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  1. #21
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Like many things, DA was put in to reduce server load in hopes of reducing lag.
    Whenever I heard that uttered by "people" I always thought it was an oxymoron, "Dungeon Alert reduces lag"

    I don't know why people are upset now. We all hated Dungeon Alert when it was implemented. We all knew that red meant near impossible. I for one assumed that near impossible added difficulty to the setting. I was fine with it. My objective was to not have dungeon alert.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We have looooooooose and tentative plans to "take a look" at Dungeon Alert. But that's fairly "unscheduled" at this point, just something we want to do. We don't know what that means, so naturally we're hesitant to bring it up as a point of discussion ourselves -- basically, we're not really ready for the discussion. That doesn't mean we're unhappy for you guys to tell us things, but we don't want to setup an expectation that we're going to be able to focus on it (either the discussion or an actual change) in the near future.



    Yeah. This probably shouldn't happen.



    Probably also shouldn't happen!

    The only issue I have with it is in many quests it goes up for reasons that the players have no control over. (or in some cases is just not fair to players, even though there may be ways to prevent it)

    These kinds of situations need adjustment.



    and in general, this is why you guys shouldn't do across the board changes. You need to tweak individual dungeons when you add mechanics to the game.


    But don't get me wrong, I think DA is a good thing, and I like what you guys do.
    Thanks.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    Whenever I heard that uttered by "people" I always thought it was an oxymoron, "Dungeon Alert reduces lag"

    I don't know why people are upset now. We all hated Dungeon Alert when it was implemented. We all knew that red meant near impossible. I for one assumed that near impossible added difficulty to the setting. I was fine with it. My objective was to not have dungeon alert.
    Guess you don't remember those times when DA was turned off, lag was easily as bad as the worst of Mabar with rollbacks and hitching when trying to run through the marketplace.

  4. #24
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    Whenever I heard that uttered by "people" I always thought it was an oxymoron, "Dungeon Alert reduces lag"

    I don't know why people are upset now. We all hated Dungeon Alert when it was implemented. We all knew that red meant near impossible. I for one assumed that near impossible added difficulty to the setting. I was fine with it. My objective was to not have dungeon alert.
    I certainly always thought it was odd that in order to reduce lag they would basically deliberately make people play as if they were under the effects of severe lag... but my problem with DA is how in some quests it can occur even when you play as intended. I'm with you on this - DA exists, its there for meta-reasons and its not going anywhere. Therefore my objective is to play along, and not to cause DA.

    But if it happens no matter what you do, then that is wrong (as Varg has more or less confirmed).

    DA is a blunt instrument, like a Maul, but it is one that in this case appears to be made of balsa wood - in that it doesn't seem very effective (there would need to be a good couple of weeks with it off to see what happens, which would be a good idea if only to put the public argument to bed), and when you smack things with it you apparently also send splinters into all kinds of uncomfortable corners...
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  5. #25
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)

  6. #26
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_Gronker View Post
    This is one of the many, many reasons Dungeon Alert is a terrible implementation of a halfway decent idea. Dungeon Alert is supposed to represent an increased level of alertness, preparedness, and reaction by the monsters. But it doesn't. Instead, it's nonsensical buffs and a poorly designed slow effect.

    None of that stuff should slow characters down, nor should it increase monster saves. That's horrible design and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game is supposed to work (believe me, we've had several Devs with no idea how the game works or is supposed to).

    No, all DA should do is create minor terrain changes (barricades, locked doors that were previously unlocked, etc), and (if appropriate to the creatures) spawn some random traps. Give the monsters a bonus to hit if there are several on one target to represent increased coordination of attacks.

    REMOVE DA initiation when dealing with mobs that are unintelligent. Like the bat swarms in Coal Chamber. They aren't coordinating a **** thing. Also, you might look into figuring out how to implement the Swarm from the mother game for some creatures.

    But as it currently stands, Dungeon Alert does not do what it is supposed to represent, it occurs when it should not, and it's poorly designed overall.

    Remove it, fix it, then put it back in.
    First of all if you want the game to go to s*** instantly then remove DA from it. I certainly wont hang around when every PUG and every group is pure "run to the end then kill" talk about lousy game play. And the lag will be like nothing anyone has ever seen before (well besides those who were here when DA didn't exist) , as entire servers are chugging away trying to keep up with every single pug causing massive activated mobs for the equivalent of red alert +++

    How is spawning traps out of nowhere is any less an abstraction than harried? Simulating grapling effects and mobs trying to slow you down by grabbing you as you pass? Harried is completely believable if you've got any sense of how things work in real life.

    Even the word harried is directly equatable to the situation as someone who is being pursued is said to be "harried" by the foe nipping at their heels at every turn. The word is DIRECTLY derived from warfare/combat. This should be completely plausible to anyone who can operate a computer on their own.

    DA like any video game mechanism uses believable or plausible ideas (that monsters would raise an alarm and prepare for you, cooperate, or try to slow you down until others can reinforce them) along with what in game development circles is known as "abstraction" that is representing something more complicated with something less complicated.

    Game AI doesn't have the sophistication to cut players off at the pass or anticipate where they are going (and in an MMO's case we don't have the server resources for the scripting even if they wanted to try) Harried is an abstraction of something 100% believable: grappling or grabbing the person as they pass by.

    It's only implausible to those who selectively deem it so, because they wish to devolve the game down to it's most simplistic and mindless level of "run to the end kill everything loot repeat".

    Dungeon alert does something very important besides all that; it allow the quest designers to not make every room lock down until you kill everything in it. This results in much better quests than linear mindless quests where every room has locked door that is only opened this way.

    Please: New Dev's understand why DA is essential to DDO's core design, read forum archives from before it's implementation that consisted of lots of people complaining about how the game was massively laggy and how it's not fun to only ever run to the end and kill everything, and why it was implemented, do not listen to the self serving "all I want to do it repeat the highest XP dungeon over and over quicker and quicker" subset of the playerbase. They will say absolutely anything to accomplish this goal, including destroying the game for everyone else.
    Last edited by IronClan; 03-31-2015 at 01:10 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    just curious, does this also include slayer zones? in particular, im thinking Wheloon slayer where you can have instant DA just walking out of a quest since that's the most problematic area I know of.
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  8. #28
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    Whenever I heard that uttered by "people" I always thought it was an oxymoron, "Dungeon Alert reduces lag"

    I don't know why people are upset now. We all hated Dungeon Alert when it was implemented. We all knew that red meant near impossible. I for one assumed that near impossible added difficulty to the setting. I was fine with it. My objective was to not have dungeon alert.
    I'm just the messenger on this one. I hate it too.

    I posted earlier what I think a better version would be.

  9. #29
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    But it does affect Fort Save. Consider a couple melee run off and trigger an alert. The additional HP from con is small, but the additional fort save is huge. The melee have no trouble, but the necro-spec'd caster (arcane or divine) is hosed...

    What it should be:
    + spot and listen because they are on alert
    + DW / defensive buffs like resist energy cast on them because they have time to prepare
    + TS (same)
    + Amor class (time to put more on)

    What it should not be:
    - Any buff that is not a normal spell... what in any realm give +24 to a stat? This is an example of going to plaid.
    - Additional immunities that are not ones cast using normal spells. (And they need to actually be dispel-able. But that is another broken system itself.)

    Now consider looking on the positive side instead of making everything punative:

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    The bonus starts at xx%. Anytime there is a DA that % goes down.
    - green alert loses .5% per second
    - yellow alert loses 1% per second
    - orange alert loses 2% per second
    - red alert loses 4 % per second

    Assumptions:
    1. Don't worry about reworking dungeons before doing this to prevent spurious DA. Get to them when you can under the normal review.
    2. People can still zerg and run till red and then kill or whatever their preferred method is.
    3. People who go slower and either use real stealth to not alert mobs or kill it all as they go get rewarded for the extra time spent.
    4. The starting % needs to be high enough that the extra time spent not getting DA generates the same xp/min that zerging through red DA and doing more quests does. Or you could make it higher, which would encourage less zerging and less DA, thus less load on the servers.
    Last edited by redoubt; 03-31-2015 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    wow - thanks for the information! Triggered effect? Symbols and Wards?

  11. #31
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    Wow, Varg. Is it Christmas already? :P
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  12. #32
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    Thank you for sharing.

    Remove the saving throws part as the extra stats already give that and +12 from stats to fort and reflex saves is already considerable but not fully making casters unable to land anything.
    Up the movement speed part to +100% or as high as you can as +20% isnt much.

    Note, I dont play a caster currently but it should be plain for all to see that +28 DC from red alert is far too disfavorable to casters compared to the small nuisanse a cleaving barb encounters from red alert (hint, almost none).
    Last edited by mikarddo; 03-31-2015 at 04:57 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Btw, the +16 ac and to hit is almost surely from back when ac was a d20 roll and thus has not been updated with the ac pass. It quite likely should be 160 ac and alot of prr to be of similar value tø the old +16ac.

    If thats changed so neither casters nor melee can function properly in high DA its much more reasonable. Leaving only casters to really suffer is bad design though and seems unintended but rather an oversight in the ac system update.
    Last edited by mikarddo; 03-31-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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  15. #35
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Sharing is caring, some clarifying information on Dungeon Alert after looking more closely:

    Monsters only get a buff to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), which means that under Dungeon Alert they currently aren't getting Wisdom bonuses (nor INT, nor CHA), which further means their Will saves won't go up as much as Reflex or Fortitude. (And monster Casters generally aren't getting increased DCs for spells.)

    Dungeon Alert monster buffs can include (at their strongest):
    • STR, DEX, CON: Up to +24
    • AC, To-Hit: Up to +16
    • Fortification: Up to +100%
    • Saving Throws: Up to +16 (not counting the indirect ability score buff to saves, which won't affect Will)
    • Skills: Up to +24
    • Movement speed: Up to +20%
    • True Sight
    • Immunity to certain triggered effects (I'm not 100% sure which things this affects)
    Could you also add ignores all physical resistance above 50 so that heavy armor users take as much dmg as casters and light armor that lose displacement. This would prevent heavy armor wearers from being able to zerg.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    just curious, does this also include slayer zones? in particular, im thinking Wheloon slayer where you can have instant DA just walking out of a quest since that's the most problematic area I know of.
    Heck, even before you step out of a quest! Friends in Low Places and Thrill of the Hunt can both give insta-red alert as soon as you start the end fight, and Lesson in Deception can aggro stuff from the third section (post-sewer) while still in the first section. While I don't mind DA from zerging or bad aggroing (accidentally shooting something across the way, for instance) insta-red alert that no amount of careful playing can prevent just plain *sucks*. Can you put these on hte list of "probably shouldn't happen" also? (Which hopefully means that "something will be done about it someday" *g* )
    "Ignorance killed the cat, sir; curiosity was framed."
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Actually, Split oozes count as one mob still.
    They count as one mob for the kill count. But they count as multiple mobs with regards to DA. (Kind of like mephits summoned by other mephits, or shadows summoned by casters, or dretches summoned by pieces of paper carried by snarky Harpers, all don't add to the kill count).
    "Ignorance killed the cat, sir; curiosity was framed."
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  18. #38
    Community Member Demsac's Avatar
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    Is this the part where you go April Fool's! ?

  19. #39
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    Under the harshest red alerts, red-names will become immune to all but the base damage of weapons. Is this under the 'triggered effects' part?

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