The Smashbuckler

[jortann]

UPDATE 7/18/14 ~ Changed leveling order. Fixed Stat Points

UPDATE I threw together some thoughts on race. Human looks best ... sigh. I decided on a level split. Also, I decided on Stalwart D instead of Kensai. Changed the level progression and the feats. I'm feeling pretty good about it, but I am still looking for any advice before I TR in a couple of days. - Thanks Everyone!

Forumites! I bring you the SMASHBUCKLER!!!!

Mainly I bring it to you, because I want your thoughts to help make this a great build. My goal is a workable Fascinate and DPS… Also damage mitigation is important as well as self healing. I plan to be running in Legendary Dreadnaught as an Epic Destiny.

PLAYSTYLE
I will mainly be running this guy solo or in a duo. So, I wont need to worry about others launching fireballs and such in the center of a fascinated group. Fascinate and Coup de Grace for the win... with enough DPs to beat down bosses.

RACE
After taking everyone's advice and looking a little deeper into the racial trees, I came up with 3 options.

Human - This one seems to be the best. 17AP
30% Healing Amp
Action boost for 20% Damage, +3 STR
+1 STR
(and 4 other APs to be spent in tree, wherever you like)
Extra Feat
Extra Skill Point

Dwarf - In case you want to have a cool beard and you don't like humans. (its not bad... but human still looks better) 18AP
+30 HP
+4 CON
+4 to hit/damage with axes
+3 saves against magic

Horc - In case you want to be big and have awesome dances (and have plans to spend APs somewhere else) 6AP
Orc Fury level 2
+4 STR

STATS
STR - 18 (all level ups here)
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14

SKILLS
Perform, UMD, Balance, Jump, Heal, (also, there is enough to throw in DD and Search for trapping - Smashburgler!)

LEVEL SPLIT
12 Bard/ 6 Fighter/ 2 Rogue

FEATS AND LEVELING (Thanks To Cthru for the order!)
1. Rogue - SWF, PA
2. Fighter - Cleave
3. Bard - Extend
4. Bard
5. Bard
6. Fighter -Shield Mastery, G.Cleave
7. Fighter
8. Rogue
9. Bard - ISWF
10. Fighter - IC Slash
11. Bard
12. Fighter - Improved Shield Mastery
13. Bard -
14. Fighter - Greater SWF
15. Bard – Emp Heal
16. Bard
17. Bard
18. Bard - Quicken
19. Bard
20. Bard

21. Overwhelming Crit
24. Dodge?
27. Epic Reflex

ED Feats:
Elusive Target
PSWF

APs
35 - Swashbuckler
17 - Human
24 - Stalwart
4 - Extra

[jortann]

2 days, 131 views and 0 comments.

Did I get it right on the first try and there is no advice?

Did everyone go on Holiday this weekend?

Even Unbongwah didn't comment and he comments in every build thread.

Something's amiss.... ready the tinfoil hats!









and now this has been bumped....

[unbongwah]

Even Unbongwah didn't comment and he comments in every build thread.

Hey, I don't always comment, sometimes I - OH **** I FELL FOR IT

I haven't had a chance to play with SWF / Swashbucklers yet, so this is all just theory-crafting on my part. But right now I feel like the "sweet spot" on a mostly-bard MCed build is either bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 or the classic bard 16 / ftr 2 / rog 2, depending on which is more important to you: two extra feats and defensive stance; or higher-lvl bard goodies. Not a fan of bard 14 / ftr 4 / rog 2 because there's no must-have extra feat which is worth giving up Inspire Heroics, Inspire Excellence, and lvl 6 spells, IMHO.

[Jhaeran]

Its the STR version of the 12/6/2 build - Count of Monte Cristo (CHA)/PDK Squash Buckler(CHA)/Dwarven Parody(CON)/Barbarossa(STR) with a half orc rather than human/drow/PDK.

All are very similar with slight variations. I'd look around those builds, they aren't that far down and pull inspiration from there.

I TR'd my 20 barb into a 20 Bard and was ok with it - the main issue being a complete lack of synergy with the racial enhancements. I'm going to be going to the Dwarf build, while the Horc worked it was just sub par in a lot of ways - mostly mitigated by gear though.

Horc - not much, stat boost? Some extra Str at the cost of CHA
Human - extra feat, extra skill, +amp, +racial stat
PDK - extra feat, extra skill, +amp, +cha to hit + tactics
Drow - extra CHA and pretty good racials
Dwarf - more CON and throw your weight around.

Unless you go with a different level split of course Someone in the Parody thread had a splash of FVS in there instead of rogue with heavier emphasis on casting. Guess it all depends if you want to focus primarily on CC or Melee or are looking for a mix.

[jortann]

Hey, I don't always comment, sometimes I - OH **** I FELL FOR IT

I haven't had a chance to play with SWF / Swashbucklers yet, so this is all just theory-crafting on my part. But right now I feel like the "sweet spot" on a mostly-bard MCed build is either bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 or the classic bard 16 / ftr 2 / rog 2, depending on which is more important to you: two extra feats and defensive stance; or higher-lvl bard goodies. Not a fan of bard 14 / ftr 4 / rog 2 because there's no must-have extra feat which is worth giving up Inspire Heroics, Inspire Excellence, and lvl 6 spells, IMHO.

Here is my logic....
- Inspire Heroics is the same as Greater Heroism... Inspire Excellence would be nice but its not uber awesome. And level 6 spells without a lot of CHA would not be that great. I will be counting on my fascinate to CC mobs. Thus 16 Bard does not look that inviting.

- The other end, 12 Bard... you miss out on level 5 spells (GH being the big one - of course it could be scrolled). And you miss out on a +1 to Inspire courage. The bonus here is 6 fighter levels and the extra feats. This would allow you to Grab Weapon Specialization and get deeper into the Kensai tree... More damage.

- So, I kind of landed in the middle... I'm not sure if that was the best. At 14 you get GH and still enough feats for some Kensai goodness. Of course if I relented and played a skinny human I could get the extra feat and enjoy more kensai goodness. Flavor or damage? If only they sold cosmetic race skins in the store....

[Ancient]

Its the STR version of the 12/6/2 build - Count of Monte Cristo (CHA)/PDK

The count of Monte Cristo posted in this forum was a pure human bard. Great if you like bardly stuff, and a good read for general bard stuff. But for a 12/6/2 or splash variant, I think the other builds are closer to the target.

[Ancient]

(GH being the big one - of course it could be scrolled). And you miss out on a +1 to Inspire courage. The bonus here is 6 fighter levels and the extra feats. This would allow you to Grab Weapon Specialization and get deeper into the Kensai tree... More damage.

You have your own answer on GH, and the big bonus from the fighter enhancements is found in the stalwart tree which works well with a buckler.

[jortann]

You have your own answer on GH, and the big bonus from the fighter enhancements is found in the stalwart tree which works well with a buckler.

If I am looking at it right you need to take 6 levels of fighter to get the stalwart defense stance, correct?

It does seem like the stalwart defense package would bring a little more to the table than Kensai.... but, but, but... more damage!?!

[Jhaeran]

The count of Monte Cristo posted in this forum was a pure human bard. Great if you like bardly stuff, and a good read for general bard stuff. But for a 12/6/2 or splash variant, I think the other builds are closer to the target.

Right, and the barbarosa had some FVS along with 12 Ftr - so not exact matches. All good reading though for various reasons.

I like the split - because I like a multiclass and anything but 20 bard loses evasion, so you get 2 rogue since no monk. At that point, you could go 18/2 but the rogue by itself isn't that valuable so its better to stay pure. the 20% hp alone is nice with the SD stance and there are some other niceties added. You do give up on spellcasting though.

[CThruTheEgo]

As I see it, there are 3 break points for splashing fighter on a swashbuckler. 1-2 for feats and/or extra action boosts. 6 for stalwart defender stance. And 12 for power surge. You really don't need the extra feat from 4 fighter.

I see 2 feats that you could possibly drop. Weapon focus only gets you access to tier 2 weapon group specialization, and 1 feat plus 2 AP is a high cost for only 1 point of damage imo. Epic reflexes is probably not needed since swashbucklers add a lot to their reflex. Second skin (tier 5 in swashbuckler) gets you 6 reflex for 6 AP. Figure out what your reflex is going to be and see if it's needed. 60 is what you want to hit. Speaking of reflex, you might also be able to dump dex altogether. Again, see what your reflex will be and then decide. You might be able to move those points into int and take rogue at first level so you can get trap skills. Also, I personally favor perfect swf and perfect twf for ED feats, but I tend to focus on dps.

I would definitely change your feat order. Cleave and great cleave are very handy for low levels when you can pretty much one shot mobs so you can just cleave your way through whole groups. You don't need empower heal until much closer to 20, maybe even after. Why the rush to 10 bard? Mix some fighter in there early (like levels 2 and 3) to move power attack, cleave, and great cleave up.

What exactly is horc getting you? You mention str as the primary reason but you're not even starting with 20. What are you spending your AP on in the racial tree? Human would make it easier to fit in trap skills if you wanted them. Human also has access to action surge, which will have good synergy if you're taking extra action boost from kensai and dreadnaught. You could end up with enough action boosts to keep them up fairly consistently and an extra 3 str with each action boost would be nice. And as a str based build, you're going to want to spend 1 AP in warchanter for skaldic rage (+4 str from a song). Listing your enhancements specifically, instead of just how many points in each tree, will allow us to offer better feedback on how to optimize them.

Here are some options I'd consider. If you only go 2 fighter, you could go human, drop weapon focus and epic reflexes, pick up shield mastery and improved shield mastery (with skirmisher enhancement from swashbuckler and legendary shield mastery twisted you get a total of 15% doublestrike, 20 PRR, and 10% dodge), dump dex, move rogue to level 1 and put extra stat points into int for trap skills.

Or go 6 fighter, drop weapon focus, pick up shield mastery and improved shield mastery, drop most/all of kensai and the racial tree to spend at least 22 in stalwart defender for PRR, saves, HP, and 6 str or con. I'd still favor human with trap skills for this option as well, but I don't see much incentive to go horc so that's just my bias.

Fitting the shield mastery feats and twisting legendary shield mastery, 11 action boosts with action surge str, and running in legendary dreadnaught, this build would be a melee powerhouse.

Keep in mind also that warchanter and spellsinger will be getting some serious changes very soon, so any build planning should be tentative at this point.

Hope that helps.

[jortann]

As I see it, there are...

Thanks C! for the solid advice.

I'm definitely set of going 6 fighter now. Dipping into the SD tree and putting in the shield mastery feats. I will rework the OP later to reflect the changes.

When I put the build together I threw all the Bard levels at the front thinking I would enjoy all of the Swashbuckling goodness as I leveled, but you are right. I should just cleave away early on.

You almost have me convinced to play human. Truth be told its the animations for human that really bug me. They run like they have metal rod in their backs or a stick shoved.... anyway, you get my point. I guess there is always the Dwarf CON option.... but could we really still call it the Smashbuckler then? Probably not.

Again, thanks for the help!

[CThruTheEgo]

When I put the build together I threw all the Bard levels at the front thinking I would enjoy all of the Swashbuckling goodness as I leveled, but you are right. I should just cleave away early on.

As a swashbuckler you will still tear through mobs pretty quickly, but cleave/great cleave will make it even quicker. There is a lot of good stuff in swashbuckler, but the main feature at low levels is the swashbuckling stance. Find the balance that works for you to get what you want. 3 bard, then 2 fighter; or 1 rogue, 2 fighter, 3 bard.

The lower levels go by so quickly that it won't matter too much, but I just wouldn't want to put the cleaves off until the teens. Starting with 3 bard is a solid option, especially if you have a weapon with keen on it. I was fortunate enough to get a Tiefling Assassin's Blade and used it all the way until greensteel and imp crit.

You almost have me convinced to play human. Truth be told its the animations for human that really bug me. They run like they have metal rod in their backs or a stick shoved.... anyway, you get my point.

LOL! Well I can't argue with that.

I guess there is always the Dwarf CON option.... but could we really still call it the Smashbuckler then? Probably not.

The dwarven defender parody is a solid build. You can get your con to about the same as you would on a cha or str based build so I think con based really has a lot going for it. Going con based dwarf just really emphasizes what a stalwart defender/swashbuckler does best. There is incredible synergy there.

[Chimeran1]

Here is my logic....
- Inspire Heroics is the same as Greater Heroism... Inspire Excellence would be nice but its not uber awesome. And level 6 spells without a lot of CHA would not be that great. I will be counting on my fascinate to CC mobs. Thus 16 Bard does not look that inviting.

- The other end, 12 Bard... you miss out on level 5 spells (GH being the big one - of course it could be scrolled). And you miss out on a +1 to Inspire courage. The bonus here is 6 fighter levels and the extra feats. This would allow you to Grab Weapon Specialization and get deeper into the Kensai tree... More damage.

- So, I kind of landed in the middle... I'm not sure if that was the best. At 14 you get GH and still enough feats for some Kensai goodness. Of course if I relented and played a skinny human I could get the extra feat and enjoy more kensai goodness. Flavor or damage? If only they sold cosmetic race skins in the store....

I went 7bard, 12 fighter, 1fvs.
With only 7 levels of bard I can fascinate EE mobs, only some priest types make the save. Great for solo, but almost pointless in group play due to the amount of nuke spells, procs and cleaves going off.

Yes rogue levels for evasion is nice but it is totally possible to run EE quests without evasion.
With the Dwarven race build, I can drop FvS because no need for divine might.
Only issue with dwarf is the racials burn up so many AP, where as the 7/12/1 build requires no racials so can work with any class ( Shadar Kai for the cool hair... Sure )
This also frees up AP for Stalwart defender and Kensai tier 4 and 5 enhancements.

Fascinate is great, hard to save against and easy to get high enough ( think I even found a +17 random ring the other day )

Swashbuckler is cool fun, ok maybe not hardcore endgame uber, but good enough with the insta kills on EE raid casters to provide a specific roll.
Scroll healing, scroll rezzing to help out raid healers always a bonus.
Currently at level 28, crits over 1200 on helpless mobs, cleave greater clave, divine crusader cleave makes for a very fast EE quest zerger.
Best score of flurry crits was 12 in a row from 700-1200 damage in about 3 seconds
I love swashbucklers.

Absolute minimum levels of bard would be 7. I tried 5 and 6, wasn't very good for the builds I ran with.

[unbongwah]

- Inspire Heroics is the same as Greater Heroism... Inspire Excellence would be nice but its not uber awesome. And level 6 spells without a lot of CHA would not be that great. I will be counting on my fascinate to CC mobs. Thus 16 Bard does not look that inviting.

• Heroics: the saves bonus doesn't stack with Gtr / Song of Heroism, unfortunately; but the +4% Dodge bonus stacks w/everything, AFAIK. Also note that eElyd Edge turns Heroics into an AoE: swap it in to buff the party, then swap to your DPS weapon.
• Excellence: again, this is an unique stat bonus which stacks w/everything, AFAIK.
• lvl 6 spells: OID has no save (just a Spell Pen check), so it's useful against anything w/out SR. I usually take MCMW as my 2nd spell for extra heal oomph.

Whether this is more important / useful than ftr 6 depends on your focus. Basically, if you see yourself as a party support / CC toon, I think 16/2/2 is a better split for the extra buffs, MCMW, and OID; if you want to focus on melee DPS / tanking, 12/6/2 is the way to go for the two extra feats and defensive stance.

[jortann]

UPDATED OP with new ideas... Anyone else have any suggestions?

Thanks for all the help so far.

[jortann]

I'm getting ready to TR and was going to make a greensteel handaxe. Is LitII still the way to go? Or is there something better?

[Jhaeran]

I would probably go human or PDK for the feat/skill + amp but only spend enough AP in the tree for +damage, +10% amp or if stretching +1 stat and maybe enough to get 20% amp.

There is so many valid options in the other trees that spending a lot in the racial tree is tough.

the other alternative is to go dwarf and list as you said or drop a bunch into the racial for con to damage and follow the parody build

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm getting ready to TR and was going to make a greensteel handaxe. Is LitII still the way to go? Or is there something better?

Lit2 is still top dps, but triple positive isn't far behind, is more effective against undead, and is cheaper to make. Either one is a solid choice, but I prefer triple pos personally.

A few things I noticed. You can't take metamagics until you have 1 level of bard, so you won't be able to take empower healing at level 1. Also, you'll get 2 feats at level 3 – 1 regular and 1 fighter. I'd take extend somewhere just for the convenience since you'll have only 12 bard levels, but I hate short term buffs.

Altogether you'll get 15 feats – 7 regular, 1 human, 3 epic, and 4 fighter. The following seem pretty standard:

SWF
ISWF
GSWF
Imp crit
Power attack
Cleave
Great cleave
Overwhelming crit
Shield mastery
Improved shield mastery
Empower healing
Quicken

That leaves you with 3 feats. I'd consider improved shield bash, power critical (you'll actually get good use out of this on a swashbuckler), weapon focus/weapon specialization, dodge and maybe even mobility (only if these are needed, figure out what your dodge will be to find out), or epic reflexes (again, only if needed). Any of these would be good options, although some may be uneccessary (dodge, mobility, epic reflexes). So I'd figure out which of these you'll need to max your defenses and add in whatever dps options you prefer after that.

Taking rogue at level 1, the human feat is going to cause you problems since what you can take will be limited (no metamagics and 0 BAB). You will basically be limited to shield bash, improved shield bash, or dodge.

Your starting stats need to be adjusted for human as well. You've got 38 points spent currently.

[ddorimble]

Taking rogue at level 1, the human feat is going to cause you problems since what you can take will be limited (no metamagics and 0 BAB). You will basically be limited to shield bash, improved shield bash, or dodge.

Of the 'required' Feats, any of these could be taken:
SWF
Power Attack (Req Str 13+)
Cleave (Req Power Attack)

[CThruTheEgo]

Of the 'required' Feats, any of these could be taken:
SWF
Power Attack (Req Str 13+)
Cleave (Req Power Attack)

I was referring specifically to the human bonus feat, assuming SWF would be taken as the regular feat. But I thought power attack required 1 BAB. You are correct that it does not, so I'd take SWF and power at level 1 personally.