AI Awareness!

[ForumAccess]

Some interesting stuff here. I am not really sure if it is really going to make Stealth very mainstream, but even if it is just used by PD and 'explorer' type players it still sounds very neat.

I’ve begun updating monsters to fire at your most recent known position when they can’t see you, where they used to cheat and fire directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.

I would assume that 'fire' includes spells as well? How about spells that can not be 'soft targeted'?

[The_Winged]

• White footsteps still indicate that you are sneaking near a monster who might hear you if you get closer, and will still play only if sneaking. That's one of the benefits of trying to be sneaky : )
• Monsters should no longer slide around when they are searching for a hidden enemy. Instead, we’re going to be adding a visual cue that doesn’t look like an animation bug.
• We’re going to try giving them a “searching” icon to indicate that they haven’t found a target yet.
• Similarly, we want to give monsters a “red ear” icon whenever they hear a suspicious noise.
• We now have the ability to give your character the awareness to know when you have aggro from something. This will allow us to do things like putting you into combat stance rather than standing around idly until you’re getting punched in the head.

In my opinion this feature should not be automatic or given to everyone but player would have to get a spot/listen higher than monster CR to notice he has been noticed this feature is so strong and give such an advantage that player should do something to get it. it will also make tanks get those skills to control the hate on them. also the hate or monster interest drop over time so these icons could be scaled (by size or opacity) with dropping hate or monster interest.

Stealth should have the following advantages over mere invisibility:

1. With sufficiently high skill, monsters won’t hear you, allowing you to avoid detection completely as you sneak by (go go move silently!)
2. Escaping combat using sneak - this largely hasn't been possible before, but we’d like skilled players with appropriate skills to be able to escape completely by activating sneak and escaping the area where their opponents last saw them. When monsters search the area they lost you in making blind attacks, they should lose aggro over time and eventually give up if they receive no additional clues to your location. I’ve been spending a lot of time on this, as it was the most requested fix by stealth enthusiasts on the forums, and from my testing I think it'll be quite fun : )
3. Assassinate! Still finalizing the application here but the goal is making sure our Assassins can … you know… assassinate things!

I think i am not the only one who remembers the time when deepwood snipers sniped shot was supposed not to break stealth and what made him a real usefull sniper. Can we expect that or not?

[Cyr]

I'm not really all that excited for YET ANOTHER new system to be introduced to an (obviously) already overburdened game engine. The graveyard wasteland of half-finished abandoned systems (crafting systems in particular) is already to the point of ridiculous. Add in the fact that any time a new system is introduced it break a dozen other things and this is really shaping up to be not a good thing.

Good luck with your new system. I'm glad you're revamping a system that, while not perfect, seems to work adequately. Let's make no mention of the other things that could use attention, even just within the realm of the UI. New shiny stuff is WAY better than fixing or even completing the other stuff. NEW SHINEYS!

I guess the upside is that when this new system crashes and burns, you will release a new creature companion to distract people from how poorly it works. If it's tiny mudmen I won't even be mad!

Yup this right here. The game needs more content, bug fixes, and systems work to actually be finished and integrated with other systems that came out later. Finish the work you start Turbine, stop littering the game with half baked systems.

[Cyr]

You must have missed the part where it started out by finding bugs and causes for lag there. If a new mechanic enables to take away several not completely working ones that CAUSE lag, and replace them with one simpler mechanic developed with all these causes of lag and errors in mind, its exactly what many of us have been asking for!

Tirbaalis

Uh huh, because the way to fix bugs is to just make new systems. The game should be bug free if that was the case with all the random new systems the devs have thrown in over the past few years.

[Fixil]

Thx for letting us know some of your ideas and the work you are doing, great to hear.
Don't worry about the whiners, we really do like the communications.

[Tscheuss]

Uh huh, because the way to fix bugs is to just make new systems. The game should be bug free if that was the case with all the random new systems the devs have thrown in over the past few years.

Replacing bugged subsystems with a cleanly designed and tested subsystem is an accepted approach to fixing bugs.

[LightBear]

First I would like to say 3 things to No_Dice:
1) Thx;
2) Thx;
3) Thx!

Secondly I have one question:
-) How does float (from the Epic Destiny Tier 6 Shadow dancer Shadow Form and/or Shroud of the Vampire/Wraith/Lich from Pale master) effect the AI for Invisibility and/or move silent?
The hovering above the ground animation gives me the impression that less noise is made when moving around. I can't find any DnD rules on this so far (sorry for bringing that in).

[IRememberWhen]

I am excited to learn of these changes. Excellent comments from other posters.

There are ways to briefly break aggro, like with Bluff--my assassin does this in conjunction with Sap in order to set up multiple assassination attempts if necessary--a quick assassination attempt right after bluff can be done in the brief window available.

In fact, please consider how Sap might be further integrated into the stealth makeover. For example, if a rogue sneaks up and saps a mob, the rogue could avoid aggro (and maybe even avoid alerting the mob altogether). I suppose you could extend this to Stunning Blow and Stunning Fist if the attack is done while hidden. Also, maybe have Sap not break stealth when successful? This would increase interest in the Sap feat. (Please do not nerf it.)

How about what happens when you bluff a mob while hidden and stealthed? Right now, they really freak out and swing around, or shoot randomly. It could be redesigned to temporarily increase your stealth numbers in relation to that one mob.

DDO is fun for me because the stealth mechanics fit my playstyle. The new enhancement lines allowing rangers and rogues to do damage with their Dex on light weapons will really aid in this tactic, since it gives an incentive to focus heavily on stealth's main ability.

[kamimitsu]

First off: THANK YOU!!!!!

I'm an big promoter of the stealth lifestyle (one only has to look at the R.O.G.U.E. Proving Grounds to see that). One of the great things about DDO is that there are so many ways to go about completing a quest. Yet, there are very few quests that can be fully stealthified. FlimsyFirewood has been my hero for some time, given his support of stealth-ready quests. You, No_Dice, are now on my radar!

I don't have to tell you that Monster AI in regards to stealth has been less than consistent, so I'm very excited to hear that is being addressed. One of the saddest moments in my DDO tenure was when Sannyasi (in the Monastery) developed super-acute echolocation.

If I might make a slight suggestion, I highly recommend you look to an older PlayStation series, TENCHU, for inspiration on application of icons. Monsters in that game have 3 modes "patrol", "searching", and "aggroed". To indicate their status, icons appear above their heads briefly when they change status: a yellow question mark for "searching" and a red exclamation for "aggroed". They will also say things like "Where are you!?", "I found you!", or "I guess it was nothing" which the player can hear if close enough. I'm undecided as to whether monster overhead icons are disruptive to the game's immersion. However, one could simply make a small circle in the target reticule with the appropriate mob-state icon (or alternately a toggle to have it overhead vs. in reticule), so that players who have a mob targeted would know its AI status.

I'll reserve comment or judgement until after I see the changes in action, but it pleases me to no end to hear that someone is addressing the AI issues for those with a stealthy preference.

Until then, happy sneaking.

ps. Lest anyone doubt my sneakitude (and because, ironically, I like to show it off) feel free to check out Stealth Midler Farmhouse Epic Elite, N/H/E Monastery on a level 13 and Duo Stealth Epic Claw of Vulkoor

[Qezuzu]

Part of me is glad that stealth is getting some love, but another part of me is worried that it will become too mind-numbingly easy.



I mean just look at this. This is epic ****ing elite. I know it's Carnival, but eGH is the same thing. This **** should not fly, even with my absurdly high stealth scores.

The only current challenge with stealth right now is dealing with goof ups. Sure, it's not realistic right now for a mob to track you down through an entire quest based on one sighting, but the alternative, being able to shed aggro by popping into stealth, is just too easy. With this change, I'm worried that people will not truly stealth: they'll just zerg in invis, and at an opportune time pop into stealth and scurry away.

Some changes I recommend:

• For every mob that sights you, all mobs in the dungeon should be "alarmed" and have bonuses to spot/listen. Every time you get spotted again, the bonus increases, and will keep increasing to the point where your hide skill becomes totally ineffective
• More caster mobs should have True Seeing, and, if they suspect an invisible player, will start casting it on themselves and other mobs. They do NOT have to aggro the player to start casting; if they think they hear something, they'll cast TS just to make it a bit harder for the player. TS should also give a bonus to spot.
• The auto-detect cone of sight should be extended. That picture up there is just sad. I could probably have gotten closer, too.
• With the changes to sneak and mob AI that would allow a player to escape just but going into stealth, I think that the sneak stance should be changed so that it takes some time before you're actually hidden, e.g. I would need to wait five seconds (to "meld into the shadows" or whatever) after going into sneak before I am actually hidden. That way, if you're being chased/shot at by a mob, it would be harder to get away (the timer would reset every time you're kicked out of stealth).
• Mobs that have spotted a player, but lost track of them, should start patrolling around.
• Some other effects could be introduced that would make stealth more challenging:
  
  • Fire arrows: some archers could have flaming arrows that would momentarily ignite a player, giving substantial penalties to hide (and also doing some damage)
  • Some existing debuffs, like crippling shot, could also incur some penalties to stealth scores
  • Illuminate: some casters could have a new spell called "Illuminate", which would come in three flavors:
    
    • Illuminate Self: a self-buff that causes the caster's body to emit light. If you step into this light, you are almost guaranteed to be seen. Some casters would cast this upon spawning. Will also reveal invisible players.
    • Symbol of Illumination: Like other symbols, is activated when triggered by a player. Illuminates a single area. If you are caught in an illuminated area, you are almost guaranteed to be seen. Casters would cast this if they hear something, but they don't have to have aggro. Will also reveal invisible players.
    • Illuminate Enemy: Causes the player's body to emit light. It is almost impossible to stealth while debuffed like this. Short duration (twenty seconds or so), and would only be cast if the caster has aggro on you.

The point is, please don't make stealth easy.

Also, give bonuses for stealthing through a dungeon. Not just for not killing many mobs, but also for not being seen by any mobs (or at least, very few mobs).

[sjt_12]

The yellow eye and the red ear over the monster's head while sneaking is cool!

[Satyriasys]

Drow could cast Faerie Fire on us to keep us from hiding too.

[Hajutze]

Can someone test a sneak build without Hide in plain sight and with it and post the results - how much the feat helps and if it's needed in a sneaky build.

In short is lv17 ranger really needed for such a build.

[ahpook]

First off, Thanks No DIce! My first character back in 2006 was a sneaker and I still play him but his focus on sneak has been sacrificed to DPS over the years so any attention back to sneak is great.

Using a lever or any other object should not interrupt sneak or invisibility, it should warn the monster close to it that something odd is going on but breaking the sneak is terrible to a rogue, if you do this way maybe exploring while in sneak mode would be useful again for example the rogue go first in sneak mode then open a door pass the search check of the mobs then the group move to the door and after they pass the rogue is already closing the door so a fight is avoided, and the rogue praise ;P

I would agree. Instead of breaking stealth, make using a lever, rune, etc give a penalty to hide, move silently, spot, AC (others?) of twice the dungeon level. That should accomplish the same goals as popping the character out of sneak mode.

[floydpepper]

Thanks for the update, No Dice, I'm really looking forward to the changes.

However:

Using a lever or any other object should not interrupt sneak or invisibility, it should warn the monster close to it that something odd is going on but breaking the sneak is terrible to a rogue, if you do this way maybe exploring while in sneak mode would be useful again for example the rogue go first in sneak mode then open a door pass the search check of the mobs then the group move to the door and after they pass the rogue is already closing the door so a fight is avoided, and the rogue praise ;P

I agree with this; using a lever should not automatically break stealth. Maybe nearby mobs should get new spot/listen rolls with a bonus instead (after all they could hear something or see movement from the corner of their eyes). It would be awesome if it were possible to run Stealthy Repossession on a stealthy character...

[*]More caster mobs should have True Seeing, and, if they suspect an invisible player, will start casting it on themselves and other mobs. They do NOT have to aggro the player to start casting; if they think they hear something, they'll cast TS just to make it a bit harder for the player. TS should also give a bonus to spot.

Having enemy casters have cast True Seeing if they suspect hidden or invisible characters is a good idea by itself, but while I know that DDO is not D&D, and the ddowiki spell description of True Seeing doesn't say anything about spot bonuses, the spell description in the 3.5 Player's Handbook EXPLICITLY says: "True Seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding , or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means." (D&D 3.5 PHB p. 296, emphasis mine) The ability to discover hidden characters should mainly be the strength of mobs with high spot/listen skills, like rogues or rangers, and not of casters with no ranks in spot or listen.

By the way, I totally don't believe that suggesting a spot bonus coming with True Seeing was just a sneaky attempt to give player casters with a rogue splash an easy spot bonus.

I do agree that mobs patroling the area where they heard noise for a while would be a nice touch, although they should resume their normal activities after a while - like in the Thief pc game series.

[maitremechant]

.[*]Here are some other “monster vs stealth” behaviors we’re working on:

• We don’t want scorpions to burrow directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.
• We don’t want minotaurs to charge directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.

[/LIST]

Hey, Nice work... It seems to be a very good start to get the game better!

Also don't forget the insane SPIDER issue with their crazy listen and spot... I run Epic hard quests with 70 hide and move silently and they spot me as much as you would spot a storm giant dancing the french can can !

a bit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F7B2i02jrM

It definitely gets our attention...

Good day!

[Coyopa]

Hey, Nice work... It seems to be a very good start to get the game better!

Also don't forget the insane SPIDER issue with their crazy listen and spot... I run Epic hard quests with 70 hide and move silently and they spot me as much as you would spot a storm giant dancing the french can can !

a bit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F7B2i02jrM

It definitely gets our attention...

Good day!

My 25 rogue (well, currently level 7 with 8 banked on his third life) has a 90 hide and move silently and spiders always "spot" him - regardless of difficulty. If there is a spider around, you can forget stealth. Best you can do is get the spider's attention, lure it to a safe place, and dispatch it. During Imahidden's second life, I snuck around the King's Forest, but I always had to be alert for spiders amongst the drow. If there were any, I got their attention, then snuck behind the nearest tree or over the nearest rise where the drow wouldn't see me while I killed their pets.

[gwonbush]

My 25 rogue (well, currently level 7 with 8 banked on his third life) has a 90 hide and move silently and spiders always "spot" him - regardless of difficulty. If there is a spider around, you can forget stealth. Best you can do is get the spider's attention, lure it to a safe place, and dispatch it. During Imahidden's second life, I snuck around the King's Forest, but I always had to be alert for spiders amongst the drow. If there were any, I got their attention, then snuck behind the nearest tree or over the nearest rise where the drow wouldn't see me while I killed their pets.

According to PnP rules, the spiders are well in their rights to find you. You see, they have an ability called "Tremorsense". This means they know the location of anything moving (this includes taking any action) that is touching the ground within a certain radius of them. I don't know how this ability is implemented in DDO, but them being able to find you no matter your hide/move silently does make sense.

[rest]

This was one of my posts in this thread

I tend to agree with this, but I know when the "sight lines" were added in for finding a trap through search, plenty of people were up in arms about "immersion" and stuff like that. I was a little leary of it first, but it really really really made trapping easier for folks who haven't memorized every box.

Played a bit last night. I was trying to get my favor unlocks to re-unlock so I ran a quick quest: von3 pre-quest on HE. I used invis. I think the gigantic red question marks are rather obtrusive and completely out of line with the rest of the way ddo feels, visually. I'd urge you to rethink the way they look, or just get rid of them completely and try to design some other way to make it known the mobs hear you, but don't know where you area.

Never thought I'd be one of those "it totally breaks immersion" guys but here I am. When the trap sight lines were added, they weren't as jarring as these crazy question marks. It kind of reminds me of the exclamation points in Metal Gear Solid. In a bad way. Unless you add in the sound then maybe it could be almost ok.

[Coyopa]

According to PnP rules, the spiders are well in their rights to find you. You see, they have an ability called "Tremorsense". This means they know the location of anything moving (this includes taking any action) that is touching the ground within a certain radius of them. I don't know how this ability is implemented in DDO, but them being able to find you no matter your hide/move silently does make sense.

I was not complaining about them finding me. I understand they have tremorsense. I was basically just pointing out that it doesn't matter the difficulty or your hide/move silently skills, the spiders will find you.