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  1. #1

    Default Epic XP, Commendations the Full story

    I was asked by a couple of friends to post the numbers that I had for the commendations, XP, times for all for all of the EH and EE quests. And a couple of people didn't believe that doing all quests once on Hard and Elite would get you enough commendations to ETR.

    So I decided to kill two birds with one stone. Do an ETR life doing everything one and done on Hard and Elite, pug it the whole way to reduce accusations of uber-zerging-okay-for-you-and-your-cronies-but-what-about-us type of replies, and then publish the results. Turbine were kind enough to throw in a 30% XP Event and up the VIP Bonus from 10% to 15% just to mess with my numbers So I decided to just publish the spreadsheet that I use to crunch the numbers and just make it available to anyone who's interested.

    You can view it, or download and edit it here

    This lets you replicate the XP report under any circumstances, every variable is reflected there so you can tweak it for yourself depending on whether you're a VIP, have pots running, have a learning tome, have a streak, first time bonus etc. You can also factor in things like over-level penalties and repetition penalties if you want to. It's part of what I used to work out a levelling plan that suited me for clocking up my heroic lives - my version just has more automation for calculating some of the bonusses and penalties based on which quests and difficulties you have in the list. But the format and the XP calculations are exactly the same.

    The numbers that I've gone with have the VIP bonus set back to 10%, no pots, no first-time bonus, no event bonus. I've assumed no deaths on any Hard run and at least one death on an Elite run just for simplicity. Optional XP is calculated separately and added together at the end. There are a couple of places where I was in a rush and just entered the total optional XP at the end of the quest rather than breaking it down, these are coloured separately and could be broken down easily enough if it mattered.

    Conclusions are pretty simple:
    1. Doing everything one and done on Hard and Elite will get your character to cap with enough commendations to ETR
    2. Doing everything one and done on Hard and Elite takes a stupid amount of time and is incredibly tedious
    3. Any system based on the premise that you do everything one and done on Hard and Elite is inherently flawed
    4. Raids give the worst yield for commendations, so in it's current format, Epic TRing is another nail in the raiding coffin
    5. ADQ and Zawabi's are totally borked for commendations and the commendations for VON6 are stupidly low considering you have to go through VON5 to get them

    As to what the magic number should be? If Turbine want us to buy every 2nd heart from the Store, then 4200 is probably right. If Turbine want us to quest for 4 weeks to earn the commendations to buy a heart, then 4200 is probably right. If the expectation is that you have done your homework and can devise an optimum daily run that allows you to earn your hearts by doing 4 hours of dedicated zerging every day for 4 days with a pot running to be able to ETR, then 4200 is probably right. If none of these meet the design brief, then 4200 is too high.

    Now I've done my homework, I'm comfortable an ETR every 4 days is doable, time permitting, and with concerted effort. People who have already thrown hundreds of dollars into buying hearts and XP boxes, I can only thank you for helping to fund the game I enjoy so much. I'll obviously treat you with the same disdain as stoners who buy their past lives because they're not able to play them, but I'll still thank you

  2. #2
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I guess that with running only EE tracker's trap daily, I will get comms for heart sooner than I will get necro orb, so I'm not worried about comms at all.
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  3. #3
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    Personaly, for me the whole ETR system is not my thing. I have been playing ~2 years and only ever done 2 heroic TRs and I only have 1 toon over 20 on his second heroic life..

    I see myself doing HTR instead of ETR, it's the reason I got the challenge pack in the first place. Grinding out a heart with challenges is nothing compared to the grind of 4200 comms

    Given the choice between 2 hamster wheels, I pick the smaller wheel.
    Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
    Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
    Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic

  4. #4
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Thanks for your feedback.

  5. #5
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    I'd say that it's not really "once and done" if you're doing each quest twice

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Thanks for your feedback.
    Thx Varg for reading and your reply. Nice to see you guys chime in from time to time on our feedback.
    Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
    Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
    Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic

  7. #7
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    Becase of the current lack of epic quests, and the lack of purpose for epic leveling (no endgame, little rewards, not so epic epic feats which feel even weaker than normal feats), there really is no incentive for me to grind epic levels. Grinding CoV feels even less fulfilling on top of that. I play a lot and I haven't even leveled a character to 28. I usually stop at around 25-26 due to boredom.

    The grind rate of CoV didn't help in giving Epic leveling or TR'ing more appeal! It's nice that we have a new Epic TR system, but the way CoV's are, i don't think most players are able to enjoy or even willing to experience this new feature.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    Becase of the current lack of epic quests, and the lack of purpose for epic leveling (no endgame, little rewards, not so epic epic feats which feel even weaker than normal feats), there really is no incentive for me to grind epic levels. Grinding CoV feels even less fulfilling on top of that. I play a lot and I haven't even leveled a character to 28. I usually stop at around 25-26 due to boredom.

    The grind rate of CoV didn't help in giving Epic leveling or TR'ing more appeal! It's nice that we have a new Epic TR system, but the way CoV's are, i don't think most players are able to enjoy or even willing to experience this new feature.
    I am hoping that 12-18 months down the road we will have something to motivate us to consider doing an ETR, but in it's current state, this part of the game isn't even on my radar as something I would want to do. I will keep an eye on it as the new raids and content come into effect, but for now I still have lots to do just with getting to a third Heroic life on one of my 2 toons.
    Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
    Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
    Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk3l3t0r View Post
    I am hoping that 12-18 months down the road we will have something to motivate us to consider doing an ETR, but in it's current state, this part of the game isn't even on my radar as something I would want to do. I will keep an eye on it as the new raids and content come into effect, but for now I still have lots to do just with getting to a third Heroic life on one of my 2 toons.
    Im looking forward to the 2 new raids they have lined up for the 1st update of 2014! Hopefully it will be 2~ months and not 12-18 months lol. When the announcement of ETR came out, i did check it out and the thought of ETR'ing did cross my mind. I thought about what build i wouldn't mind grinding it with.. But then the drop rate revealed itself.. and the rest is history

  10. #10
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    looks like the solution is running EEs...

  11. #11
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    Really good post and good work. It really shows the big problem with the state of comms.

    I keep saying it in these threads, but I think the best solution is to make comms attainable only at level 28 and separate them from the leveling process entirely, just as the process for earning heroic hearts is separated from heroic leveling entirely. It is a proven system that is fair and players are happy with.

    The system as it exists now essentially forces players to take their focus off of gaining XP and on gaining comms, and XP has always been the focus traditionally. Players always will want to gain XP and advance in level first and foremost, they don't want to intentionally delay it. I don't think the mindset for players can be changed. You just end up with frustrated players as we have now.

    With the system as it is now, I just don't see a way for it to balance. If you put it lower it won't encourage running a wide variety of content as the devs intend, and if you keep it at 4200 it is too hard to get an epic heart and you have the situation we have now.

  12. #12
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    I'd say that it's not really "once and done" if you're doing each quest twice
    Yep the original assumption was doing in once...not twice...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    Im looking forward to the 2 new raids they have lined up for the 1st update of 2014! Hopefully it will be 2~ months and not 12-18 months lol. When the announcement of ETR came out, i did check it out and the thought of ETR'ing did cross my mind. I thought about what build i wouldn't mind grinding it with.. But then the drop rate revealed itself.. and the rest is history
    apologies, i realise the raids will be sooner based on recent communication from Turbine, I should have stated more quests and content in that timeframe would make me conisder an ETR.

    For now I am keeping 1 toon at ~level 26 for raiding and stuff, the other is on a second life at ~level 10. I might TR him a third time in the new year around Feb - March, that's when I expect he will be back at level 20.
    Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
    Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
    Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic

  14. #14
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Thanks for doing all that legwork. I have built these kinds of sheets and know how much effort they take to get setup right.

    Now the topic should become less of 'it takes too long' to, is doing every epic quest on eh and ee the right path to etr?

    Clearly people don't want that, however, in a epic path sense, it does seem proper to play them all at least once. Doing them all on EE once should get you fairly far along on coms; and numerically speaking it does. However, it probably is what people would consider not enough. So perhaps EE's should give 5-10 more coms per quest. This would mean you do a sweep of every ee quest, then go back and do some ehard to get the heart.

    However, I know doing that would skew people to run easy ee's for the min/max method of getting coms. Which brings us back to the balance we currently see. Hard enough to drive you to buy, but not soo impossible that you can't get your etr in a reasonable amount of time.

  15. #15
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miow View Post
    Yep the original assumption was doing in once...not twice...
    And that assumption was by the players.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    And that assumption was by the players.
    It was implicitly sold to us by Turbine that way.

  17. #17
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    ...People who have already thrown hundreds of dollars into buying hearts and XP boxes, I can only thank you for helping to fund the game I enjoy so much. I'll obviously treat you with the same disdain as stoners who buy their past lives because they're not able to play them, but I'll still thank you
    B-b-b-bonus trolling!

  18. #18
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
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    So far I haven't been too passionate about this subject, and still am not as I have plenty to do heroic tring my main and leveling my alts, but there does seem to me to be a clear argument in what is posted here about what the path forward might be. I see the following points as having relevance, and which can perhaps guide the devs forward-

    1) As demonstrated by EllisDee37, the proper amount of comms can be earned through running each epic quest on EH three times, and as Deadlock has demonstrated that running each quest on ee once and eh once can get a similar result, so the original logic of the devs, apart from the sentiment of the ddo community, is fundamentally sound.
    2) As Vargouille has stated, it is fundamentally sound logic that giving high comm rewards for high xp quests is not an inherently desirable goal, and that the best system should reward doing a variety of quests and not simply grinding a few high value quests; IMO, grinding eVoN for an easy, free TR is a sucky system, esp given as this is an option to make this feature free once should have to put a bit more work in.

    Nonetheless, the following counterpoints also seem indisputable in what I have read.

    1) The 4200 number is universally hated by the community, even by Deadlock, who has thankfully done this most recent analysis, and EllisDee37 has pointed out that given the player climate he personally has still concluded that the number should be lowered despite the logic holding up.
    2) For most people, running every eh quest three times or every ee quest once and every eh quest once, is not an inherently desirable goal either, especially since we may at times want to pick end rewards other than valor, which causes us to be screwed over by the new system.
    3) The current system doesn't necessarily solve the problem anyway, as certain characters are grinding certain high comm quests daily, which is contrary to the purpose anyway, which is also not necessarily an inherently desirable goal.

    As such, if I were a dev, I would conclude the following, based not simply on the theory, which may be sound in a vacuum or short-term tests on lamma, but in the live world of real players that don't seem to like this system-

    1) Cut the comms required to 2800 for a free epic or iconic heart. This is 2/3 of the original requirement, and gives some weight to both the devs' initial calculations and to player sentiment. It also creates a path to ETR through running all quests on ee once, which should in itself grant the ETR given the challenge inherent in this undertaking.
    2) Add comms back into saga end rewards. This was a fallacious approach when it was the only way to ETR, but when it is an additional option it rewards exactly what the devs want to reward, namely, running a variety of quests.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery Correlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miow View Post
    Yep the original assumption was doing in once...not twice...
    Even running on EE with BB once per life earns approx 2800 covs, i know, I've done it and had shed loads of xp to spare. I stopped taking 10% pots after the first one ran out after 6 hours. If I want to do another ITR, i'll either have to run through the whole content on hard, or just farm specific quests for max CoV's per time inviested. Which pretty much puts the whole 'we want you run different content' pretext into perspective. As an average player, I don't want to spend anymore time on a life than absolutely necessary, I'd like quite a few of the iconic pastlife's and epic past life's on my main character, the quickest way for me to do this is buy one get one free. Which is in my opinion what turbine wants.

    As a side note, my 15 other toons won't probably get a look in, which means i won't be buying xp pots, sp pots, so i'll save quite alot of cash there, so, i don't know wether to curse turbine, for what feels like forcing me to play one character, or thank them for saving me money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Very soon.............ish.™

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    It was implicitly sold to us by Turbine that way.
    Not quite. They said "leveling from 20-cap entirely on EHard should net you a heart, sooner if on EElite." For many of us, the Babel fish seemed to translate that as "running everything once on EHard will both cap you and net enough CoVs to get a heart." The two are not the same, but it's what we wanted it to mean so it's how we heard it.

    Thanks 'Lock for the detailed info!

    Varg, if you're still watching this thread, any chance y'all would share your math that led to the "leveling entirely on EHard should net you a heart..." that so many of us are having trouble replicating?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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