitated, we should try to rehabilitate them. If not, they are like a lion lurking in the grass. They need to be killed quickly and forgotten. But there is no good thing that can come from torturing them. All that does is scar our own conscience.

Almerel
01-26-2010, 09:44 PM
Lol I can't recall where I said I wasn't being taken seriously? And BTW, supporting a Union doesn't automatically make you a leftie. I am a leftie, but it is more of a lucky guess on your part.

If anything, I get frustrated by all the folks who, while seeming to be otherwise normal and intelligent, seem to enjoy being spoon fed their political views by Glen Beck, Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh.

BTW, I am from Canada. We have Liberals here, but they aren't quite what you would call a liberal in the US. Even our farthest right wing mainstream political party (the one that is currently in power) is somewhat farther to the left than your Democratic party. (For proof, I should point out that we have had them in power for about half the time since we got a fully public health care system, and they haven't removed it, although they have tinkered with it). We incarcerate a lot less people than they do in America, and they are even allowed to play D+D in jail! And guess what? Not saying there is a connection, but we have way lower crime statistics than America does. Oh wait, maybe I am saying there is a connection, not to D+D in jail but to a more rehabilitation over punishment model of incarceration.

Or, it might be that Canadians are just plain nicer than Americans? Who knows, I just know that I am a lot less likely to be raped, murdered, robbed, or otherwise victimized here in Canada, in spite of our 'liberal' prison and judicial system and rampant unionism :)

Ok your right... I'm not taking you serious because of your name and what it implies. Luck had nothing to do with it. People can choose to opt out of a union if they're beliefs are not shared with the union. I live in Michigan where the unions are very much left. Mi being such a union state is one of the reasons we can't get any foreign auto makers here.

I get just as frustrated when the left does the same and preach CNN, MSNBC and the other liberal networks and people. I enjoy a good hardy debate on everything regardless if I take the side of what I believe.

You Canadians are definitely nicer than Americans but by shear numbers we have more people that are nice than you guys. When your country is born from war you tend not to be as nice.

Oh and your right wing people acting like our left wing people is just scary imo. Talk about not having diversity ouch.

stilldamom
01-26-2010, 10:00 PM
Though I didn't read all of the posts here, you DO know that when you are in prison, or on probation for being convicted of a felony, you no longer HAVE any constitutional rights, right?

Targoth1
01-26-2010, 11:03 PM
How rude taking the guys D&D away from him.

I mean, if the prison is going to ban fantasy games, they could at least do something constructive, like dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o



Serously though, it was costing the taxpayers nothing to allow prisoners to play their games. What it was doing was giving those individuals a obby, one that was not going to cause trouble for the guards. Of course, now they will have to find some other means of passing the time, one they may not be so harmless. At the very least, by denying this individual his game, the state has already had to pay out four years worth of legal bills in taxpayer money.

Saaluta
01-27-2010, 12:14 AM
I dont care what a person gets put in jail for if you get busted cant get out cant find a lawyer for your dime bag bust then sorry but Prison is supposed to be a punishment. Not a pleasure cruise, not a few months to a couple of years vacation. And sorry if Joe pot head gets thrown into the slammer with killers rapists and theives but as long as having pot is against the law he knows the risk hes taking.

I dont come from the stance as some hard ass conservative either. I come from a person who knows both sides. I have people behind bars in my family people I love who choose the wrong path and are paying for it, I dont think they should have the same luxuries as I do I didnt do the wrong things so I get to enjoy the finer things in life because of that.

And as someone who has been a victim hell yes if your in jail you deserve to suffer as far as im concern. Dont want to go to prison it seems fairly simple to me not to do something to get there. Crimes of passion may happen heck the need to smoke may happen but once your busted you have to deal with it. Prison in my opinion should be a reminder of what you should not have and what you can lose due to your own personal choices. And nothing anyone in this forums or even that know me could ever make me change my mind. I have been a bleeding heart on many causes but for criminals pfft never gonna happen.

Usually Kalari I agree with you, but I have to disagree now. I was sent to jail for 30 days for a crime. My crime was failure to pay child support for the 2nd time in a year. I pay child support to my ex-husband for our 2 sons. The first time I couldn't pay was due to the fact I had to move cross-country. I was moving from Colorado to Florida. As soon as I got to Florida, I paid my child support at the local court house, but I was 3 days late, so it was considered non-payment by the due date. The second time, I was working at a fast food job where I got paid every other Friday. I had gotten paid on the last day of the month and got to the court house around 4:30 in the afternoon. I paid my child support not seeing the sign that said as of the 15th of that month, any payments made after 2 PM would be credited the next business day. Which was on Monday...again 3 days late. So the judge decided to make an example and sent me to jail for 30 days.

Did I break the law? As it was written, yes. Did I deserve to go to jail for 30 days for "missing" those 2 payments? Not as far as I am concerned, but it's over now and I always make sure to pay on time now. But according to your post, I deserved whatever happened to me. That's like painting me with the same brush as a child molester or murderer.

I don't play on Sarlona, so I've never gotten to play with you, but everyone who knows me will tell you I am one of the nicest people around. I frequently help people out in game and IRL. I don't drink, do drugs, and haven't gotten so much as a speeding ticket since I was 16...I'm 36 now going on 37. So I can't agree with the above points in red.

And on the original topic, it is well within the wardens right to deny priveleges to his prisoners, but denying D&D because it promotes gang related ideas...I call BS.

Saal :)

P.S. I too have been a victim of a crime and the person who perpetrated the crime died in prison, but to paint all "criminals" with the same brush isn't right :)

transtemporal
01-27-2010, 12:55 AM
If prison is the awesome beach resort and spa that most of you describe it as, how come you aren't out committing crime?

Kalari
01-27-2010, 12:41 PM
Sal I may have been overly passionate yesterday I shouldnt paint all who go to jail with the same brush but it just kills me that people are saying that those who are in jail for vile crimes like rape and murder should be allowed leisures that people on the outside enjoy. I guess thats just how I feel about it if your in a maximum security prison for the rest of your life because you took the life of another why should I worry if your getting proper recreation for your mind? The person whose dead by their hands will never get to touch a d20.

I just care more about the people left behind and the victims more then those who go to jail im sick of the system as it is. People who do the most horrendous things are treated with kid gloves at times or at worst get off on technicalities only to end up back behind bars on tax dollars.

But I will admit I got upset yesterday all this talk about prison and prisoners just opened old wounds.

Memnir
01-27-2010, 12:42 PM
This was the subject of today's Penny Arcade...



http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/EnPsyane01/pajail.jpg


But, I think Tycho was absolutely correct when he said in the news-post with today's strip that finding out the guy was a sledgehammer murderer does dull my sympathy quite a bit.

Hendrik
01-27-2010, 12:58 PM
I think D&D seems like a great thing to have in prisons. Gets people reading, communicating, working together to problem solve and many other things.

This ruling ****ed me off. I can believe that a prison admin might have a problem with D&D (doesn't say in the article, but I would bet money that at least part of the ban is because D&D is "satan's game" in the mind of someone there.) I can't believe that the 7th Circuit would go along with it.

I want more gang members to play D&D, if for no other reason than my life would be complete if I turned on a hardcore rap video to see "ganstas" showing off their d20 "bling" and rapping about how awesome they are because they have a level 20 paladin.

Scary things happen Mock when people have power and not the intelligence to support it.

Can't believe the claims the Prosecutor made - laughable at best.

Another sad day in a long line for American 'Justice' system. Think I have more faith in Judge Judy.

Zaodan
01-27-2010, 01:01 PM
some of you guys make me laugh. I am a corrections officer. Do i think DND promotes gang activity? About as much as a few guys playing old maid with a deck of cards. Rediculous policy put in place by a higher up who doesnt like nor understand DND.

FWIW Inmates are humans and should have some rights too. Good behavior in prison should be rewarded. If the inmates who play dnd are well behaved model inmates, who get up do their job and dont cuase trouble then let them play! Letting inmates have recreation is not just for their sake. Good morale among the inmates goes a long way toward keeping staff assualts down. Id rather inmates play dnd then think of ways to make stuff to stab me with.

On another note. ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Great post, my friend.

"Slave labor" and "punishment" don't rehabilitate anyone. The dark side of human emotion has led us to believe that the key to "deterring crime" is to treat criminals harshly for an extended period of time and then simply let them out (or not, if they get life/death penalty). Yet, we make NO ATTEMPT to actually rehabilitate criminals. Actually try to give them the skills and education required so they never commit crimes again. Yes, some cannot be rehabilitated without drugs or maybe not at all (psychotics, schitzophrenics, anti-social personality disorder, etc.). Those should be exceptions, not the rule. Its pathetic that the punishment for crimes is "slavery" or simple incarceration, without any attempt at actual rehabilitation.

Zaodan
01-27-2010, 01:14 PM
Though I didn't read all of the posts here, you DO know that when you are in prison, or on probation for being convicted of a felony, you no longer HAVE any constitutional rights, right?

You DO know that you are 100% wrong, right?

Convicted Felons (and only Felons, by the way) lose two and only two Constitutional Rights:
- The right to Vote
- The right to bear arms.

That's it.

And they can petition to have those two rights RESTORED. Many have.

They do NOT lose ANY other rights permanently. And while in prison, they only temporarily lose the right to basic physical freedom, including losing rights involving searches and seizures, and privacy.

They RETAIN all other rights, including 1st Amendment Rights, which are what is at issue in this case.

Please learn the law before you post about it on the internet.

ddaedelus
01-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Please learn the law before you post about it on the internet.

If we learned the law, would we make the same judgment as that judge did, or a different one?

Plus, this thread wouldn't be nearly as much fun to read. :)

KKDragonLord
01-27-2010, 01:39 PM
You DO know that you are 100% wrong, right?

Convicted Felons (and only Felons, by the way) lose two and only two Constitutional Rights:
- The right to Vote
- The right to bear arms.

That's it.

And they can petition to have those two rights RESTORED. Many have.

They do NOT lose ANY other rights permanently. And while in prison, they only temporarily lose the right to basic physical freedom, including losing rights involving searches and seizures, and privacy.

They RETAIN all other rights, including 1st Amendment Rights, which are what is at issue in this case.

Please learn the law before you post about it on the internet.

While laws and social standards are variable, this guy could have been hanged, stoned to death or worse in other places, i never thought there would be a ruling against avenues of imagination.

I am sure the guy won't need the books after learning the game, but its hard to believe that correctional facilities would deem access to cultural activities contrary to their purpose.

prack1975
01-27-2010, 02:18 PM
his cell mate Bubba is going to give him a +12 Greatsword of Backstabbing

unionyes
01-27-2010, 02:38 PM
Ok your right... I'm not taking you serious because of your name and what it implies. Luck had nothing to do with it. People can choose to opt out of a union if they're beliefs are not shared with the union. I live in Michigan where the unions are very much left. Mi being such a union state is one of the reasons we can't get any foreign auto makers here.

I get just as frustrated when the left does the same and preach CNN, MSNBC and the other liberal networks and people. I enjoy a good hardy debate on everything regardless if I take the side of what I believe.

You Canadians are definitely nicer than Americans but by shear numbers we have more people that are nice than you guys. When your country is born from war you tend not to be as nice.

Oh and your right wing people acting like our left wing people is just scary imo. Talk about not having diversity ouch.

Some reply...

The whole idea that the Democrats and Republicans are left and right respectively is a uniquely American thing. In the rest of the world, the Republicans would be very right wing and the Democrats would be right wing, slightly to the left of the Republicans. The same goes for American media. I don't consider CNN or MSNBC to be leftish or even liberal. They are more of right wing light.

As for diversity, in the last Canadian Federal Election, I had the following options to vote for. Conservative Party of Canada (right wing), Alliance Party of Canada (farther right wing), the Liberal Party of Canada (center right), the New Democratic Party of Canada (center left), the Marxist Leninist Party of Canada (left), the Green Party (rightish fiscally leftish socially), the Marijuana Party (one issue party, guess what the issue is), and an independent candidate who was running on the promise that if he was elected he would initiate a private members bill to limit the length of time someone could be prime minister of Canada and deal with recall of elected officials, and then he would resign.

Also our country was born from war (English vs French mostly), although we just dealt with the aftermath differently. Hence we have two official languages, distinct society protections in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and I had to learn French in grades four through six even though it was really hard to find a French teacher in rural Alberta. Heck, we even fought with America a few times, most notably in 1812. We burned the White House down in that particular one, although as we are Canadians I am sure that as we wiped our boots off before we went into it and left a thank you note, along with a written apology saying that we are very sorry and we hope this won't affect our friendship in a negative way :) Heck, we are so nice now that you probably learned in school that it was the British who did that, although I was taught that there were British regulars, English Canadian militia, French Canadian Militia, and Iroquois and Mickmack scouts and reinforcements.

stilldamom
01-27-2010, 07:56 PM
Though I have never been to prison, I know people who have. I can assure you that if your 'rights' are violated, it's your word (a criminal) against theirs (the people who have to babysit you every day).

One of the reasons that this whole thread angers me is that it's MY (yours too) tax dollars that purchase basketballls/hoops, weights, televisions, movies, internet, education (yes, you CAN receive an education behind bars and walk out with a degree) video games, etc, etc. This is money that can be spent on things like a place for homeless people to go, better health care for people who cannot afford it, FOOD for people who cannot afford it, education for people who cannot afford it, and so on.

For the poster that went to jail for not paying child support, there is a HUGE difference between jail (or minimum security prison) and maximum security prison for people who have committed falonies such as kidnapping, child molesting, murder, bank robbing, and so forth. I don't believe you can possibly put yourself into the same category with those mentioned above.

If it is required, I shall make my sign which will read "NO GAMING IN PRISON!!" and march in front of the prison.

Three cheers for the judge that decided against it. BOO for the prisoner that wasted yet more of our fine tax dolllars to actually take this matter to court...

Saaluta
01-27-2010, 08:29 PM
/snip

One of the reasons that this whole thread angers me is that it's MY (yours too) tax dollars that purchase basketballls/hoops, weights, televisions, movies, internet, education (yes, you CAN receive an education behind bars and walk out with a degree) video games, etc, etc. This is money that can be spent on things like a place for homeless people to go, better health care for people who cannot afford it, FOOD for people who cannot afford it, education for people who cannot afford it, and so on.

For the poster that went to jail for not paying child support, there is a HUGE difference between jail (or minimum security prison) and maximum security prison for people who have committed falonies such as kidnapping, child molesting, murder, bank robbing, and so forth. I don't believe you can possibly put yourself into the same category with those mentioned above.


I agree with you on the fact that I hate that our tax dollars are spent on all those things. And I agree with the fact that I'm not in the same category as someone convicted of murder, rape, etc. What I was saying in my post is that I am in a different category than those others. Unfortunately, many others do not see it as such. Due to my "criminal" behavior, I have had trouble getting good jobs, loans(imagine getting turned down for a loan to get a used minivan so you can drive your kids around on visitation weeks(ends)), as well as other social and economic problems. I have been told I can never get a security clearance due to having been in jail. I am a criminal in the minds of the "status quo". Those are the facts and unfortunately, I have to live with them the rest of my life.

And Kalari, thank you for what I read as an apology, we all get passionate about things and sometimes we can go wild when we try to express our views :) ...I hope this came out right...

Saal :)

Kalari
01-27-2010, 10:07 PM
I agree with you on the fact that I hate that our tax dollars are spent on all those things. And I agree with the fact that I'm not in the same category as someone convicted of murder, rape, etc. What I was saying in my post is that I am in a different category than those others. Unfortunately, many others do not see it as such. Due to my "criminal" behavior, I have had trouble getting good jobs, loans(imagine getting turned down for a loan to get a used minivan so you can drive your kids around on visitation weeks(ends)), as well as other social and economic problems. I have been told I can never get a security clearance due to having been in jail. I am a criminal in the minds of the "status quo". Those are the facts and unfortunately, I have to live with them the rest of my life.

And Kalari, thank you for what I read as an apology, we all get passionate about things and sometimes we can go wild when we try to express our views :) ...I hope this came out right...

Saal :)

Yep Saal :) I got overly passionate and didnt think I was just so upset cause I kept thinking back to my own experience and acted close minded its one of the flaws I hate admitting to having but I know its there. So im really sorry and im sorry you went threw what you have to. I know its got to be rough to. Your post did help me calm down though and take a step back so I thank ya for that to.

Dark_Helmet
01-27-2010, 10:45 PM
I agree with you on the fact that I hate that our tax dollars are spent on all those things. And I agree with the fact that I'm not in the same category as someone convicted of murder, rape, etc. What I was saying in my post is that I am in a different category than those others. Unfortunately, many others do not see it as such. Due to my "criminal" behavior, I have had trouble getting good jobs, loans(imagine getting turned down for a loan to get a used minivan so you can drive your kids around on visitation weeks(ends)), as well as other social and economic problems. I have been told I can never get a security clearance due to having been in jail. I am a criminal in the minds of the "status quo". Those are the facts and unfortunately, I have to live with them the rest of my life.



We wouldn't have prison problems if people didn't break the law.... just sayin'! :D

Saaluta
01-27-2010, 10:57 PM
We wouldn't have prison problems if people didn't break the law.... just sayin'! :D

No Hjeals for Jou :)

Saal :)

Grimlust
01-28-2010, 12:10 AM
Not to diverge from the very interesting tangent that this thread has taken, but a small little point...

Technically U.S. Federal law states that anyone who receives a prison sentence becomes "stateless", which in simple terms means they lose their citizenship and therefore any protection or rights under the constitution (which only applies to citizens, legal immigrants and in certain conditions, foreigners visiting the
US). The only reason they get any rights whatsoever is from a parallel set of laws covering the rights of "prosecuted wards of the state", and I am sure D&D isn't covered.....

Zzevel
01-28-2010, 12:15 AM
Only in Wisconsin


Gary Gygax lived just down the road from me in Lake Geneva WI, **** right only in WI!


ANY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD BE IN PRISON ONE DAY. all it takes is one bad decision. how many here have ever driven with a few beers under their belt? hmm? all it takes is for you to get caught, or worse kill someone when you go over the line or are not paying attention and you are in jail too. Would you want to be treated like slave labor becuase you made a bad decision? no you wouldnt. NOTE: does not apply to child molesters or rapists, they should be executed on the spot Judge Dredd style.

Agreed, anyone at any time, people make mistakes and should pay for them, but they are still people. If they get to watch movies and play in the yard, D&D can't hurt, right?



He is a bad dude with a long wrap sheet, he killed his sisters boyfriend because he tried to extort money from him after he robbed a bank...
http://www.madison.com/wisconsinstatejournal/local/31966.html

cdbd3rd
01-28-2010, 09:00 AM
He is a bad dude with a long wrap sheet, he killed his sisters boyfriend because he tried to extort money from him after he robbed a bank...
http://www.madison.com/wisconsinstatejournal/local/31966.html

Article has a lot of 'alledgedlies' in it, and the word of a twice-convicted liar.

Good find, though.


Article I found from a prior gamer (also posted it in the other thread):

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/7th_circuit_rules_dungeons_dra.php#more

cdbd3rd
01-28-2010, 09:12 AM
We wouldn't have prison problems if people didn't break the law.... just sayin'! :D




Nor would we have prison problems if there were no laws to break. ;)

Couldn't resist flipping that over to obverse side of the coin. :D


Just flipped past RPG.net forums -- they're really going to town on this topic.

:eek:

Zzevel
01-28-2010, 10:39 AM
Article has a lot of 'alledgedlies' in it, and the word of a twice-convicted liar.

Good find, though.


Article I found from a prior gamer (also posted it in the other thread):

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/7th_circuit_rules_dungeons_dra.php#more

Nice Pull, I like the sledgehammer part...

Zaodan
01-28-2010, 12:45 PM
Not to diverge from the very interesting tangent that this thread has taken, but a small little point...

Technically U.S. Federal law states that anyone who receives a prison sentence becomes "stateless", which in simple terms means they lose their citizenship and therefore any protection or rights under the constitution (which only applies to citizens, legal immigrants and in certain conditions, foreigners visiting the
US). The only reason they get any rights whatsoever is from a parallel set of laws covering the rights of "prosecuted wards of the state", and I am sure D&D isn't covered.....


This is incorrect.

The loss of the Right to Vote is what *makes* a felon, effectively, "stateless". But there is no such term used in the conviction of felons.

Felons lose certain Federal Rights (Constitutional Rights), and may also possibly lose State's Rights depending on the state. For example, in some states, a felony conviction is be grounds for an uncontested divorce.

I did leave out one more loss of Rights - they lose the right to hold an elected public office.

But again, these Rights can potentially be restored to the ex-felon in some cases.

In addition, non-Citizens ARE covered by the Constitution. I can't tell you how many times I see people claim that they don't have Rights. You CANNOT search someone without a warrant if they are not a citizen. You CANNOT arrest someone for speaking freely if they are not a citizen. You CANNOT arrest someone without probable cause if they are not a citizen. I don't know where people get this crazy idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens (actually, I do, its called the "right-wing fringe"), but its patently NOT TRUE.

unionyes
01-28-2010, 01:13 PM
This is incorrect.

The loss of the Right to Vote is what *makes* a felon, effectively, "stateless". But there is no such term used in the conviction of felons.

Felons lose certain Federal Rights (Constitutional Rights), and may also possibly lose State's Rights depending on the state. For example, in some states, a felony conviction is be grounds for an uncontested divorce.

I did leave out one more loss of Rights - they lose the right to hold an elected public office.

But again, these Rights can potentially be restored to the ex-felon in some cases.

In addition, non-Citizens ARE covered by the Constitution. I can't tell you how many times I see people claim that they don't have Rights. You CANNOT search someone without a warrant if they are not a citizen. You CANNOT arrest someone for speaking freely if they are not a citizen. You CANNOT arrest someone without probable cause if they are not a citizen. I don't know where people get this crazy idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens (actually, I do, its called the "right-wing fringe"), but its patently NOT TRUE.

Amen brother.

The American Constitution applies to everyone who is there, legally or illegally, prisoner or free, black or white, male or female. It says so right in there, right near the top. I believe the word that they used is 'all'.

Human rights are only effective if they apply to everyone who is human. Otherwise, they become selective rights.

Even if you are in prison, you are protected by the American Constitution.

It is not permissible, nor should it be, to beat, rape, torture, enslave, or otherwise mistreat prisoners just because they are prisoners.

They have lost certain liberties as a result of being convicted. They have not lost ALL liberties, nor should they.

If you are concerned about your tax dollars paying for the upkeep of these prisoners, then let them go. Then you won't have to pay for it. It astounds me that many of the same people who clamor for 32 extended life sentences are also the same ones who cry about having to pay for the costs associated with imprisoning someone for 32 consecutive life sentences. And don't talk about the death penalty as a way to save money, since it costs millions to exhaust all the legal avenues before someone is actually executed. And you can't take away the right of a convicted criminal to those legal avenues, because of the Constitutional right to due process (see above).

My advice to my American neighbors would be to change the penalty for most drug convictions for simple possession to misdemeanors, and make them punishable with a fine or community service. Take all that empty space that you now have in your prisons and use it to incarcerate all those people who sell drugs on a large scale, import drugs, etc. You will still have tons of empty prison space, and you could probably close down a bunch of them. Of course, not that prisons are privatized for the most part in the US, you will get a huge fight back from the giant corporations who run the prisons for profit, but it would be worth the fight. You would save billions.

Kalari
01-28-2010, 02:08 PM
Unioneyes you keep talking about drug convictions I get it 420 4evah I went over the top the other day lumping the guy with a nickle bag to the more dangerous felons

But you cannot be serious to say "let criminals go" if we dont want to pay taxes or fund their appeals for the death sentence.

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Have you had a family member taken from you or been exposed to such physical harm you still have issues trusting people. Until you have its really easy to say "oh you guys shouldnt ***** about the prison system."

I speak as someone who not only went threw a horrible act but as someone who has family who has committed horrible acts. I know how its is to be involved on both sides and Id rather they get a punishment for what they willingly chose to do with their lives.

And im sorry people who murder who continue to murder who hurt children should not just be let off.

I was willing to admit that I got overly passionate the other day due to my pain. But if you can honestly say you think we should just let anyone free to solve our crime issues then I just dont know what to say to you im baffled by your logic or lack thereof.

KKDragonLord
01-28-2010, 02:29 PM
My advice to my American neighbors would be to change the penalty for most drug convictions for simple possession to misdemeanors, and make them punishable with a fine or community service.

While things aren't that simple as an effective methodology is required to apply that suggestion, there already are some successful programs implemented by your "american neighbors"

In my very city there is a an "Assisted Liberty" program, currently being studied by UN representatives, that is very successful (72% in three years) in rehabilitating young criminals of 12-18 years through guidance from voluntaries.

Certainly this wouldn't apply for the OP case.

But, i believe that the purpose of Correctional facilities shouldn't be to remove "dysfunctional" members from society, but instead to re-educate them and re integrate them. Its much easier to avoid a problem instead of dealing with it, even if it means to nullify the lives of others.

In fact, i believe that there should be a greater emphasis in studying methods of brainwashing for such purposes, instead of merely for marketing, political or religious purposes, after all, our parental and social institution education systems are the first kind of brainwashing we receive, most of these dysfunctional members could probably be re-educated with the right methods.

Peaceful cultural and social activities such as RPGs are certainly great ways to make individuals consider the consequences of their actions and different points of view from a communal standpoint.

Obviously though, this is a very complicated matter to discuss in a game forum.

Almerel
01-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Amen brother
If you are concerned about your tax dollars paying for the upkeep of these prisoners, then let them go. Then you won't have to pay for it. It astounds me that many of the same people who clamor for 32 extended life sentences are also the same ones who cry about having to pay for the costs associated with imprisoning someone for 32 consecutive life sentences. And don't talk about the death penalty as a way to save money, since it costs millions to exhaust all the legal avenues before someone is actually executed. And you can't take away the right of a convicted criminal to those legal avenues, because of the Constitutional right to due process (see above).



The guy who has earned that many should just get shot in the head and thrown into that pit in 300. Some people can be rehabilitated (*points at self*) but even while I was in the brig there were people who couldn't wait to get back to use and abuse again. Grant it non-violent offenses have a better chance than someone who has a twisted view on humanity.

Or I got it... Anyone seen the movie "Gamer"

Hmmm... I think I need to lay off the movies :p