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  1. #201
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Also, the fact that we sometimes need to use debuffs is a POSITIVE thing...

    That's much more involved play than just "push one button, mob dies".
    The fort saves on the Storm horns orcs are still excessive. This spills over into LOLz-land if you want stunning blow to work on a fighter without divine might. A minion's monk with a 78 stunning fist DC is still like 60/40 in there and that's kinda nuts.

    But it's one type of mobs in one chain so you can work around it.

  2. #202
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Also, the fact that we sometimes need to use debuffs is a POSITIVE thing...

    That's much more involved play than just "push one button, mob dies".
    Quite a few of my posts on this issue have agreed with this, which is why I favor content balance. Its not JUST debuffing, but knowing which mobs have what weaknesses, and attacking those weaknesses rather than just being completely dependant on a one trick pony short list of spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  3. #203
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Quite a few of my posts on this issue have agreed with this, which is why I favor content balance. Its not JUST debuffing, but knowing which mobs have what weaknesses, and attacking those weaknesses rather than just being completely dependant on a one trick pony short list of spells.
    Again . . . so what? Trial+error = win.

    beats the heck of of spamming magic missiles. I mean to each his own, I don't judges (unless you won't hjeal meh) but I find the shiradi play-style to be kinda ********, less fun than not playing DDO.

  4. #204

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    Dont worry the Pirate bards coming next update will balance it all out.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  5. #205
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    When it comes to DC casting a lot of people mix up the Difference between Spell Penetration and Difficulty Checks

    Both are important but both are independent.

    If a caster builds to maximize their DCs but neglects to build Spell Penetration, their effective DC does not diminish, however, there will be things the caster will not be able to touch with spells - In this case it would not matter if the DC is too low or High Enough.

    But on the other hand if a caster builds for Spell penetration at the expense of DCs, then even if the target does not have spell penetration the DC is still ineffective.

    Both Drow and Sun-Elf have the same base potential for Intelligence.

    Now for a first life at 28 and Multiple Life at 28 the differences between their Intelligence if both started at Max Int and Both took the same Enhancements and EDs/Twists would be found in Gear/Tome

    If able to use the Latest expansion both would have potential of a +10 Int item (+11 Int if both brave enough for EE) but at a minimum they would have a +9 Int item. Outside of those we could say that a +8 Int Item would be the Minimum at Level 28.

    Demon Web access give potential of +3 Insight vs +2 Insight possible from Greensteel and Random Loot. Greensteel and Random loot also has +1 Exceptional possible

    Rare Raid Item - Litany of the Dead +1 Profane bonus

    Tomes - 1750 Favor guarantees access to at least 1 +2 Tome. So at worst by level 28 a caster will be down +3 Int vs a +5 Int Tome

    These right here is a difference of 8 Int or 4 DC vs someone that has it all.

    But keep in mind that none of these is a difference between a First Life and Multiple life character a First life could obtain all of these items just the same as a multiple life (in fact some Multiple life characters obtained some of the rare items before TR was even an option)

    Past Life Options do offer additional DCs to specific schools
    Cleric up to 3 DC for Conjuration
    Sorcerer up to 3 DC for Evocation
    Bard - Active PL Feat for +1 Enchantment
    Wizard - Active PL Feat for +1 to All Schools

    So a first life compared to a multi-life would be as much as -4 DC behind on Conjuration, -4 DC behind on Evocation, -2 DC behind on Enchantment and -1 DC on all other schools

    So if we are talking about the difference between a first life and an optimized multi-lifer as it concerns Finger of Death we are only talking a factor of 5% effectiveness difference, when we take on the assumption that both have exactly the same gear/enhancements.

    But you also need to consider that a First Life Wizard not having the Wizard PL feat available to choose could simply choose any other SF: Feat to reduce the difference in a single school.
    ------------------------
    Now Spell Penetration is a different Story
    Here PL can grant you as much as +9 for Spell Penetration
    Race also plays a factor as Elves have Spell Penetration bonuses tied to the racial tree

    -------------------------
    I actually like the fact that Debuffs are needed in EE content, personally I find it a sad state that people see it as less efficient, to me that is because they are utilizing their spells with the goal of padding their kill count. Which means they are not utilizing the rest of the Party effectively.

  6. #206
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    Andoris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre landing most of your death spells in EE stormhorns with a 65 DC? SSOIDH. Make it a few of them.

    I bet you can CC those mobs, but landing necro fort save spells is quite different.
    I just started working on Epic TR's (3 done so far) with my wizard and I run EE Stormhorns every life so far while leveling. I typically try to hold off until lvl 26 before I head up there, which puts my Necro DC at 65 and Enchant at 60. My holds are fine, insta-kills are a bit dicey but as long as you are using your debuffs correctly (enveration, necrotic ray, crushing despair, etc) and you are not trying to FOD orc's blackguard, and giants you do fine.

    Of course if you go after the insanely high fort mobs and your not using your debuffs your will see failures all over the place.

  7. #207
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    I know this may come as a shock to some people, but I play a DC caster because I enjoy that style of play over other less enjoyable builds (*cough*iradi*cough*). I firmly believe that I should be rewarded for the years of effort it took to achieve the absolute maximum DCs. I should be able to dominate the majority of content. You don't like that I can do that and you can't? Spend the years to make your own, or better yet just don't run with me in your groups if it bothers you that much that things are dying too fast. If you put in the effort you should be rewarded, and I think DC casters are well balanced in that. Even a brand new first life DC caster can be useful in a quest, but not dominate it alone while a completionist with the best of every gear slot can. What is so wrong about that? I think that is a hell of a lot more right than a first life shiradi that can dominate EE content alone.

  8. #208
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    Since all of this again boils down to kill count let's take a look at this.....

    First, DC casters still dominate kill counts to a ridiculous level on EN and EH. Wail is broken? Wail is nerfed? Stop! Wail is more powerful than ever before since it now follows you a caster can take out an entire room that no other class has a chance to kill so fast except for EiN. Circle of Death? There is another 3 or 4 dead in a snap. Then you can go around dropping FoD and PKs and 1000 pt plus dmg necro rays for 10 sps when you are bored. Combine that with virtually every Drow, who once were thought squishy, PM running around with 800 plus hps, displacement, continual self healing and 200% fortification which makes you nigh unkillable except to stacks of divine punishment and you have a god mode class. So what is OP asking for, that this be transferred to EE? Then why would anyone play anything but PMs?

    I have a PM that I run in EE all the time and I never fell useless. Is it hard? Yes, as it is supposed to be. I never feel like I am not contributing. Do I lead the kill count? No. Which again is what this is all really about. Usually kill counts are nice and even across the board in EE which strikes me as great balance. I have no where near the DCs listed here and that seems proof you can be successful in EE without a 70 DC or whatever. You have to play tactically, you have to play with a team and you have to use spells like necro ray, enervation, energy drain and mind fog. You can create kill zones and effectively deal with EE mobs. Using only the mass produced twilight you can cast effective dancing balls, not all the mobs will fail but some will. Wizards have the ability to easily take extend and can provide a wealth of bonus buffs to a party as well.

    Now I will grant that PMs have a hard time with red names. But again, I don't think one class should be good at everything. You can still do effective damage with a necro ray, polar ray, dot electric dot cold repeat sequence throwing iin disintegration and frost lance if you are so inclined. That's not much against 200k hps but it adds up. I would like energy drain to have at least a chance of effecting red names.

    As has been stated some of the L28 mobs could have their saves tweaked a bit but if EE starts to resemble the rest of the game where mobs die by the second then this will make the game boring for everyone not playing a PM. Maybe the solution is to simply take away the kill count?

    Of greater issue here in my view is spell penetration. Too much is needed. Yes, I can break any spell pen of anything but I have +9 from past lives and 3 feats devoted to spell penetration. This seems like a huge investment needed jus to get your spells to work and in that sense it isn't fair to DC casters when a shiradi first lifer can hit any button that says missile and be successful right away. That should be addressed right away -the easiest way making missiles subject to spell pen.

  9. #209
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Again . . . so what? Trial+error = win.

    beats the heck of of spamming magic missiles. I mean to each his own, I don't judges (unless you won't hjeal meh) but I find the shiradi play-style to be kinda ********, less fun than not playing DDO.
    bad troll... back under your bridge with no Halfling sacrifices for you tonight... love not the shiradi.... but speak ill not of the shiradi either.... least 16/2/2 shiradis not take cure light as an fvs spell just to max/emp it to hjeal you... you have been warned
    Last edited by Xaxx; 03-04-2014 at 10:47 PM.

  10. #210
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    Thumbs up Read By a dev

    I'm about to post a thread about monster stats that includes this subject. Thanks for all the info so far! The numbers and build examples in here are especially helpful! Please check out the official thread and and feel free to weigh in there too.

  11. #211
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    I'm about to post a thread about monster stats that includes this subject. Thanks for all the info so far! The numbers and build examples in here are especially helpful! Please check out the official thread and and feel free to weigh in there too.
    Is this the kind of post that will make me want to punch a baby?

    Scratch that . . . I always want to punch a baby, they remind me too much of halflings.

    So . . . is this gonna be the kind of post that would make a well-adjusted mammal with a soul want to punch a baby?

  12. #212
    Community Member Janisis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanegrin View Post
    ^^

    With my PM currently sitting at a 65 DC I'm still not seeing much of a problem. The problem seems to be that you want a 85%+ success rate. It seems to me about hitting the cooldowns correctly and using quicken (yes SP management is a pain, sunelf helps with 5 sp clickies). Circle of death, jump in with wail, then starting using FOD etc. Enervate SLA, energy drain.

    You should also be holding monsters, webbing them, and dancing things with Irresistible dance, this makes you very useful (contributing indirectly to the kill count) by itself. Looks like you could use some enchantment focuses, and a bard past life feat perhaps.

    If you come on a group of 8 mobs and manage to kill 4 and hold the 4 others your pretty darn effective.

    You have more necro dcs then me but I'm generally in top 3 if not number 1 for kills in EE, not only that but with most things CC'd along the way PM is a very effective member of the team even if it isn't number one in kills.

    If you really want that 100% effective rate in (current) EE content, perhaps get to the 68 dc andoris has (guide in his signature), then look forward to the upcoming gear. New armor for +1 profane DC bonus. New caster stick up to +7 necro dcs for a 2 hander.

    Wow, gratz on an awesome necro job! This thread started last August and today was seen and responded to by a GM. I am impressed sir (literally no sarcasm)!

    /salute

    Also I agree on your feedback to the original OP. I see palemasters in EE all the time who are super effective with necro and enchant DCs. Sadly this game has a huge dichotomy. EE is frustrating and annoying to some players and dumb easy to others. Past lives, Gear, play style and builds create a huge engulfing gap between the two sides. Personally I would like to see EEs ramped up more (make them much more difficult) and give them non-unique incentives that make it worth the blood and grit. I am really glad they are getting rid of non-upgradeable loot versions connected to difficulty (I would have loved the implement if people could, without spending cash, upgrade their item from EN to EH to EE). Currently the slight increase in COV and EXP would not make much more difficult EEs worth it imho.

    I really do miss actual difficult content versus hp inflation why am I more bored content.
    Official Wearer of Purple Proud Member of Renowned Not Afraid to PUG
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  13. #213
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    Devs I think you tried to make ee content encourage partying but infact ee discourages grouping as its so difficult only fury monkchers and 1st life shiradi bf sorcs,fvs solo ee with ease often invisy zerging to the end. Before the open the final chest they bless it and then their 5 alts enter and that 1 person loots the end chests 6 times. Then they sell their loot on the asah so they never need to pay any money to turbine. Meanwhile your ee content is hardly run by 95% of your player and you and they are being exploited. Making ee so hard was a fan service to your most loyal but I think it was a bad mistake and it makes me want to leave the game because I don't want to be forced to play fotm builds to survive ee.

  14. #214
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Is this the kind of post that will make me want to punch a baby?

    Scratch that . . . I always want to punch a baby, they remind me too much of halflings.

    So . . . is this gonna be the kind of post that would make a well-adjusted mammal with a soul want to punch a baby?
    I thought your kind ate babies? And halflings?

  15. #215
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I thought your kind ate babies? And halflings?
    I created my Halfling on Thelanis because it didn't want to be in the same server as Teh_Troll.

  16. #216
    Community Member zyp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I actually like the fact that Debuffs are needed in EE content, personally I find it a sad state that people see it as less efficient, to me that is because they are utilizing their spells with the goal of padding their kill count. Which means they are not utilizing the rest of the Party effectively.
    I feel your pain, OP, but this comment from Enoach reminded me of several EEs I've run recently where the smoking, red-eyed, finger-pointers with that constant green-and-red-sucking sound coming from them were grinning from eye-socket to eye-socket. I think it was because some of us were using level-draining weapons/attacks and maybe some spell-pen lowering attacks/abilities. I like to solo a lot so I've mostly put my DC caster on the shelf for EEs but when I do run him, it seems he does comfortably well as long as he's in a party that helps with the level drain. I just have to keep an eye out for those Woo-wooo sounds and target the already-drained trash and he doesn't waste a lot of SP on saves. I can't solo EEs with him anymore, though, without a lot of patience and pots.
    Short Fat Bald Guys of Khyber: Zyp, Klod, and a bunch of mules...

  17. #217
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I thought your kind ate babies? And halflings?
    Meat is better when tendorized.

  18. #218
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    This is why I haven't logged in since October and let my annual ViP sub tick out - no matter how many PLs you stack or gear you attain, a first life, utterly boring, alternate spec is more effective because any sense of character balance was thrown out a long time ago.

    You can't have a game like this with half your focus on character generation without maintaining some sort of balance (ie. master's blitz compared to the other 5-6 joke ultimates such as the shadowdancer one that have gone untouched in nearly 2 years).

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entarus View Post
    I know this may come as a shock to some people, but I play a DC caster because I enjoy that style of play over other less enjoyable builds (*cough*iradi*cough*). I firmly believe that I should be rewarded for the years of effort it took to achieve the absolute maximum DCs. I should be able to dominate the majority of content. You don't like that I can do that and you can't? Spend the years to make your own, or better yet just don't run with me in your groups if it bothers you that much that things are dying too fast. If you put in the effort you should be rewarded, and I think DC casters are well balanced in that. Even a brand new first life DC caster can be useful in a quest, but not dominate it alone while a completionist with the best of every gear slot can. What is so wrong about that? I think that is a hell of a lot more right than a first life shiradi that can dominate EE content alone.
    I play a shiradi. I enjoy that play style, I'm pretty good at it. A good DC caster can own me in kill count, and I'm ok with that. I'll find other ways to contribute like taking the alpha-strike agro, dps on bosses or killing the last few mobs between the out of blue DC caster and the shrine.

    Shiradi doesn't guarantee you dominate EE content, and past lives can make you much more survivable. Your fragile ego can rest secure that even with Shiradi, past lives can improve it. There do however need to be end game builds that don't take two years preparation to play. Maybe not the top builds, but new players need something other than a see-you-in-two-years system. I think what they have is a nice balance.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshei View Post
    And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
    NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

    No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.
    Maybe you need to get out and play more and not let the forum doom sayers cloud what you see. I have seen EE quests dominated by light based divines, pure sorcs, instakills, archers, assassins, druid casters, xbow builds, blitzers and many other builds. Inside the game, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds in the forums.

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