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  1. #1
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Default ToD Shadow Tanking and why it is superior to kiting in every way

    After seeing way too many wipes in pt2 of ToD, I am now getting frustrated and trying to tell everyone why and how tanking the shadows is superior.

    A few things to note:

    * Cold damage from the Shadows aura does not stack. It is liek a firewall, the highest single tick does damage only.

    * Moving in or out of the auras, you will take damage from them all. This means a damage spike if you try to exit the aura with 4+ shadows around you, or lots of them hit you at once.

    * Anyone with UMD for Fire Shield scrolls or a Bluefire Necklace can tank them with 400+hp

    * A 800hp toon could even tank them without fire shield, just someone cycling Heal/Recon and Protection from Elements.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Now, why tank them instead of kiting?

    First, it is much more reliable. 1 healer or bard healing the shadow tank that has fire shield is very easy. Protection from elements every tick or 2 of damage makes it a breeze.

    Second, of it is a caster or ranged toon tanking, that can still add DPS to Nythiros (sp?).

    Third, it is not limited by class type so anyone can do it. No need to screen casters for one that can kite.
    -------------------------------------------------

    What gear do you need?

    All you need to tank, at a minimum, is Fire Shield. Scrolls are ok, and you can refresh it when the shadows vanish and respawn. If the fight will last more than 90 seconds after you refresh, then you will need the Bluefire necklace from Litany of the Dead. Unbound so you can buy it just like the Cloak of Ice, but it is exclusive.

    From here we can stack cold absorption. The best is a triple water GS weapon offering 10/15/20% cold absorption.
    It is a single shard, 3 LDS recipe. I would recommend to any arcane that will run ToD regularly. Tier2 is also decent for a self healing arcane.

    You can also put 15% cold absorption on any junk ToD ring. Not a bad option as you will most likely have 20-50 more runs before you get the rings you need/want.

    If you are a self healing, self casting fire shield and protection from elements arcane, I would just make the 15% absorption ring.

    In order of effectiveness:

    * Fire shield (50%) + Triple Water GS weapon (45%) + Protection from Elements
    or
    * Fire Shield (50%) + ToD Ring Cold Absorb (15%) + Protection from Elements
    or
    * Fire Shield (50%) + Protection from Elements
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    How to actually tank?

    I will talk about gaining Shadow agro first, as this is where a lot of kiting wipes happen in the first 10 seconds.

    Firewall was very popular before the spell pass. it still is, but shouldn't be.

    Any spell that offers a reflex save for half, and evasion meaning 0 damage should be avoided.
    The Shadows have evasion, not a huge reflex save, but enough that they do Evade a firewall or Blade Barrier and waltz right up to the party and kill people.

    The best spells are large AoE that offer no save. My favourite for an Arcane in Incendiary cloud, it casts fast, has a large AoE and no save for the damage.

    Solid fog is good too, and the solid fog clickies are great as they cast faster now too.

    Blade barrier is still ok as they have to Evade it twice, but Obscuring Mist or SF clicky for a tanking Divine are good.

    So now you have agro, you stand still at the bottom of the stairs.

    If self healing and prot elementing, cycle your heals/recon/neg energy burst with protection from elements. This will negate 1-1.5 ticks of damage with just Fire Shield, more as you add absorption gear.

    If getting healed by someone else (Bard or 2nd/3rd Divine) you will need to trust them. They should be doing the same as above, and skilled Divines will be able to add DoTs to Nythiros too.

    If self healing but no quickened protection from Elements (Bard, Pally, Ranger etc) then any divine can just toss a Protection from Elements every 6-10 seconds.

    A melee with SF pots and Bluefire necklace could tank too. I know Ayspam tanks with SF pots on his fleshy Sorc.

    Just remember to keep up any fog/cloud spells for agro, and communicate when needed, and STAND STILL. Vertical movement is ok, but not horizontal ie jumping is ok.
    -------------------------------------

    That is it really, it is quite simple but I broke it down so it is easy to understand the how and why.

    If requested, I can possibly post videos tanking on WF Wizard, WF Bard and WF Barb.

    I hope this helps, and turns kiters into tanks

    Edit: "I don't have the gear" is not an excuse, I have stated many times that only fireshield and protection from elements are needed. UMD or cast fireshield. yea you might need gear like bluefire necklace if you want to tank on hard where it takes longer. Absorb gear past this just gives you more time to DoT or drink your beer between heals.
    Last edited by Khellendros13; 10-10-2011 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Corrected some info
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  2. #2
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    well ive never seen anyone fail tanking the shadows, but ive seen plenty fail kiting them. Problem is few go tanking route or claim they dont have the gear to do it?

  3. #3
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I saw 1 person tank them once, but couldn't get an explanation as to how they did it. I usually kite, but thats cause I thought it was a melee attack hitting me. Knowing whats actually happening makes me think tanking would be SOO much easier. Thanks for this.
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  4. #4
    Community Member azmodeus1's Avatar
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    its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

    don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

    i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Qzipoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    I saw 1 person tank them once, but couldn't get an explanation as to how they did it. I usually kite, but thats cause I thought it was a melee attack hitting me. Knowing whats actually happening makes me think tanking would be SOO much easier. Thanks for this.
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I actually think the shadows don't have any melee attacks at all.

    OP is correct but I still ask people to kite in my parties because if someone dies kiting, the shadows have to make it all the way to the party before damage is done (plenty of time for the backup to kick in) whereas if you have someone tanking they are usually at the stairs and if they screw up you have very little recovery time. With that said, if I put someone on kiting duty and they tank them, great, just don't wipe the party Guess it's just a matter of trust, if everyone was willing to tank and knew what they were doing it would be fine, but until then I see kiting happening for a while. A critical mass kind of deal

  6. #6
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azmodeus1 View Post
    its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

    don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

    i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.
    Tanking is superior because it can be done with nothing but a fire shield clicky/fire shield and someone watching your back - and is much less risky. the gear listed (absorption items) is not hard to get, considering most melees have to build 1 or 2 mineral II's to make the cut into the raid, and casters dont need much greensteel to begin with. Even a tier 2 item is nice, but not necessary. The other day I tanked them on my paladin because our favored soul wiped the first run by dieing while kiting, so I threw up a fire shield with UMD, solid fog clicky, and healed myself with lay on hands / cure serious pots / had a 2nd healer watching me.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    well ive never seen anyone fail tanking the shadows, but ive seen plenty fail kiting them. Problem is few go tanking route or claim they dont have the gear to do it?
    That is exactly why I posted this.

    You can tank them with just fire Shield. I have done it, and I listed that as an option. You just need more heals and someone to cast protection from Elements.

    A Pale Master or WF Arcane can manage all 3 of those things easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by azmodeus1 View Post
    its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

    don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

    i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.
    Never had them catch you? Lag never kills you kiting? You must be the best kiter out there.

    Can you post a guide on flawless kiting then please?

    Nythiros is so easy to heal on, a single Divine can solo heal on Hard. Only 1 person will have agro, and these days it is usually a Defender with ac and/or shield DR. Or a Barbarian with 800hp. Heal and some mass heals. Elite ToD you would take 3 healers...so the 3rd can easily DP and heal the shadow tank.

    As I said, I have tanked them on my Bard, with about 560hp using a Yugo pot, and just a Fire Shield scroll. I had some outside healing and the occasional Protection From Elements, and used a SF clicky. This was after we wiped with failed kiting.

    You can kite perfectly, but the majority of khyber cannot. If you want to kite and do so without failing, sure, go ahead I don't care. This guide is for those that have trouble kiting, or are starting to run ToD and avoid joining or are declined because they have never kited.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protokon View Post
    Tanking is superior because it can be done with nothing but a fire shield clicky/fire shield and someone watching your back - and is much less risky. the gear listed (absorption items) is not hard to get, considering most melees have to build 1 or 2 mineral II's to make the cut into the raid, and casters dont need much greensteel to begin with. Even a tier 2 item is nice, but not necessary. The other day I tanked them on my paladin because our favored soul wiped the first run by dieing while kiting, so I threw up a fire shield with UMD, solid fog clicky, and healed myself with lay on hands / cure serious pots / had a 2nd healer watching me.
    Exactly. UMD Fire Shield is only an issue if the DPS sucks or it is Elite and that fight takes much longer without room to refresh a scroll...though you could time it so the cold damage is absorbed while you use a scroll.

    Also, it is Cold aura damage only, no physical. Shield blocking does not help.

    However a Shield and Shield Mastery would reduce the aura damage by another 20%.
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    Numot talks enough for like 10 people. So yeah, 13 people in that channel.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Can I suggest people that might not want to invest 3 LDS in a 10/15/20 cold absorb item do at least invest 3 MDS (medium devil scales) in a 10/15 cold absorb item.

    23.5% absorption goes a long way. Not quite as far as the full 38.8% absorption of a tier 3 one, but it's a real boost. And easier to acquire than 9 trophies for newer arcanes.

  10. #10
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    Tanking is the easy button, and as such should be used unless there's a ginormously huge reason not to. As was already said, a tanking arcane/divine can keep dots stacked on Nythirios adding DPS that would be lost if he kited, and if someone tells me they can keep a perfectly timed double-dot stack on Nythirios while kiting, I'm kindly gonna ask for a vid.

    Plus, while tanking you can literally grab some snacks and keep yourself busy, especially if the group dps is meh. Absorb weapons are cheap, they're literally worth an hour of scroll farming per.

    Btw, you don't have to stand completely still, you can freely jump up and down to get a better angle to polar/necro ray Nythirios without any risk. As for spells I mostly just use cloudkill/ice storm + pm aura, only time I had one shadow loose was when there was another PM standing a bit too close

    And no, kiting isn't hard or anything with a bit of practice, there's just no real point to it.
    Last edited by sweez; 10-09-2011 at 09:38 PM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Jendrak's Avatar
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    Having seen a wipe while someone was attempting to tank I feel you missed something very important.

    Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.
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  12. #12
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.
    I adjust my sight by viewing things from first person instead of over the shoulder.

    I've never had a problem with placing a firewall or cloudkill after trying that.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    Having seen a wipe while someone was attempting to tank I feel you missed something very important.

    Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.
    If you are on the base of the stairs, which the shadows must navigate past first to get on the platform, you just cast/use clicky without a target, or target a shadow.
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  14. #14
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Funny, people complained about tanks just standing there spamming intim and now arcanes should just stand there spamming prot cold? Running is funner.

  15. #15
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    Funny, people complained about tanks just standing there spamming intim and now arcanes should just stand there spamming prot cold? Running is funner.
    Nope arcanes or divines should be adding DPS via DoT's/AoE/Polar Ray too once comfortable tanking. You really cannot compare the two as this is 1 particular fight.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Alternative's Avatar
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    Having kited the shadows in a 2 man run for over 10 minutes while keeping dots on the boss also, I will never waste a single funk on some cold absorb item. Tanking might work for some, but it shouldn't be the only acceptable way to handle tod pt2.

  17. #17
    Community Member MysteryNotes's Avatar
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    Having tried tanking for the first time a few days ago on my wizzy, i have to agree with the OP that it certainly is easier.

    Not going to run around and kite shadows when i can just sit there and spam one spell, heh.

    And; as a pale master i don't even need to heal myself since the shadows deal so little damage with a 45% cold absorb item(Cheap to make too!) that all i need to do is sit there and cast protection from elements on myself.

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  18. #18
    Community Member Astraghal's Avatar
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    I always wondered if this could work, but it's so late in the raid that noone ever wants to experiment. Anything that requires investment (greensteel) is usually not pursued. I wouldn't mind trying this on a melee with Epic Frozen Plate, Epic Helm of the Red Dragon, a tier2 cold absorb item and Silver Flame Pots. The only problem is aggro management, if a Shadow got past and was hit with AoE or glancing blow spam, there would be no way to get it back.

    Anyone ever tested to see if the 20% cold absorbtion on the Epic Frozen Plate is the same as the greensteel property, or will they stack?

  19. #19
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    You can also get 20% cold absorption as the random enchantment on a dream edge from mindsunder.

  20. #20
    Community Member IanYang's Avatar
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    Thank you. This info is just useful.

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