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  1. #1
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    Default What do you consider P2W?

    In my opinion P2W is the ability to buy measureable power in the DDO store that can either be only be sourced there, or very rarely could be found outside of the store...for example if you could buy a shard of Sword of Shadows.

    That being said the biggest source of P2W available in the stores is +2 ability pots and +X tomes.

    Heroic and Epic Past Lives come nowhere even close to what tomes give you, yet I hear people crying about people using Otto's boxes to get a past life, yet they have bought a +5 tome or 2 from the store and you don't hear them whining about that. Why? Because these items are out of reach of a lot of the player bases budget. It is natural for an entitled society to hate on those that have money to burn. Many of us trade for them from the deeper pockets playerbase. Personally, I think Turbine has gone way over the top with the money grab, but the Heroic version of the Otto's box was a brilliant idea. If only they made the epic version closer to the same value that the heroic version does (i.e. include choice of an epic or iconic heart).

    Agree with skipping content or not, next time you flame Turbine or another player for using an Otto's box, yet you purchased a tome from the store...shame on you.

    Don't be a hater.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Tomes in store.
    Nothing else, boxes are more like Pay to NOT Play.

    Shahang (hjealme), Wipekin (kotc), Nezhat (barbie) Ghallanda/Devourer

  3. #3
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Lawyers
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  4. #4
    Community Member Ailaesaedol's Avatar
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    Actual raid loot. Being able to buy a Torc or similar from the store would be P2W in my eyes. I never truly considered tomes to be raid loot, but there was a huge kerfuffle when +3s were first added that was just funny to watch.

    Paid classes/races (or earned via unlock or with TPs) I dont consider P2W. Bladeforged, monk, arti, helf, whatever. They're nifty, but I dont ever feel like I've won when I've built a strong character involving one of those things. I only ever feel like I've won anything when I complete a gear set before the next "best in slot" item comes along (which almost never happens).

  5. #5
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    Hi,

    My vote would be for res cakes.

    I'm ashamed to say I've used them a few times, usually when dying near the end of a long quest and being too cranky to start again.

    Thanks.

  6. #6
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Anything that makes you spend less time ingame than you would normally. This is pretty much everything that is sold in the store except for quest packs, classes, destinies, and cosmetic items. These items all require you to play more or the same amount of time (through gathering experience or actually playing new quests).
    Last edited by Forzah; 01-18-2014 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Monk

  8. #8
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Tomes in store.
    Nothing else, boxes are more like Pay to NOT Play.
    Well, buying tomes is pay-to-not-farm-high-level-chests, so I don't see a big difference there.

  9. #9
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    To me, Pay to Win is stuff that must be bought for real cash. If free players could only get to level 10, but you could "unlock" levels 11-20 buy paying for it with real dollars, that would be pay to win. If casters could use level 1-5 spells, but had to pay real dollars to unlock every spell level above 5, that would be pay to win. If the only weapons you find in the game were +1 with no other enhancements, but you could buy that +5 Ghostbane Khopesh of Greater Ghostbane in the store for real dollars, that would be pay to win. Et cetera...

    And all that would have to only available for real dollars, not with accumulated TP that a player can get for free simply by playing.

    In other words, if you could only get to the higher levels and/or only get the gear/spells/skills you need to effectively play higher levels by paying real dollars, that is pay to win.


    I think DDO is big on "pay for convenience" but there is no "pay to win". Everything in the game can either be gained through play or can be purchased with TP that you gain through play.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade (Epic Triple Completionist), Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jarladdin Nalfesne, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield (Heroic Triple Completionist, Epic Completionist.)

    Leader of Guinness Knights (Level 164), which is (since June 2021) a two-man, father-son guild.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  10. #10
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    What I know as common definition and the definition I like to use is whenever paying money will give you in-game power beyond what can be acquired through time and/or playing the game. So, where someone who spends money will get a better/greater result than those who instead wait or play longer (thus the result you get from spending money "wins" in direct comparison to that of those who wait and/or play).

    Any time I can choose to either spend money or wait long, or where I get to choose between grinding longer or spending money to bypass some grind I like to think of it as being given a choice.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

    No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Whitehairguy's Avatar
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    In spite of what some people on these forums will try to force feed me, nothing in this game is p2w.
    Pay to not play maybe, but that isn't exactly winning.

  12. #12
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Promoting +5 tomes in the store while secretly removing them from standard loot tables and placing them in EE Stormhorns loot only while never responding at all to a single thread asking about the situation is what I personally consider "p2w" and it's also a sleazy thing to do without notification as well.

    Any item in the store that is a strictly better version of an in game item. Enhanced Heal scrolls which heal for more than standard heal scrolls and Enhanced Cure Critical pots fall into this category. Ship portal beacons that exist in the store to the exclusion of the option being added to plat bought teleport scrolls fits here as well.

    Neither of these two situations are anything that I find unbalancing to the game though I completely disagree with both and feel the game would be better overall if they hadn't happened. In the first case, communicating the issue would have helped and in the second providing a similar plat alternative from an in store vendor would have been nice. For me, p2w doesn't have to mean you only "win" if you spend money. It's just a term I use for sacrificing in game functionality simply because of the existence of a store bought alternative. The game suffers as a whole (even if it's minor) for the benefit of sales.

    We will never see an in game method to instantly teleport to the guild ship because it would hurt store sales even if that functionality would be a great addition to the game. It's why we have astral shard teleports and an absence of heroic rogue hirelings for plat. It's the reason that barbarians have poor self healing options unless you want to pay per heal in the form of store enhanced pots and dot pots. Barbarian self healing functionality is suffering because of the need to monetize healing which should be a basic in game function. If sovereign healing elixirs were available for plat in game instead of store exclusive, we would see a very different game. No the trade in pots don't count as they only last as long as your collectible stash and have reduced functionality anyway.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 01-18-2014 at 08:14 AM.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  13. #13
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    I would not see DDO as pure p2w at the moment. P2w would mean to be able to buy the best available in the store and that defintively is not the case. I could go to the AH and pay some of the good stuff for real money there, but Turbine officially is only gaining on the AH fee there. So this is not ecaxtly p2w. Same goes or the shop that offers a lot of convenience items like XP pots. I do have less grind if I chuck them. But else?

    Monk is not p2w either - I still have to make a good build out of the class. It´s easier to build one with monk but it is not exactly the only available method.

    Bypass timers? Well, a commodity, not anything essential. XP stones? Do not make a toon more survivabl in higher levle content.

    Nothing is real p2w yet. Most is p2bypass or p2less-grind or such things.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Well, buying tomes is pay-to-not-farm-high-level-chests, so I don't see a big difference there.
    The difference isn't in the absolute, but in the degree. Note that they also decreased the likelihood of achieving these outside of EE new content, when before they dropped when content met specific ML loot, including loot boosts bought from the store. The technicality of being able to get it in game as an absolute doesn't make it not p2w for me, because when the sales were decreasing due to ability to get in game, they simply decreased the ability to get it in game, significantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    I would not see DDO as pure p2w at the moment. P2w would mean to be able to buy the best available in the store and that defintively is not the case. I could go to the AH and pay some of the good stuff for real money there, but Turbine officially is only gaining on the AH fee there. So this is not ecaxtly p2w. Same goes or the shop that offers a lot of convenience items like XP pots. I do have less grind if I chuck them. But else?

    Monk is not p2w either - I still have to make a good build out of the class. It´s easier to build one with monk but it is not exactly the only available method.

    Bypass timers? Well, a commodity, not anything essential. XP stones? Do not make a toon more survivabl in higher levle content.

    Nothing is real p2w yet. Most is p2bypass or p2less-grind or such things.
    However, the best available is in the store, as the best character power increases come from leveling, which can be bought straight cash. It has been proven that gear in this game can be invalidated in an instant with one update, but power increases gained through TRing and eTRing are there for the life of the character.

    Melee/ranged builds in this game are optimal with monk levels, and viable without monk levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  16. #16
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    However, the best available is in the store, as the best character power increases come from leveling, which can be bought straight cash. It has been proven that gear in this game can be invalidated in an instant with one update, but power increases gained through TRing and eTRing are there for the life of the character.

    Melee/ranged builds in this game are optimal with monk levels, and viable without monk levels.
    Chai, we still might grind-level to completionist, it is possible. So therefore this is p2not-grind. There is a subtle difference between it and p2w, you know.

    Melee/ranged builds might only get optimum results with monk splashes, OK. But for most caster builds the monk does not add anything at all. Therefore, it is only one way to make optimum or even overpowered builds and therefore cannot be considered p2w.

    And compare the Druid and Arty to the rest of the field, they are both far from OP in any means and usually have to be paid for as well.

  17. #17
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    The drop rates on +5 tomes are so low and only drop in certain quests (p2p) that most can argue they are p2w. No other source of stat boosting can make builds like monkchers or hybrid melees possible, or even dc casters viable in end-game wihout tomes. The difference of making a hybrid melee and investing 12 pts vs 17 pts in DEX, to me makes this much more significant than any PL or item available in game. When +4s were introduced, before they came to the DDO, some of us spent years trying to get them and if we got lucky, getting the one for our build was a nightmare. Now the drop rates were further reduced an to date the only +5 tomes I have even see are upgrades.

  18. #18
    Community Member Ailaesaedol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    When +4s were introduced, before they came to the DDO, some of us spent years trying to get them and if we got lucky, getting the one for our build was a nightmare.
    The "years" you spent trying to get a +4 instead of spending that time grinding past lives was you own choice. Back then, eating a +4 meant you weren't going to TR as you would have lost its benefit. And if the difference between a +3 and +5 makes or breaks your build, then you're playing the game wrong.

  19. #19
    Community Member LordTw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    We will never see an in game method to instantly teleport to the guild ship because it would hurt store sales even if that functionality would be a great addition to the game.

    Bind to the Bogwater Tavern in House P then /death whenever you need to get to your Ship. It's like 10 feet away and your gonna rebuff when you're there anyways.
    LordTw
    Altoholics Anonymous

  20. #20
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