Paladin Changes

[Severlin]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

[Retired_Old_Gamer]

I'm not a big fan of a 2 level splash to get class perks, as most trees are front loaded.

+ 8 is huge, but hey, it's a Paladin.

Another concern is the AP's spent for all this, Any insight for that?

[slarden]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

So a max of 8 for 2 paladin levels if I understand this correctly?

Considering how broken monkchers and other builds are this seems like an odd nerf. For many classes 8 won't make a huge difference but it definitely wrecks some higher charisma builds.

I guess I would just ask with all the balance issues in the game why focus on one that isn't all that game breaking compared to others?

[Bridge_Dweller]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Divine might needs a similar nerf, and while you're at it Stunning Blow's DC formula needs to be evaluated.

[CeltEireson]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

[Impaqt]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

[Ovrad]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Honestly, I think you could go 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) and it would still be more than fair.

The rest of the proposed changes sounds good to me.

(Of course the PrEs might need some work as well though)

[Lauf]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

the general idea is solid, but IMO you're looking to put the changes in the wrong place. the damage seems to be something that's better off connected to the enhancement tree cores, which are only available at certain levels.
if you place the changes you wish to have into the cores rather than auto-granted with class levels, you'll have the ability to give bash light damage to SaD, and weapon light damage to KoTC, which to me makes more sense than having them flatly apply to all paladins.

as for connecting divine grace to pally levels - although I've had my share of builds using it (= I'm not a "pally-splash-hater") I don't think you're connecting it hard enough for it to really matter. drop it to from a +8 to a +6, and now you'll have normal every-day builds starting to consider splashing more pally levels.
+8 seems to me to be high enough so that 90% of the players won't be affected, and the few sorcs that will be affected aren't going to deep splash pally on their sorc.... so you're not really getting where you want to go, just rubbing some people the wrong way.

-- edit

I'm gonna join Impaqt in saying the PrEs/mechanics need more love rather than adding just bonus flat damage.

[Grailhawk]

Divine might needs a similar nerf, and while you're at it Stunning Blow's DC formula needs to be evaluated.

I don't really see the nerf 2+3x4= 14 which is a 38 Char most the splashes are right around there any ways its just frees them up a bit with base stat allocation.

[thegreatneil]

Weapon of Light need its damage increased based on Devotion spell power.
1d6-3d6 is fine in heroics, not in epics.

I do want to state I like these ideas, getting me excited about paladins again.

[maddong]

Awesome work! A reason to play a paladin!

I'd restrict the saves more. 8 saves is the equivalent of 4-8 feats. Divine might should be level based too.

Since you are lowering EE to hit how about also lowering EE saves at the same time.

[elgranmago13]

"~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level."

Does anyone have problems with their paladins dying? It's the ability to kill stuff that they need. The weapons of light is a good start, but as Impaqt said it's the PREs that need fixing in order for the class to be better.

[Raiderone]

Honestly, I think you could go 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) and it would still be more than fair.

The rest of the proposed changes sounds good to me.

(Of course the PrEs might need some work as well though)

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

[Forul]

My thoughts are as follows;
The light damage given is minuscule in proportion to the amount of hit points current epic mobs have. I believe a percent base increase would be more appropriate or have the aoe burst affect every hit.

I think limiting the charisma to saves is a good idea but over all wont have any effect.
There is no reason to push more paladin levels if i cant get my charisma high enough to go over the mark.
for example if this update went live i would lose 3 points of charisma from my saves on my monk. This is not a large enough change to make me want to take more paladin levels or switch my build. Nor will it harm my build at all.

I believe that the prestige classes from paladin also need a buff as well as their ability to heal themselves. Right now there are very few reasons to go paladin over some other melee class such as fighter.

[Arkadios]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

Agreed, the changes here are nice but I don't think it will entice any more players to play paladins, if you already play one it's a nice little boost but other than that it's not a big enough difference.

I think Paladins should be given a few class feats of their own. Perhaps 2 or 3 slots at either levels; 8 and 16 or at levels; 6,12 and 18.
Class feats could include:
Toughness, Combat expertise, Shield mastery, Improved shield mastery, Improved shield bash, Shield Deflection, Empower heal, extend, quicken, dodge, mobility, spring attack, Resilience, Diehard, Extra turning, Improved turning, Mental toughness, Improved mental toughness, Tower shield proficiency.

Maybe a few others like the reflex saving feats, magical training? etc.
Give Paladins those as bonus feats and I think you'll find that Paladins will become a more valid class to play.

~ Arkadios.

P.S I won't go on about barbarians in this thread but I think they need their own one too.

[CeltEireson]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

And as it wont let me edit my post.

The one proviso with the above is the DCs of existing content in terms of saving against mob spells/traps - I don't know whether you factored in the kind of saves that paladin splash evasion builds could get to currently when deciding on saves in epic elite, but if you did and you restrict the bonus available then you might want to relook at those DCs again.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

these are some nice changes for paladin in heroic levels but i don't see much that will make much of a difference once they get into epics because the light damage has no way of scaling like adding to critical profiles and improved base damage do

Just for clarity:
At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.
the burst will be the same amount of light damage as the weapon and then doubled at 17?

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.
this refers to the weapon, not an aura, correct?


charisma to saves:
you are trying to spread out the bonuses for paladin for the people who splash 2 paladin, 2+(3x paladin level) is not nearly enough, 2x paladin level would be more than enough while still providing a nice +4 to all saves for those with the splash while very likely not hindering anyone with more than 8 paladin levels

^another option is to lower EE enemy spell dcs to a more realistic number so the paladin splash is not absolutly required by everyone who wants to stay alive

[Ovrad]

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

That's a good point, but even with 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) it would be better. Dilettante can give up to 5 to saves, while 2 pally with that formula is 6.

[CeltEireson]

I'm not a big fan of a 2 level splash to get class perks, as most trees are front loaded.

+ 8 is huge, but hey, it's a Paladin.

Another concern is the AP's spent for all this, Any insight for that?

As far as I can see its all going to be core paladin stuff i.e. as you level you gain them automatically so you wont need to spend any APs to get any of this.

[cru121]

Right now there are very few reasons to go paladin over some other melee class such as fighter.

Nerf BF Reconstruct and suddenly paladin selfhealing becomes much more valuable.