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  1. #1

    Default Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

    Wow, this raid can lead to a lot of headaches if your not careful and not watching things around you. So I am going to start at the beginning of the raid.

    The place where you start in the raid makes no sense, your are practically in the middle of the demon web. If this is your first time there you can easily go the wrong way, and run around the WHOLE map for hours looking for Ana. Sure the start of the raid is "Down the hill" and you watch a small show, but the little drama that unfolds pales in comparison with the drama in the tower of despair or even the lord of blades. It would make more sense to start where you have to take Ana out of the Demon Web, that way players would know where to take her after they find her as well as helping people plan a route to the end. You could always move the drama to the platform right after the exit and it will still fit right in.

    Now once you find Ana, Lolth pops up and starts "Death Beaming" people. Which can get REALLY annoying fast, makes you look for a spot that you don't have line of sight and if you run your going to get zapped. Sometimes she has three to four of these beams hitting people and it really puts a toll on the healers in the party, especially if there on the healers (Quicken is a MUST). Also if you hide to long Lolth starts casting the annoying spell traps that slow you down and stuff which makes it even hard to run when you need to.

    If you run from Lolth you might accidentally run into "Barrier" and the next thing you know your up to your neck in baddies somewhere FAR from the party. This could lead to an easy wipe of a person sitting out for 10-30 min. as the party makes it way to the lost person(s). Please don't make the "Barrier"s do this, instead make them knock you down like air elementals away from them, this way you won't have people getting frustrated because they now have to hike 5-10 min back to the party. Plus the "Barrier"s don't look like they would telaport people till one tries.

    As for falling down in the demon web, it could get taxing real fast. 1d4 negative levels plus 100+ damage on top of 200+ spell point drain! It's bad enough you get knocked off by Lolths hand and foot, but **** I would rather die then lose that much resources. We could have Ana set up shrines but that would require us to spend even more resources in hunting down the stupid orbs and fighting Lolth and her "Beams of DOOM". I am fine with 1d4 levels and some damage, but the SP drain is a real pain and could make people frustrated more so in this raid.

    When running around and trying to regroup me and a few others seemed to pass areas that would deal us force damage(Arcane waves) and we don't even know whats causing this. Me and a few others have died trying to get through it and nearly cause a party wipe because the healers could not see where the damage was coming from. I feel that this unnecessary and in no way helpful in an already confusing raid. Unless an icon shows up, and or some kind of graphic shows that you are crossing a hazard area, this effect should not even be used. Tired of pointless random deaths from a force that is busy "dealing" with my friends across the map.

    The fights are ok, but some times when you got 3-4 Handmaidens it gets ugly real fast with the spamming of comet fall and power word stun with there small army of fortification piercing spies you might lose a few men or just wipe in a glory of spell spam and arrows. Please spread out the pockets of spawns with Ana so they don't congregate all in one area of death.

    I was hoping to fight Lolth herself and not something that looks like a half finished model... Lolth still acts very static and looks horrible shooting eye beams and sending disembodied hands and feet after people. Don't know what to say but I am underwhelmed but the amount of effort put into the raid art wise, we get this great art of Lolth in her full form, we travel through 4 wilderness and 14 quests for a capstone raid to fight disembodied limbs and a really half finished placeholder of dimi-god. My bard finds the Lord of Blades more intimating then a scantly clad woman's torso. Sorry for ripping into the people who are the art designers for Lolth and this raid but I feel rather let down after all I seen in the expansion pack especially after the Kings forest.

    I personally don't mind escort missions but sometimes it's pain trying to escort some one who might get stuck on geometry or have a "Herp a Derp" moment and gets themselves into a fight that was not needed. Ana seems rather stable but a few time she got caught in corners and such that it was a pain to move her out of. God forbid she some how falls off into the void, then we have to go hunt her down across the map.

    The end fight was brutal and wiped once and nearly wiped a second time till we finally beat enough gate keepers to get past the wall and on out. Please allow us more then 30-60 seconds to run up past the wall or allow Ana to do what she normally does to arcane walls and blast them. Ana has shown us twice if not three times she can break down arcane walls. Don't make us rush to or deaths thinking she could do the same here...

    This raid took a group of 15ish people to complete in 220 mins. (3.66 hours) and about 100-200 sp pots on Epic Casual. Only though Iron wills and determination did we finish and finish we did for some REALLY BAD VENDER TRASH. I think I will go cry in a corner and pray to bardic god Breca for his blessing on the Fate singer destiny.

    Images for proof:




    Group Picture:


    Path to the end:


    Please feel free to leave any comments, I know there might be better groups out there and I would like to hear how you handled some of the stuff in this raid.

  2. #2
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    Worst raid in the game. Worst quest of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them. Far too often players use it as a tool to push there own agenda and twist numbers to cause strife where its not due.

  3. #3
    Community Member Judo's Avatar
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    Tedious, monotonous, boring...


    All in all, not remotely fun, which is certainly the key criticism.

    You kill the same set of mobs, over and over and over. What happened to the creative raids, like von5, titan even. Those raids were fun to learn. There is no learning here. There is only working your way to an annoying ending. And I do mean work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them. Far too often players use it as a tool to push there own agenda and twist numbers to cause strife where its not due.

  4. #4
    Community Member DeadRabbat's Avatar
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    We tried this raid twice. Once the night before with no healers (druid/bard yes) and got annihilated pretty fast.
    This night (Friday) we set out with 6 of us to start. Two dc'd or raged quit out and others joined midway & at the end. Over all we had a balanced group of lvl25s even though we did this raid on casual...mainly to see it all way through and familiarize ourselves with it before live.

    As a Dwarf Light Monk... those Force beam Dots hurt. I was taking 93-103 damage per tick which eats you up really fast, and it seems that there was no way to remove them. But someone did figure a way...not sure what helped..but most of my deaths (17) (over 700hp with buffs..over 800hp with every ones buffs) came from those Dots when trying to get Ana to follow and away from Lolth.

    The layout is confusing as all get out. Very easy to get lost in and we did. Also noticed at times a few of the web bridges disappeared. not fun.
    We had 4 Artifacts left to get..but gave up on them due to the huge damage Lolth did. You need to hurt her and seems only magic & range can do that. She won't drop the barriers until she leaves & at one time we had 7 spell wards going on around us with another 7 within close vicinity that Lolth throws down if you take to long killing her (for each artifact destroyed).

    The end fight was wave after wave of minions we already killed, back to haunt us in soul form (Mabar wraps for the win) along with the Maidens (both dead and alive) & of course Lolth and her nasty eye beams of doooom. Too many spells going off and too many minions all clustered on small platforms ...have good connection or this will be a lag fest.
    The final was anticlimactic. No real boss fight..just the minions galore before the final. The final.. sigh.
    Place holder for Elminster. The loot was... vender loot. Lvl 20+ but nothing anyone would want for their lvl 23+ characters. No new items dropped, which i can understand somewhat..want it new and shiney for live but was still disappointing as hell. One chest. I am sure if we destroyed ll the artifacts we would have gotten a second one.
    Finishing out since the portal didn't work we got our end quest reward from Elminster himself... I took the Tales of Valor. Yep. that good. The best item someone got was a +6Cha & +15 Haggle necklace. Not bad, but i have my cove hat i can wear at level 12 that does the same thing.

    This raid to me was not fun. Was aggravating and annoying. I will run again on beta but I don't think I will on live. Too much time and effort for little satisfaction. Plus, after looking at the Relics on the Purple Dragon Knight Favor guy... nothing for a Monk. I am assuming that the Relics will drop from the raid.
    Coyle is more fun, at least you can knock him out.

    The only shrines you get are rest shrines and those come from Ana and only when she destroys an artifact will she have enough power to make one.
    The group was fun. We hated the raid but laughed and cried through it. Not sure if casual is really casual..it did say lvl 21.. but those Force beams are the trouble. The minions can be dealt with... tone down those Force Dots. Please.

    Over all... You need good strong tactics & someone who can replenish SP. Two to three healers as well... they went through a lot of pots on this...more then LoB epic (what the healers said) when it came out.

    I know a few people completed the raid when it first opened that one night in a shortman fashion..but we had a great group and still had extreme difficulty.
    Anyway, I have rambled too long. I am not impressed. Sorry to the developers who made this... but I did not find it fun or entertaining.

    DR.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That ship has sailed, came back, sailed again, got raided by pirates, became a pirate ship, got cursed to chase after the Flying Dutchman for three centuries, got exorcised to fight in the American Civil War, then got modernized to fight in both World Wars, participated in the D-Day landing and is a decommissioned museum/restaurant now in Key West, Florida.
    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    I knew i should have actually tested this.

  5. #5
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Lol, 586 monsters killed!

  6. #6
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Casual?
    220min?

    Does not compute. Casual players dont have that much time. Thats the whole idea, casual play - log on for a short time and get some progress...

    Does not sound to be intended.

    Raids were never intended to be available on casual difficulty. They purposely disabled in all raids because they are designed to be very long adventures.. I dont think you were doing a mode that was intended to be ran.

  7. #7
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadRabbat View Post
    I know a few people completed the raid when it first opened that one night in a shortman fashion..but we had a great group and still had extreme difficulty.
    I heard some issues where casual was acting more like elite for the raid. I dont think its intended to be available for raids.

  8. #8
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    wow this looks like fun
    /sarcasm off

    comon 3 hrs for casual that is totaly rediculas.
    and sp drain with no shrines HMMMMMMMMMMMMM anyone think turbine milking sp pots

    i can see this being run even less then master arti or lob
    Main:- Clerivast - 3rd life - 30 Cleric, Alt:- Aobhiel - 3rd life - 30, 12 Monk , 6 Ranger, 2 Fighter
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Casual?
    220min?

    Does not compute. Casual players dont have that much time. Thats the whole idea, casual play - log on for a short time and get some progress...

    Does not sound to be intended.

    Raids were never intended to be available on casual difficulty. They purposely disabled in all raids because they are designed to be very long adventures.. I dont think you were doing a mode that was intended to be ran.
    This was not much of an issue of running on casual as to normal. On normal you would get the foot of Lolth, on casual you do not get the foot. The monster hit points did scale right and so was the damage, the high time was due to waiting on people after they fell for regrouping and near wipes with 90-130 point Lolth beams. Every time I fell I had to spend 5-10 min of running to re-join the group, some times I would get maimed from the areas that had Arcane waves and die. What REALY slowed us down was that you could not engage Lolths image with Melee due to one or two factors: 1) Lolth was to far away from the edge of the word and could not reach her aside from ranged comabat and spells. 2) The healers where unwilling to dump Mana on themselves and the melees who where getting ripped up.

    I do shudder on how hard it is on normal scaling.

  10. #10
    Community Member Meyhnach's Avatar
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    ok lets do it again on norm (Axle-1)

  11. #11
    Community Member DeadRabbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Casual?
    220min?

    Does not compute. Casual players dont have that much time. Thats the whole idea, casual play - log on for a short time and get some progress...
    Does not sound to be intended.
    Raids were never intended to be available on casual difficulty. They purposely disabled in all raids because they are designed to be very long adventures.. I dont think you were doing a mode that was intended to be ran.
    I Remember that Casual was not to be played earlier in the closed beta program & that it was wonky. With the open beta, I figured it would have changed...the option for casual is there and accessible. It may not be scaled right.

    To me most of it seemed fine for an Epic raid except for those force dots. Combine those with the slow effect from the Spell wards..Death!
    We ran it on normal the first night and I was the one who suggest casual and like i said in my previous post..it was more to get a feel & through it before ramping up the fun...but sadly, the raid wasn't. Main reason is..we had no clue & the inability for melee to attack Lolth was .... well blah. I would imagine she would stay away so mortals couldn't hurt her. Makes sense. Why be near when you can attack from afar. But if you don't have the right group composition, then that will make the fight horrible lopsided and long. Tossing basic Flametouched Alchemical Shuriken does not do much to Lolth.
    Ahhhitburns, a 25 Druid did 90% of the damage to Lolth when we had to fight her to continue.
    This could be a fun Raid once you know where to go and tactics to take...that take s away the rp feel knowing everything already but it is an uber raid and ...well we already memorize the other raids.

    The biggest frustration was the separation of the party...through transportation barriers after breaking an artifact & falling. With how vast the demonweb is & layered and the fact that the paths will probably change from raid to raid will get annoying to many. This is the same demon web wilderness area we already went to..familiarize the terrain & it will be easier, but me and others did believe that new paths were in place then with the wilderness area.

    Even though we spent 3 hours in there & died..ooh 76 deaths total and *****ed and moaned...we all did have fun. because of the group.

    The raid timer says..i don't remember at the moment..but i got the quest right back from Elminster even though hitting /quest said there was a timer, as well as a timer for graveyard for me. But you can go right back to these quests and do them again.

    DR.
    ps. This was my first epic raid. I am not geared for epics. Second life. I have always felt intimidated by epics after reading the forums. This new system will help ease people like me into Epics more. sad they are being washed down in tokens.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That ship has sailed, came back, sailed again, got raided by pirates, became a pirate ship, got cursed to chase after the Flying Dutchman for three centuries, got exorcised to fight in the American Civil War, then got modernized to fight in both World Wars, participated in the D-Day landing and is a decommissioned museum/restaurant now in Key West, Florida.
    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    I knew i should have actually tested this.

  12. #12
    Community Member DeadRabbat's Avatar
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    This forum needs a sticky. All the other quests have stickies...why not the raid?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That ship has sailed, came back, sailed again, got raided by pirates, became a pirate ship, got cursed to chase after the Flying Dutchman for three centuries, got exorcised to fight in the American Civil War, then got modernized to fight in both World Wars, participated in the D-Day landing and is a decommissioned museum/restaurant now in Key West, Florida.
    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    I knew i should have actually tested this.

  13. #13
    FlimsyFirewood
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    Lolth's beams will now do randomly-typed damage instead of Force, which will give you guys more tools to mitigate it, however one of the types of damage is spell points so casters will have to be careful.

    The random area 'force damage' was just Lolth's beams at an absurd distance, when the beams would fail to draw. That has been toned down, so she will only shoot at you when you're close enough.

  14. #14

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    Where's the loot?
    Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi, Nichevo-1 | 75 million Reaper XP

  15. #15
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Lolth's beams will now do randomly-typed damage instead of Force, which will give you guys more tools to mitigate it, however one of the types of damage is spell points so casters will have to be careful.

    The random area 'force damage' was just Lolth's beams at an absurd distance, when the beams would fail to draw. That has been toned down, so she will only shoot at you when you're close enough.
    Um, spell point damage seems like it would be really unpoplar. Becase not only casters use SP, but paladins and the such too. random type od damage, yes. Spell point damage, no.

    Unless i'm missing some info and there's crystals or something which have a HOT effect on SP.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.
    Feature wishlist: colour-coded HP bars; red/blue teams in raids; rez-timer in party menu

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  16. #16
    FlimsyFirewood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Where's the loot?
    How many chests did you get?

  17. #17
    Community Member DeadRabbat's Avatar
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    Our group ran it on Epic Casual. Just one chest. No epic chest. We did not complete the optional, had 4 of the 12 artifacts left.
    I would suggest maybe lowing the artifact amount to 10. having 12 throughout the confusing raid will lead to tedium and people getting miffed.

    DR.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That ship has sailed, came back, sailed again, got raided by pirates, became a pirate ship, got cursed to chase after the Flying Dutchman for three centuries, got exorcised to fight in the American Civil War, then got modernized to fight in both World Wars, participated in the D-Day landing and is a decommissioned museum/restaurant now in Key West, Florida.
    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    I knew i should have actually tested this.

  18. #18
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    Did another normal epic run this afternoon to test the changes/upgrades.






    Overall:

    Seems like a fairly balanced raid, like the touch with the respawns. The end fight is a bit better than before, but still just a bit off. Nice upgrades with Anna and the hand to make it less frustrating. Can't wait to see when epic elite is properly scaled.
    Teth - Ascendance

    Old School n00b that used to be pretty good at the game.

  19. #19
    Community Member Artagon's Avatar
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    I haven't played it yet.. but the xp/time ratio seems really really low, especially since that party barely even scratched the surface of the optional.

  20. #20
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    How many chests did you get?
    We got 1 again today. No lootz.
    GROAN-1 (Melee/Casting Horc FVS)

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