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  1. #1
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Shiradi Warcannon (11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog) Shuriken build

    Putting this up for discussion. Basically this is inspired by the good self-healing and great casting ability of the Dread Ninja build but with Haste Boost, higher DEX and BAB from permanent Tenser's Transformation and Shadow Dodge for DPS and with Warforged immunities.

    Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rogue Shuriken Build

    - Warforged Immunities (Hold Person, Level Drain, Flesh to Stone, Poison, Disease, Paralyze, Exhaustion,...)
    - High Fortification (overcompensating the loss from Shadow Dodge)
    - great Self-Healing via Quickened Reconstruct Spell - drop Cocoon and get a free Twist Slot!
    - Permanent Tenser's Transformation from Eldritch Knight (+4 STR, DEX, CON) and Shadow Dodge (+3 DEX, +3% Dodge) from Thief Acrobat
    - Casterlevel 11 Extended Buffs and spells (True Seeing, GH, Blur, Displacement, Rage, Haste, Jump,...), DDoor, Teleport,...
    - Improved Shield and Improved Mage Armor SLA's
    - UMD/Rogue Skills depending on skill point distribution
    - Shuriken Expertise, Ninja Training II, 10k stars
    - Shadow Veil
    - Haste Boost
    - 2d4 Elemental damage from Spellsword toggle
    - Extra stacking 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage and +1 Reflex Save only obtainable from Thunderforged Shadowscale Docent (or Light Armor)
    - Shiradi ED for maximum effectiveness



    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Shiradi Warcannon
    Level 28 Lawful Good Warforged Male
    (6 Monk \ 3 Rogue \ 11 Wizard \ 8 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 286
    Spell Points: 690 
    BAB: 11\11\16\21
    Fortitude: 12
    Reflex: 27
    Will: 18
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
    Strength              8                    13
    Dexterity            18                    36
    Constitution         10                    16
    Intelligence         12                    16
    Wisdom               16                    21
    Charisma              6                    10
    
    Tomes Used
    +5 Tome of Strength used at level 1
    +5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
    +5 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
    +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
    +5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Shuriken Expertise
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision
    Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
    
    
    Level 5 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 6 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot
    
    
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 9 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 10 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 11 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 12 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars
    
    
    Level 13 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Wizard)
    
    
    Level 17 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
    
    
    Level 18 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 21 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 22 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 23 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 24 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical or Deflect Arrows
    
    
    Level 25 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 26 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Guardian Angel
    
    
    Level 27 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Reflexes or Blinding Speed 
    
    
    Level 28 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Doubleshot
    Enhancement: Warforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Warforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Eldritch Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Spellsword: Shock (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Toughness (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Toughness (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Toughness (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Battlemage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Battlemage (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Battlemage (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Shield (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Shield (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Improved Shield (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Arcane Barrier (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Arcane Barrier (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Arcane Barrier (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Elemental Resistance (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Elemental Resistance (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Elemental Resistance (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Tenser's Transformation (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Stealthy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sting of the Ninja (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Control (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Stick Fighting (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Charming (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Charming (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Faster Sneaking (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Faster Sneaking (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Faster Sneaking (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Shadow Dodge (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Shadow Dodge (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Shadow Dodge (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Arbalester (Rank 1)
    Customization:
    - If you start with only 14 WIS you have 6 stat points to distribute between CON and INT so you could also go 8, 18, 14, 14, 14, 6 (remember you need 16 INT to cast Level 6 spells!).
    - If you invest 1 AP in the Archmage tree you get Invisibility as SLA, If you invest 1 AP into the Mechanic tree you get extended SA range
    - Instead of Greater DEX at lvl 24 you can also take Deflect Arrows for a more defensive variant.
    - If you have Epic Completionist you can twist Dragonhide and Impregnable Mind and exchange Blinding Speed vs. Epic Reflexes for all saves with no fail on rolling 1.
    - If spellpoints are still too few you can take Improved Mental Toughness at level 18 instead of Grandmaster Stance and even Epic Mental Toughness at level 24 instead of Greater DEX sacrificing a bit of DPS.

    - According to DDOWiki the short bonus to attack speed Reconstruct gives stacks with Haste so that may boost DPS some more (not sure if this works on shuriken)
    Last edited by Firewall; 10-03-2014 at 05:17 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    How much ac do you think you will have at 28?

  3. #3
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    How much ac do you think you will have at 28?
    Hard to say. Surely above 100 but i didn't want to spec this build for AC.

    I have tested it on Lamannia and it looks very promising. With quickened Reconstruct you can drop Cocoon and have a free Twist slot which makes up for the loss of the free Shuriken Expertise feat that drow get. This also means i can drop my Gauntlets of Immortality from FoT and have another free gear slot. If really needed you can use Reconstruct scrolls between fights to save spellpoints but with 22 minute lasting buffs there is not much you need spellpoints for between shrines except the occasional Displacement.

    What i appreciate the most is having DDoor at will. In some quests this is really a time saver and a nice help. What i miss the most is having no Abundant Step so i guess i have to dust off my Cannith Boots of Propulsion.

    With the investment of 1 AP you can have Invisibility as SLA which can be nice too if you solo-invis run many quests so you don't have to spend precious Ki for Shadow Veil and only few SP after every lever or door you use.

    Since Character Copy is still not working on Lamannia i could only create a 32 point build and because the AH was empty and you have no means to get named endgame loot or even spelltouched shuriken it is hard to make a good prediction on endgame stats. But from my experience with the shuricannon this build has better self-healing and immunities, better utility through spells, a bit better offense (at least until they fix crit ranges) and less (but still very good) defense.
    Last edited by Firewall; 05-11-2014 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    (...) losing 3-4 dex points (enhancements are fluid) which is A LOT OF DAMAGE for adding in the new Shadow Docent for 2d6 SA which is interesting,

    but defintely not worth 3-4 Dex. The recon I feel is a wash, but how many heals you need on tap is up to you based on playstyle.(...)
    Ok i did some math to see how far in DPS this build would be truly behind your Meteor build.


    First some assumptions:

    - you are right, enhancements are fluid but there is only so much DEX and damage bonuses to get and if we want compare the builds lets max them to DPS from enhancements. If you want 2 DEX from Drow (6 AP), perma Tenser's (31 AP), Shadow Dodge and +1 DEX from Acrobat (15 AP), No Mercy and +2 DEX from Ninja Spy (28 AP) = 80 AP there would be no room for anything else and it would mean that you drop Haste Boost (which might be useless anyway at speed cap) and 1 AP in Shintao to gain 1 more DEX from your actual distribution.

    - This build would be configured almost the same and looses 2 points of Dex from the racial tree but on the other hand has those 6 AP you invest there to freely distribute (one of which i have to invest into Tier 5 Eldritch Knight to negate Arcane Spell Failure) so i can invest two of them in one more Sneak Attack die from Ninja Spy and have 3 more to distribute as i want.

    So your build would have 4 more DEX (2 base + 2 enhancements) and my build would have 3d6 more Sneak attack damage (2d6 from docent, 1d6 enhancements) and 1d4 more elemental damage from Spellsword because of 11 levels wizard compared to your 5 - with each attack.

    Now since i have quickened Reconstruct i have the advantage to drop Cocoon completely and have one free slot to Twist one more point of DEX (assuming we both want to keep the self-healing) so that would narrow it down to 3 more DEX for your build.

    So the comparison comes down to 3 DEX versus 13 points average of (situational) damage with each attack.


    Lets look how much 3 points of DEX increase DPS output:

    You showed that you can reach 85 DEX or more with your build so lets moderately assume i could reach 80 DEX and you would reach 83. Leaving the DEX to damage bonus aside the chances to throw a number of shuriken per attack animation for my build (simplified so no failure on a roll of 1) are 100%+80%+80%=260% or in other words an average of 2.6 shuriken per animation. If we add your 6% bonus chance and compare the chances it comes down to 266% / 260% = 1.023 or in other words your 3 points of DEX bring you 2.3% ahead in total DPS.


    But that is only half the truth.


    The other half (of attack time) is 10k stars. You showed you can reach a WIS of 49 (or more). Since both builds start with 16 WIS we can assume we reach the same value so for ease of calculation lets assume a 40 WIS. This adds the following chances to throw shuriken from 10k stars:

    First shuriken: 15*3+30=75%
    Second Shuriken: 15*3-20=25% * 0.75= 18.75%

    So this adds up to a 93.75% (lets say 94%) chance to throw stars. In this case your 6% better chance to throw shuriken is even less valuable which means:

    266+94 / 260+94 = 1.017 so while 10k stars is active you are only 1.7% ahead in DPS.

    Since both situations are true 50% of the time the average you are ahead in DPS by throwing more shuriken is 2% or in other words if it took me 50 seconds to kill a monster you would be one second faster with the kill than i am. The higher the total DEX and WIS values become the fewer the contribution to DPS of course so with 85 DEX and 49 WIS this value would be even less.


    But that's not all.


    Since we still have the fixed bonuses to put into the equation you can reach +1-2 points of damage per attack (from DEX depending on odd or even stat) while i can get an average of +13 (situational) damage per attack. I'm too lazy to calculate that into DPS since there are too many variables but naturally since a fixed damage bonus to each attack multiplies with the number of attacks it becomes more valuable the more attacks per second you can make and +11-12 points of damage per attack is already a considerable difference in my eyes and should compensate much of that remaining DPS difference.

    So in conclusion your build is far less than 2% ahead in total DPS and the difference of 3 points of DEX is not very high at all.

    So with my build having the additional benefit of Warforged immunities, real selfhealing, more spellpoints, longer buffs, more spells (DDoor, True Seeing, AOE and DOTs...) and higher fortification i think i can live with any remaining difference in DPS if there even is any. And in this conclusion being a warforged is the crucial element.
    Last edited by Firewall; 05-13-2014 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Ok i did some math to see how far in DPS this build would be truly behind your Meteor build.


    First some assumptions:

    - you are right, enhancements are fluid but there is only so much DEX and damage bonuses to get and if we want compare the builds lets max them to DPS from enhancements. If you want 2 DEX from Drow (6 AP), perma Tenser's (31 AP), Shadow Dodge and +1 DEX from Acrobat (15 AP), No Mercy and +2 DEX from Ninja Spy (28 AP) = 80 AP there would be no room for anything else and it would mean that you drop Haste Boost (which might be useless anyway at speed cap) and 1 AP in Shintao to gain 1 more DEX from your actual distribution.

    - This build would be configured almost the same and looses 2 points of Dex from the racial tree but on the other hand has those 6 AP you invest there to freely distribute (one of which i have to invest into Tier 5 Eldritch Knight to negate Arcane Spell Failure) so i can invest two of them in one more Sneak Attack die from Ninja Spy and have 3 more to distribute as i want.

    So your build would have 4 more DEX (2 base + 2 enhancements) and my build would have 3d6 more Sneak attack damage (2d6 from docent, 1d6 enhancements) and 1d4 more elemental damage from Spellsword because of 11 levels wizard compared to your 5 - with each attack.

    Now since i have quickened Reconstruct i have the advantage to drop Cocoon completely and have one free slot to Twist one more point of DEX (assuming we both want to keep the self-healing) so that would narrow it down to 3 more DEX for your build.

    So the comparison comes down to 3 DEX versus 13 points average of (situational) damage with each attack.


    Lets look how much 3 points of DEX increase DPS output:

    You showed that you can reach 85 DEX or more with your build so lets moderately assume i could reach 80 DEX and you would reach 83. Leaving the DEX to damage bonus aside the chances to throw a number of shuriken per attack animation for my build (simplified so no failure on a roll of 1) are 100%+80%+80%=260% or in other words an average of 2.6 shuriken per animation. If we add your 6% bonus chance and compare the chances it comes down to 266% / 260% = 1.023 or in other words your 3 points of DEX bring you 2.3% ahead in total DPS.


    But that is only half the truth.


    The other half (of attack time) is 10k stars. You showed you can reach a WIS of 49 (or more). Since both builds start with 16 WIS we can assume we reach the same value so for ease of calculation lets assume a 40 WIS. This adds the following chances to throw shuriken from 10k stars:

    First shuriken: 15*3+30=75%
    Second Shuriken: 15*3-20=25% * 0.75= 18.75%

    So this adds up to a 93.75% (lets say 94%) chance to throw stars. In this case your 6% better chance to throw shuriken is even less valuable which means:

    266+94 / 260+94 = 1.017 so while 10k stars is active you are only 1.7% ahead in DPS.

    Since both situations are true 50% of the time the average you are ahead in DPS by throwing more shuriken is 2% or in other words if it took me 50 seconds to kill a monster you would be one second faster with the kill than i am. The higher the total DEX and WIS values become the fewer the contribution to DPS of course so with 85 DEX and 49 WIS this value would be even less.


    But that's not all.


    Since we still have the fixed bonuses to put into the equation you can reach +1-2 points of damage per attack (from DEX depending on odd or even stat) while i can get an average of +13 (situational) damage per attack. I'm too lazy to calculate that into DPS since there are too many variables but naturally since a fixed damage bonus to each attack multiplies with the number of attacks it becomes more valuable the more attacks per second you can make and +11-12 points of damage per attack is already a considerable difference in my eyes and should compensate much of that remaining DPS difference.

    So in conclusion your build is far less than 2% ahead in total DPS and the difference of 3 points of DEX is not very high at all.

    So with my build having the additional benefit of Warforged immunities, real selfhealing, more spellpoints, longer buffs, more spells (DDoor, True Seeing, AOE and DOTs...) and higher fortification i think i can live with any remaining difference in DPS if there even is any. And in this conclusion being a warforged is the crucial element.
    Biggest problem here with your math:

    SA damage is not fulltime. On my build with my current gear, it's close, but still not full time. 1 Point of SA damage is worth about .5 pt's of Proc damage in my mind, or about .3 to .25 points of equivalent base damage since base damage can be increased with crits and up to 20% with Vulnerability, 5% in SD, 5% with black armor and 25% with Archer Focus on bosses.

    14 Points of SA damage is NOT the same as 14 pts of base damage, or full time proc damage.

    Why not bladeforged 9 Rogue 5 Wizard 6 Monk then? You don't need 11 wizard levels to have Recon with BF. You could have even more SA.

    I just TR'd into an Elf 9 Rogue/6 Monk/5 Wizard to get more SA on my main with Arbalester/Elf Core for 20 Meter PBS/SA range. I have even less need for healing now that my maximum damage output has been extended by another 10 Meters as an elf. I also gained 3 SA dice and didn't lose any Dex (actually I might have lost 1 as an epic feat)
    Last edited by jakeelala; 05-13-2014 at 12:44 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    SNIP
    Also,

    WF/BF ranged characters are terrible and you will see why if you roll one.

    IPS basically doesn't work on them they are too large. The only reason I have a shuriken thrower is because I abandoned my Monkcher main about 8 months ago who is BF due to the problems with IPS. Having Recon on this build is not a good trade off for sporadically working IPS, if you ask me. Have fun with it if you do it.
    Last edited by jakeelala; 05-13-2014 at 12:41 PM.
    good at business

  7. #7
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    I know SA is a situational bonus that's why i stated in the calculation (in brackets) that it is situational. You can even argue that 1d4 elemental damage is situational since some mobs are immune to it so i added that already too. Still my point stands that 6% bonus chance to throw shuriken is far from being 6% DPS because the higher your DEX and thus your overall chance to throw shuriken already is the lower the contribution of each point of DEX (and thus each additional 2% chance) becomes in overall DPS.

    I have tested the build on Lamannia and IPS is really not much of a problem since the only monsters it really affects is packs of wolves and even then i find it not much of an issue. Trash mobs are a non issue anyway with these builds in my experience.

    All in all less than 2% loss of damage is fine with me for the benefits i get even if you don't factor in any Sneak Attack and Elemental Damage. This was more or less a calculation for me to see what kind of difference in DPS 3 points of DEX really are. And i'm quite satisfied with the result.

    The reason not to go bladeforged is obviously the number of AP you would have to spend to get reconstruct. If you want Shadow Dodge, perma Tensers and No Mercy you have few choices to spend AP on. And what i like about this build is that it has DDoor and a really high spellpoint pool so less wizard levels would drop that considerably. Only 5 wizard levels also mean one less free wizard feat and the buffs like Displacement only last for a minute. If you wanted you could go that way though i guess in sacrificing some DEX - and Improved Uncanny Dodge might also be a nice addition though not really needed.
    Last edited by Firewall; 05-13-2014 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I know SA is a situational bonus that's why i stated in the calculation (in brackets) that it is situational. You can even argue that 1d4 elemental damage is situational since some mobs are immune to it so i added that already too. Still my point stands that 6% bonus chance to throw shuriken is far from being 6% DPS because the higher your DEX and thus your overall chance to throw shuriken already is the lower the contribution of each point of DEX (and thus each additional 2% chance) becomes in overall DPS.

    I have tested the build on Lamannia and IPS is really not much of a problem since the only monsters it really affects is packs of wolves and even then i find it not much of an issue. Trash mobs are a non issue anyway with these builds in my experience.

    All in all less than 2% loss of damage is fine with me for the benefits i get even if you don't factor in any Sneak Attack and Elemental Damage. This was more or less a calculation for me to see what kind of difference in DPS 3 points of DEX really are. And i'm quite satisfied with the result.

    The reason not to go bladeforged is obviously the number of AP you would have to spend to get reconstruct. If you want Shadow Dodge, perma Tensers and No Mercy you have few choices to spend AP on. And what i like about this build is that it has DDoor and a really high spellpoint pool so less wizard levels would drop that considerably. Only 5 wizard levels also mean one less free wizard feat and the buffs like Displacement only last for a minute. If you wanted you could go that way though i guess in sacrificing some DEX - and Improved Uncanny Dodge might also be a nice addition though not really needed.
    Shadows, Wolves (any dog that isnt a giant winter one), Halflings, and occasionally if a red/purple name is large you will miss everything in front of you.

    No mercy isn't necessary unless you only run in shiradi which I dont anymore. SD is better.

    But as I've said in other threads:

    The power of my build platform is largely contained in 5 Wizard levels, 6 Monk levels, and 3 Rogue levels. Whatever else you do with it is going to make marginal differences in one way or the other. At the end of the day 90% of the platform is in those 14 levels, which this build contains.

    The other 6 levels are almost immaterial. As is race. That's why I got mad and called you a stealer for not acknowledging that.
    Last edited by jakeelala; 05-13-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    The problem with large red or purple nameds you have regardless of race but most endbosses don't have many mobs around them anyway. But i never found wolves and shadows or halflings (i can't even remember which quest has halflings as monsters) to be much trouble. There are only so few quests that even contain them in large groups where IPS could make a difference so i'm willing to take the hit for the benefits.

    On Lamannia i took the first AP of my three freely distributable AP in Mechanic for Arbalester so i have an extended SA range too which is nice but as i said in the shuricannon thread i usually prefer damage at full range for a ranged toon. That is what i found when i played my Assassin/Artificer pre U19 which was mostly effective short to mid ranged.

    Concerning pure DPS you are right that 5 Wiz and 3 Rog add a nice DPS to a build if you can fit them in. But there is more to a build than just DPS in my opinion - and the synergy between 11 Wiz and Warforged is truly awesome in my eyes and absolutely unique to combine with a viable thrower. And it really was psykoosys build that opened my eyes to that. And 11 wizard is the minimum number of wizard levels you have to take to get Reconstruct so this was the plan from the beginning. If psykoosy was really inspired by your build i truly cannot see by which part of it since the only similarity is Drow and Ninja Spy enhancements which are not your invention but my own.

    And i do not run around and demand from every thrower build that uses Drow and Ninja Spy enhancements that they should acknowledge my invention, give me credits and name their builds after mine. Which would be almost all thrower builds including yours. It surely is a nice idea and i never claimed that i was the first and only one using Tenser's and Shadow Dodge (even though you didn't even post your build here before) though i actually had the idea by myself and was planning something like that before you had your Meteor out. But builds are builds and i really think mine is completely different from yours in everything but these two enhancements and it still uses the basics that i demonstrated with the shuricannon like almost all viable throwers do. The forums are full of quite more similar builds and if all melee builds would have the same name after the first build that used Overwhelming critical with Cleave or that Combined fire spellls with FvS or Magic Missile with Shiradi we only had a handful of names for builds. Psykoosy did not credit me for my shuricannon even though he uses Drow and Ninja Spy so you think i should call him a stealer and tear his build thread down?

    In my opinion builds are to open people's eyes for the synergies and what is possible and to give those who can not or don't like to plan builds a plan to make a fun and viable character. And also to discuss mechanics with other builders so you can plan builds more to your liking and fun. And with an ever changing system builds come and go anyway so there is no need for vanity.

    If you wanted cheers from the masses for the idea of using those two enhancements with throwers for the first time you should have simply posted it here and put it up for discussion and people would even had a way to reference you. Many people don't even post their own created builds so it is not unlikely that someone else already created a build similar to yours much earlier already so everybody who wants to claim to be the first in anything has to post his builds here for reference. Otherwise it is a bit strange to call people stealers and demand they rename their builds after yours because you posted something that used two similar enhancements in some other forum especially since you told me in another thread here on these forums that you had absolutely nothing to do with the guy who posted your build on the other forum and insulted me there in another thread.
    Last edited by Firewall; 05-13-2014 at 08:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    I think the original meteor swhoer build is still better. Though it's interesting to compare differences and similarities of a variation on an idea.

  11. #11
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    An interesting variant if you have the epic completionist is that since you don't need Cocoon you can twist Impregnable Mind from Magister Tier 1 and Dragonhide from Draconic Incarnation Tier one in addition to for example Enlightenment and Sense Weakness and if you also switch out Blinding Speed against Epic Reflexes you can have a great boost to fort and will saves (reflex is already great) while having all saves with no fail on a 1. This can be boosted some more if you take Resilience instead of Precision and Bluwark of Defense instead of Greater DEX so you are more or less immune to everything that you can save against.

  12. #12
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    An interesting variant if you have the epic completionist is that since you don't need Cocoon you can twist Impregnable Mind from Magister Tier 1 and Dragonhide from Draconic Incarnation Tier one in addition to for example Enlightenment and Sense Weakness and if you also switch out Blinding Speed against Epic Reflexes you can have a great boost to fort and will saves (reflex is already great) while having all saves with no fail on a 1. This can be boosted some more if you take Resilience instead of Precision and Bluwark of Defense instead of Greater DEX so you are more or less immune to everything that you can save against.
    my builds, post-speed tests, have all switched out blinding speed for epic reflexes. this has absolutely nothing to do with either being warforged, or 11 wizard.

    with epic completionist, anyone can twist saves. that's also not specific to warforged. especially if you run SD, which means not needing sense weakness your best friend is a cc caster. of course, no fail saves on 1's is unnecessary in probably 99% of content. Reflex is 90% benefit in having no fail saves. that's how much more often you face rolling a 1 on reflex with a serious consequence, versus will and fort saves. for the remaining 99% of the time, you'd be better off twisting more aggressive things. like trying to catch your dex up to a dex race's number.
    Last edited by jakeelala; 05-15-2014 at 09:40 PM.
    good at business

  13. #13
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    I never said it is only doable with wizard or warforged. The only advantage warforged have is that you have one more twist slot for not needing Cocoon so you can still take Sense Weakness and Enlightenment - or whatever else - in the other two twist slots. And with the way Mortal Fear seems to be implemented into the game right now - as was discussed in another thread - i would not want to miss Sense Weakness and No Mercy but that's just me. Shadowdancer surely is a viable Epic Destiny for shuriken throwers but since i prefer full-range non-situational damage over short/mid-range Sneak Attack damage Shiradi is still my preferred Destiny.

    Going for no fail saves is nothing really overpowered. I just think it is a nice addition for people who prefer to go as defensively as possible and have no problem sacrificing a bit of damage for it so i wanted to mention it as a build variant.

  14. #14
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Firewall, What are the pros/cons of the Warcannon vs the Shuricannon from your perspective?

    I was thinking of maybe giving the Warcannon a try and was curious how close the DPS was to your Shuricannon.

    I really like my WF Artie with Evasion and full Reconstruct while mitigating damage from range and don't want to give up rogue skills. To me quickened-reconstruct is priceless and I don't like just having cocoon.

  15. #15
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Firewall, What are the pros/cons of the Warcannon vs the Shuricannon from your perspective?

    I was thinking of maybe giving the Warcannon a try and was curious how close the DPS was to your Shuricannon.

    I really like my WF Artie with Evasion and full Reconstruct while mitigating damage from range and don't want to give up rogue skills. To me quickened-reconstruct is priceless and I don't like just having cocoon.
    Pros are basically everything that i listed in the OP. And i tried to compare both in the last sentence of post #3 here.

    I don't think the splash builds will have better DPS versus a pure monk now that they have fixed the extended crit range for the Ninja Spy capstone on Lamannia.

    Basically i would say you trade the better self-healing, immunities, higher fortification, possible rogue skills, spells and spellpoints of the Warcannon against faster run speed, more passive Ki regeneration, probably better saves, improved evasion and Abundant Step of the shuricannon (and with the extended crit range probably better DPS). The shuricannon also is a bit better suited for tanking with Ki Shout if you need it.

  16. #16
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Putting this up for discussion. Basically this is inspired by the good self-healing and great casting ability of the Dread Ninja build but with Haste Boost, higher DEX and BAB from permanent Tenser's Transformation and Shadow Dodge for DPS and with Warforged immunities.

    Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rogue Shuriken Build
    ...
    Enhancement: Warforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Warforged - Inscribed Armor (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Eldritch Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Spellsword: Shock (Rank 1)
    ...
    So far I like the build. A minor observation while doing enhancements is that the Eldritch Knight Core 2 gives -5% Arcane Failure chance so no need to take Inscribed armor. I took it initially and saw the 5% fail chance go away then noticed the EK tool-tip and then unspeced the racial and never got the 5% back...

    Also, which are the best SpellTouched Shuricans I should be looking for?

    So far I think the best I have found is Corsucating (2-12light), Crushing-wave, Wounding, Parrying VIII.

    No luck so far with a Life-Stealing (or Paralyzing).

    It looks like you can get the abilities from A & B twice...

    Is it possible to get the same ability twice (like stealing)?

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_Challenge_Pack
    Last edited by Nodoze; 05-26-2014 at 11:19 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Thank you. Yes i missed that. That frees up one more AP. I reworked the Enhancements a bit because at endgame Haste Boost is redundant since you will be reaching the throwing speed cap. Instead of Sting of the Ninja you can also put two more points in Stealthy for one more passive Ki regeneration while sneaking since the poison DOTs are not working with named shuriken anymore since U21. Hopefully they will fix that.

    I also changed the leveling order of the classes for easier leveling so you will have 3 levels of monk and 5 levels of wizard at level 9 which give you more spellpoints, the Extend and Quicken (or Mental Toughness) feats and level 3 spells earlier and also enable you to make use of Ninja Training II (6 AP) and permanent Tenser's (31 AP) as early as level 10.

    I dropped the idea to maybe exchange Precision versus Resilience and probably also take Bulwark of Defense at level 24 for additional saves since Tenser's already doubles your Reconstruct cooldown from 5 to 10 seconds and Resilience would triple that to 30 seconds which is too long for my liking. With so much Sneak attack damage Precision is probably the best choice.

    Since you will reach speed cap in endgame the best choice for the lvl 27 feat is probably Epic Reflexes since you can cast extended Haste for running speed at will. I already edited the OP with my proposed changes.



    Regarding spelltouched shuriken i personally like to use an Improved Paralyzing with 2d6 fire damage, Steam and Hemorrhaging (2d6 untyped vs. bleeding monsters). You always have a 5% chance to paralyze monsters with it. In lower level epics and against elementals the chance is even higher.

    Life Stealing is not really worth going for since they nerfed it to only have a chance of about 33% (according to the Wiki) to drain a level on a crit. With the extended crit range of the Ninja Spy core enhancement working for pure monks with the next update it will make sense for a shuricannon again but with a crit range of only 10% with a multiclass character i would not recommend it.

    I also have a DPS spelltouched shuriken that has 2d6 force damage, lightning strike, Maladroit and Fracturing (2d6 untyped vs. mobs with skeletons) and various ones with metal types or Greater Good to break DR.

    Life Stealing or Improved paralyzing cannot be on a shuriken twice. I would try to get at least two enhancements with 2d6 damage of which the first is light, good, force or sonic damage and then Improved Paralyzing. It will be hard enough to farm for those. I have lost count how often i have used the lottery until i had some good shuriken for various situations.

    Cool that you like the build. I have much fun with it on Lamannia too.
    Last edited by Firewall; 05-27-2014 at 03:51 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member andreascott89's Avatar
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    Question:

    If you threw a point into Archmage to pick up SLA magic missle, could that be profitably woven into the attack sequence or would that mess up throwing too much? Assuming of course you are running in Shiradi.

    Thx

    J

  19. #19
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreascott89 View Post
    Question:

    If you threw a point into Archmage to pick up SLA magic missle, could that be profitably woven into the attack sequence or would that mess up throwing too much? Assuming of course you are running in Shiradi.

    Thx

    J
    Basically that would work but i think you would loose DPS instead of gain it. It interrupts the attack sequence which is especially bad when you have 10k stars active half of the time. And since you only have five missiles with a six second cooldown the damage is quite low because you don't have Maximize, Empower and no significant element and force spellpower to boost missile damage as well as proc damage from shiradi. And on top of that it even costs precious spellpoints. Sure two points is not much but if you spam it it adds up and your spellsword enhancement already slowly drains your spellpoints too. All in all i think it's not worth it.

  20. #20
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Basically that would work but i think you would loose DPS instead of gain it. It interrupts the attack sequence which is especially bad when you have 10k stars active half of the time. And since you only have five missiles with a six second cooldown the damage is quite low because you don't have Maximize, Empower and no significant element and force spellpower to boost missile damage as well as proc damage from shiradi. And on top of that it even costs precious spellpoints. Sure two points is not much but if you spam it it adds up and your spellsword enhancement already slowly drains your spellpoints too. All in all i think it's not worth it.
    I did not take Mental Toughness and certainly noticed the spell pool being tight even with 11th level Wizard. Having Extended Displacement, Haste, & Rage (& cold/fire shield) are all nice (on top of perma-Tenser's) but they are fairly short duration & have to be recast quite a bit. The short-term and quickened reconstructs can drain the mana-pool pretty quick. When I started the "Fight to the Finish" with extended long-duration buffs (including resists instead of ship buffs) I often found myself debating on turning off the EK spell sword as I was that low on mana and didn't want to burn pots. The normal fight is 10 mins and the buffs are 11 mins long but I was consistently getting the 5th star and getting an extra 3 mins where my buffs would run out if not extended. I really wish I had a bauble as on some runs I barely squeaked by on Cocoon and lower level repair spells while killing the final boss... I wasn't planning on taking cocoon and likely wouldn't on this build when fully leveled/geared but I was glad I had it twisted in those situations.

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