Page 7 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 242
  1. #121
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

    I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?
    NO. Absolutely not. When you finish the game and you can do it all then why continue playing the game?

    - Because new content with new limits comes out? (as some posters here suggest) And how often does this happen? Every 2-3 months? So, players reach the top level in a week and then for the rest 7 weeks they leave the game? I don't see how they would keep coming back for the next update...

    - Because that limit is so hard to get time wise that new content with new limits will be out before getting to it? (as some posters here suggest) Then that is an extremelly boring game that you keep doing the exact same thing using the exact same method till you finally make some progress. I don't see how players would be able to endure that grind.

    - Because your friends are playing the game? Sure, that is a valid reason. But there are other games that offer that AND other stuff. Why not just switch to those games at the earliest convenience?

    The correct answer is because you can never reach a point when you can do it all.
    I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you.
    You are confused as to what kinds of "improvements" there are:
    - There is the improvement of character power
    - There is the improvement of gear
    - There is the improvement of time spent
    If a game keeps raising the limit on the 3 above improvements, then it is indeed taunting you.

    However, there is the improvement of playstyle, tactics, communication. Thank god, DDO has an extremelly large variation when it comes to this. Every build has different playstyle, every quest has different tactics, every party has different communication. A game that lets you sit at the top of character power, gear and time spent but still does not provide you with a good chance of success is not taunting you. It's simply challenging you to find better tactics and communicate better with your party members. That can never get old because you run with new party members each time.
    So it's ok if an endgame quest (or any quest really) has a difficulty level that is NEVER a sure victory no matter how much godlike your gear is.

    And with the above in mind, there is NO END GAME in a game. The end of the game is when you stop playing. And if you want to call something an endgame, that is when you have all the gear and all the pastlives and you keep TRing playing quests in the full spectrum of levels trying to become a better player or trying to make others better players.

    Finally, take the example of a game that has no gear or power progression like chess. There sure is a progression: A new player can never defeat veteran players. As you play more and more of the game and encounter higher level players, you become better at the game? Do your pawns become better equipped or gain better abilities? No. Simply you become more skilled at playing the game. And even when you are at the top of the list and have beaten every other player, a chess match is still not 100% success because different tactics, different minds. Similarly, a game that with each new gear upgrade offers improved difficulty like Dark Souls is bound to not become boring by players that like it. Not saying that the difficulty needs to be as high as Dark Souls, but the point is that with each character progression comes difficulty progression. So the power level of the character is ALWAYS several steps behind content power level. And the only way to beat content is by playing smarter.
    My main server is Khyber. Have toons in almost every server for favor purposes. The Faltouts

  2. #122
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,474

    Default

    I still see a lot of people confusing endgame with "end of the game". They are not the same.

    Endgame means the final stage in the game (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endgame). The final stage in the game may be played endlessly. End of the game is one specific moment in time where the game stops.

  3. #123
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I still see a lot of people confusing endgame with "end of the game". They are not the same.

    Endgame means the final stage in the game (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endgame). The final stage in the game may be played endlessly. End of the game is one specific moment in time where the game stops.
    The definition you provide:
    1. Does not mention anything about being played endlessly.
    2. Does not apply to MMORPG games. There is no "main reduction of forces" or "final stages" in such a game.
    My main server is Khyber. Have toons in almost every server for favor purposes. The Faltouts

  4. #124
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    6,821

    Default

    Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

    Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already said so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.

    But seriously, go back a page and reread every response to Lynnabel. Repeatedly the issues of lack of challenge, quickly beating content upon release, and a lack of things to do with a capped character get referenced. If new content was beat on Normal shortly after release, but Hard and especially Elite had some kind of learning/development curve then all our content would have much longer legs.

    As long as our game's content continues to be designed with this philosophy of "Take from them nothing, and give to them... EVERYTHING!" then the status quo will remain: more people leaving than arriving, more people sampling than staying.

    Turbine, it's well past time to stop lowering the bar for your competitors. I wouldn't even call "The Forest" a competitor in terms of gameplay, but it's still taken more of my playtime than DDO since I installed it a month ago.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 07-30-2016 at 10:29 AM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  5. #125
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Faltout View Post
    The definition you provide:
    1. Does not mention anything about being played endlessly.
    Notice I used the word "may". The definition leaves open whether the final stage is finite or infinite. In DDOs case it may be infinite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faltout View Post
    2. Does not apply to MMORPG games. There is no "main reduction of forces" or "final stages" in such a game.
    Since DDO is not chess, I'm (evidently) not referring to the definition that only applies to chess, but to "the final stage of some action or process". That definition is broad and can be applied to many processes/actions, including MMORPG games. You'd still have to define what final stage is for the specific process you consider. In MMORPGs typically the final stage is defined as playing at the level cap.

    Either way, regardless of how you exactly define endgame, it's important not to confuse endgame and end of the game with each other.
    Last edited by Forzah; 07-30-2016 at 08:46 AM.

  6. #126
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    3,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Faltout View Post
    When you finish the game and you can do it all then why continue playing the game?
    If you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? I personally happen to think DDO is a lot of fun, which is a lot of why I play. Some of why I play, though, it because I know that my efforts will eventually get me to the end, and I can look back and say that I actually won an online game.

    My answer to "what's the point?" posts will always be "because it's fun."
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 07-30-2016 at 08:54 AM.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

    "Have you tried preproccing feat directory?"

  7. #127
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    17,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

    Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.
    If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

    You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


    More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
    If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
    Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!

  8. #128
    Community Member legendkilleroll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    746

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post

    More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
    If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
    Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!
    Typical you would say something like this.

    The only caving in that's been done, is towards the casuals, new player, lesser skilled etc to make elite the standard

    How you can say the opposite I dont know, its called elite, its about time that name actually meant something

  9. #129
    Community Member Blastyswa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If you can't ever reach the end, why continue playing the game? I personally happen to think DDO is a lot of fun, which is a lot of why I play. Some of why I play, though, it because I know that my efforts will eventually get me to the end, and I can look back and say that I actually won an online game.

    My answer to "what's the point?" posts will always be "because it's fun."
    My problem is that reaching the end has become too easy. I have first life characters with mostly BTA gear I've pulled on my main that are fairly effective in LE Shroud; I could boost their power more by acquiring additional BTC gear, getting a full ender set, or grinding out some past lives (When I say first life, I mean not even ETRs) but what's the point if I can already play the highest difficulty quest? I would love if the new update (Or the one after that, but relatively soon) would include either a reaper type difficulty, or simply vastly more difficult quests. I remember in other MMO's my groups would all log on the day before attempting a raid, and spend an hour or two just discussing our roles and strategies in the upcoming raid. We would then proceed to do that raid maybe 20-30 times, failing each time, and each time having to use mic callouts, coordination, and brutal decisionmaking, as everyone wasn't able to carry around stacks of 100 6 second cooldown resurrection spells. after 20-30 runs, we'd finally pull a completion, and we'd done all of this not necessarily for the loot, although the loot was a significant step up from our previous gear, but because it was fun and challenging.

    Conversely, I make daily runs of LE Shroud on Cannith.
    Dazling of Cannith

  10. #130
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    13,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

    You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


    More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
    If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
    Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!
    thank you for suggesting a new insanely difficulty setting for most players that already rollover elite and suggest no good reward for completing a severely increased challenge. than turn around and say if elite becomes too much for you to handle at level that max favor should be granted on the easiest difficulty setting. sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  11. #131
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    13,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Everything I've read over ~the last 15ish posts is a glaring example of how allowing (if not out right intentionally causing) the "highest" difficulty setting to become the "standard" difficulty setting. There's no progression from Normal to Hard to Elite - instead there's Elite, and you go down to Hard or Normal for some extra fast XP after all the Elite XP is used up.

    Want to return some challenge and difficulty to the game? Want players to have something to aspire towards? Start kicking their asses again. Make us swap down to Normal for the easy wins, let Hard be an actual description instead of mearly a title, and make Elite genuinely harder than Hard. Of course that won't happen, ~Sev's already so quite plainly: players are used to Eliting their way through the game and DDO decision makers don't want that to change.

    But seriously, go back a page and reread every response to Lynnabel. Repeatedly the issues of lack of challenge, quickly beating content upon release, and a lack of things to do with a capped character get referenced. If new content was beat on Normal shortly after release, but Hard and especially Elite had some kind of learning/development curve then all our content would have much longer legs.

    As long as our game's content continues to be designed with this philosophy of "Take from them nothing, and give to them... EVERYTHING!" then the status quo will remain: more people leaving than arriving, more people sampling than staying.

    Turbine, it's well past time to stop lowering the bar for your competitors. I wouldn't even call "The Forest" a competitor in terms of gameplay, but it's still taken more of my playtime than DDO since I installed it a month ago.
    if only we could rebalance the difficulty settings...
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  12. #132
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    6,821

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!

    You will also need to change Renown Rewards to be much closer on Normal to Elite and when overlevelling quests because otherwise only the Ubers will be able to level their Guilds!


    More importantly DON'T CAVE IN TO SAID UBERS!
    If they want an Extreme Difficulty setting then you can give them that setting without hurting the rest of us - Make it hard enough that even Triple Completionists require a Group to actually complete it but give it NO EXTRA XP, Loot, Favour or Renown above what is got for Elite {OK maybe add some loot Rewards that are ONLY USABLE IN THAT DIFFICULTY but make sure you don't invalidate said difficulty with said loot}.
    Tell them that this difficulty setting is there for the Challenge they say they want and that's it!
    You should've left me on ignore.

    Favor worked just fine for many years during a much healthier stage of the games life with people leveling on Normal difficulties and returning later for Elite Favor/TP. You're no spokesman for any sort of influentially supported perspective, get over your self already.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  13. #133
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    2,611

    Default Endgame: part duex

    On endgame part duex

    Looks like the doomsayers have moved the goalposts
    But now the cry is not maintenance, but endgame

    So it sounds like a rebirth,?*
    With a movie in the making

    Like the cycle of life and death
    That which we experience daily in game

    In the notion of rebirth
    Is ascension

    What you would call a triple completionist
    In ddo terms...

    So that is the endgame goal
    And to live there
    Perpetually on an ascended state

    So we practice rebirth
    Til we get it right
    And escape the cycle
    Become ascended

    So the doom has given birth to the bloom


    Notes1
    This would be an aphorism

    Notes2
    You're doing fine
    Give you another year
    Kil Glory
    30 alchemist
    HOW
    Sarlona

  14. #134
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Easy: Turbine as a stand alone studio made a sweet D&D Online game. Then WB bought the studio, and apearantly decided offering something unique in the MMO world was bad and took steps to make this game more like every other game. It seems the (now former) players who liked the (now former) uniqueness also took some steps... (away from the game)
    I'm not sure Turbine was ever completely standalone. Weren't they in the suite of Microsoft-preferred developers when they were making Asheron's Call? I seem to recall a huge tie-in there with Microsoft at about the time Bill Gates was going through his conversion to game-friendly after he realized how much games had helped Windows 95 catch the Mac.

    Edit: the biggest problem with DDO at this point, in my opinion, is that it has gotten away from D&D and become more like a superhero game. It doesn't have the feel of an authentic D&D experience any more after the first few levels. Korthos was always the strange outlier as it was, with Sahuagin being the baddies and all the Steampunk Cannith stuff introducing people to the game. Then you got back to recognizable D&D in Stormreach in most of the content. This recognizable content lasted right up to Demon Queen at 12.

    Now with the power creep the superhero stuff starts fairly early maybe as early as 9 or 10 with the new rand gen loot and classes available (Artificer/Warlock) and never lets go after that until mini-Thors are wreaking havoc on the content by epic levels.

    I'm going to postulate that the mini-Thor equivalents in 2009 and 2010 were the Warforged Sorcs and Human Favored Souls and for some reason all the development since then has been to bring the rest of the pop up to their levels, actually surpassing them by quite a large amount at this point. I know I'm ignoring the Exploiterr builds in all of this but everybody knew they were an outlier that some people liked to play because they were individually powerful and could solo content that very few other class/multi-classes could.

    Why didn't Turbine just leave things as they were, with more class availability but not hyper-powerful in the process? People who needed the individual power would have kept playing the few builds that could do that and the rest of us could have kept playing normal builds, without worrying about power creep driving us towards the most powerful builds and classes on a consistent basis.

    You can't cater just to powergamers without driving everybody else out eventually. And the powergamers will burn out just like everybody else unless you keep creeping power and content towards them.
    Last edited by KoobTheProud; 07-30-2016 at 11:35 AM.

  15. #135
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    3,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    On endgame part duex

    Looks like the doomsayers have moved the goalposts
    But now the cry is not maintenance, but endgame

    So it sounds like a rebirth,?*
    With a movie in the making

    Like the cycle of life and death
    That which we experience daily in game

    In the notion of rebirth
    Is ascension

    What you would call a triple completionist
    In ddo terms...

    So that is the endgame goal
    And to live there
    Perpetually on an ascended state

    So we practice rebirth
    Til we get it right
    And escape the cycle
    Become ascended

    So the doom has given birth to the bloom


    Notes1
    This would be an aphorism

    Notes2
    You're doing fine
    Give you another year
    This looks a lot like a poem and inspiration struck me, so here is my response.

    Why do all games need progression based elements?
    Even in ones where it "isn’t quite relevant?"
    It's because fun's abstract
    But player power can't backtrack
    And character stagnation's just inelegant.

    But it's clear that the in-game reality
    Is designed forward with non-linearity.
    The game gives you a choice,
    But both sides have a voice
    'Cause this endgame is only formality.

    The freedom’s a guide rail, not a cage
    that the metagame is meant to engage.
    If you're not having fun,
    with your past lives all done,
    Try content you've left back with age.

    But seriously though, I'm of the opinion that the answer to every question that starts with "But why?" should be answered with "Because it's fun."

    "But why is there a goal to reach for?" "Because it's fun."
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

    "Have you tried preproccing feat directory?"

  16. #136
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    This looks a lot like a poem and inspiration struck me, so here is my response.

    Why do all games need progression based elements?
    Even in ones where it "isn’t quite relevant?"
    It's because fun's abstract
    But player power can't backtrack
    And character stagnation's just inelegant.

    But it's clear that the in-game reality
    Is designed forward with non-linearity.
    The game gives you a choice,
    But both sides have a voice
    'Cause this endgame is only formality.

    The freedom’s a guide rail, not a cage
    that the metagame is meant to engage.
    If you're not having fun,
    with your past lives all done,
    Try content you've left back with age.

    But seriously though, I'm of the opinion that the answer to every question that starts with "But why?" should be answered with "Because it's fun."

    "But why is there a goal to reach for?" "Because it's fun."
    I like the rap here.

    That said, the primary problem is that there's not enough new content to enjoy old builds in and we all know the old content like the back of our hands at this point, making it not challenging or interesting in most cases.

    I recently TR'd a Warlock and ran her through Korthos complete, the Guard Jung/Waterworks series and into The Seal of Shan-to-Kor. I knew every twist of those quests from the many times i ran them back in the day and I found myself wanting to speed through them as fast as I could despite having started with the inclination to sight-see some and remember the good old days. Then I took her into the Catacombs and she was very OP for them because EB Chain is just frighteningly OP against linear content with lots of mobs.

    I don't even know what I want to do with her next because I know all the content she's going to go through very well. The initial plan was to take her from Seal of Shan-to-Kor to Tangleroot Gorge but I don't want to get into the same situation there that I had in Seal and regret running it half way through and just want it to be over.

    This leads into the inevitable question of at what level is running things with her going to be fun and why? Am I just running this life to run another one after it? What am I going to do with her in the next life if not what I was so ambivalent about in this life?

    It's a DDO existential question for me and absent significant new content to TR through I suspect it will lead to another long absence from the game as I go do something else, only this time without much certainty that the game will still be here when I return.

  17. #137
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    17,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    thank you for suggesting a new insanely difficulty setting for most players that already rollover elite and suggest no good reward for completing a severely increased challenge. than turn around and say if elite becomes too much for you to handle at level that max favor should be granted on the easiest difficulty setting. sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.
    You know full well that's not what I said!

    I am advocating for a specific difficulty setting completely separate from N/H/E for Completionists and those on Maxed out Multi-Life Toons who can cope with it!

    This would have no bearing on Elite whatsoever!

    The argument about Favour and Elite was specifically aimed at the insistence by some people on making Elite more difficult!

    These are two completely separate arguments that by conflating you are deliberately and blatantly twisting my words!


    A Challenge difficulty set up to Challenge the very best should NOT be given extra rewards because:
    1) That makes it a required difficulty for everyone to try and reach whether they want to or not, whether they can cope with it or not!
    and
    2) The Loot given in it would invariably invalidate it over time as people got more and more of it!

    Challenge should be there for Challenge Sake alone - If people WANT to be Challenged they'll run it whether there's extra rewards for it or not!

  18. #138
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post

    Challenge should be there for Challenge Sake alone - If people WANT to be Challenged they'll run it whether there's extra rewards for it or not!
    Again the same argument? The top difficulty should be more rewarding and it is obvious why.

    If casual is equally rewarding people would just farm casual for gear and XP and those who took the time to try to beat "elite" would be left behind.

    Before the huge leap in power we have seen that was the case. EH-EN daily could net more XP/min at a time when most power came from the accumulation of PL/ePLs. Now anyone can streak 20-30 on a borelock, but that was not always the case. Not to speak of the absolutely ridiculous ENx20 raid trains.

    In case no one has noticed, the achievements section of the game is completely dead. It was always a small club but now the people leading the longest standing threads are gone without anyone to replace them. If that's not a testimony to the level of challenge in the game, I don't know what is.

  19. #139
    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,945

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    What is endgame if not challenging material in which to advance?

    I actually vastly prefer the current system where the game starts you at absolute rock bottom with nothing, and points you toward the highest of the high with an assurance that, if you work hard, you actually can make it to the top. I personally think that, if there were always something to improve on, it would feel like the game was just taunting you. Shouldn't there be an end to the game, a tangible level where you actually can do it all?
    This is why I love games with endless mazes like the D3 rift system. There's always that carrot of more difficult content but people are able to 'stop' at any point saying "This is as reasonably far as I can get and I'm okay with that."

    By contrast by having raids or groups with a static challenge cap you end up with some of the population disappointed that there's no greater challenge available, another portion of the population frustrated that they don't have the time/skill/logistics to do that content and are forced into lower stuff. The number of people for whom the content is 'just right(tm)' is quite small.

    The brilliance of an endless maze with scaling difficulty is that you can challenge yourself on it instead of having to force challenge on yourself. In DDO if you want a challenge you have to gimp yourself significantly ~or~ try to solo content that is seriously not meant to be (LE shroud for example). The problem is that there is no greater reward system in place for this. If I do LE Search and Rescue with my super OP warlock build, I get the same reward as if I try it with a gimp battle cleric.

    Challenge is ultimately relative. Who should you balance the difficulty around? Flash, arguably one of the best video game players of all time? Me, a former competitive gamer but now retired father? My wife who will randomly go afk during the middle of boss fights because she thinks now would be a good time to water her flowers?

    Who do you balance challenge around?

    By offering an endlessly scaling challenge maze and grafting some sort of reward structure onto it (AA's) you accomplish -many- things in DDO.

    - You give people at the end game a -reason- to stay at level 30 other then to bang out those 21 dungeons you need to do to TR.
    - You give people something to ~do~ other then one of two raids that still offer any semblance of an upgrade.
    - You give people a ladder they can challenge themselves against that always gives them something for their time an effort.
    - You give people something to develop bragging rights over. "Woot, maze floor 67! New record!"
    - You give yourself breathing room to work on good content to accompany this endless maze instead of always feeling pressured to try to outpace how fast the community devours new things.

    And so on.

    So yes, I do enjoy 'being done.' But with an endless maze -I- get to decide when that is and not the game saying, "Sorry, we have nothing more for you. Go play some more HOTS now or something."

  20. #140
    Community Member Baktiotha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    If you do this Devs then you'd better change Favour to give maximum at Normal Difficulty or you'll lose an absolute tonne of players!
    This is not correct.

    I don't even see how it is possible for a person with a 2010 join date to think that their opinion mirrors the perspective of new players. And, I can only speak for myself but the opinion certainly does not mirror those of the established players that I know. And, considering that one of the accounts I play dates to 2006 I encounter a number of established players.

    One of the frequent observations on the boards is that DDO is too easy. The observation that players tackle everything on elite and only quest hard or normal after registering their streak exactly mirrors my experience.

    Another frequent observation is that a number of quests go unplayed. The reasons are many but one of the most obvious is that they are not needed for XP.

    A third frequent observation is that it is difficult to find groups. That is because soloing is so easy that people just don't bother.

    Pushing the difficulty of quests changes every one of those dynamics. DDO is no longer too easy, players opt to play other quests instead of trying to take on familiar ones that are now very challenging, players opt to group more often in order to take on harder challenges.

    My personal opinion is that Normal should have the current Hard difficulty, Hard should have the current Elite difficulty, and Elite should be bumped another notch or two.

    Of course, all of our opinions are only that and the indications from the developers are that there is no plan to change. However, I have serious doubts that making a change would lead to any significant loss of players and it might actually have the opposite effect since part of the enjoyment in games like DDO is the challenge.

Page 7 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload