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  1. #1
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    Default A few observations regarding Reaper

    Reaper has arrived. Is it everything you thought it was going to be?

    I ran a few Vale quests R1 and R2 just after the update, pugs looking to see what it was all about. Ran a few solo after that. Ran a few elite quests to hit 20 then took a couple of days off to mull the options. TR'd into to an auralock and solo'd R1 where available to mid levs.

    R1 is the new elite (big surprise).
    Reaper bonus to 'normal' XP gives more than enough to level as fast or faster than EBB, plus you don't have to worry about busting boxes or going down that optional hall to look for the possible rare spawn. I've lost a lot of 'normal' XP from holding level to do all the quests at Reaper, including skipping a whole set of quests at a level once I found out how the actual Reaper over-lev penalty worked.
    Since Reaper will be the new norm, the Reaper trees represent significant power creep.
    What modifies Reaper XP payouts? The RXP varied between toons (dual box piked for free Reaper XP).
    Reaper XP seems to be accumulating at a reasonable rate. I'd expect 1-3 TRs would take care of that grind.
    Reapers aren't really a problem on R1 or R2, while the quantity of champions sometimes is.
    Reaper effects that pass through the walls of rooms with unopened doors, is this WAI?
    Reaper hasn't improved the lag situation.
    Despite being robustly broken, hirelings are relevant again because of Reaper.
    Reaper made my hireling folder relevant again.
    Because of the arbitrary nature of Reaper spawns, depending on the quest it is easy and beneficial to simply recall/restart instead of trying to power through a "bad" instance.
    The orange(?) champs spawn a lot, drop almost nothing in the way of rewards. Why so orange? Are they angry? Are they Russian bodybuilders?
    Champs can be hard to distinguish from normal mobs, e.g. indecipherable crowns. WAI?
    Auralock doesn't work as well as a chain-blaster. Just kite in reverse 'til everything is dead (including your hired healer, in all likelyhood).
    Once the (inevitable) Reaper Otto's Boxes arrive in the store, you cannot call them "Rotto's Boxes", I've trademarked "Rotto".
    Putting in an over-lev lockout is the right choice from the 'stop cheezy farming' standpoint, I am pleasantly surprised by that. Still, it seems like the smart move would be to put the lock-out on XP and loot only, and let people run the quests 'for fun' if they want (what a concept). Same thought for solo quests.



    To everyone making some "Don't Fear the Reaper" joke, BOC called, they want their meme back.
    And for the record, I don't fear the reaper, the reaper fears me.
    Last edited by Pyed-Pyper; 02-11-2017 at 09:24 AM. Reason: clarity

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Reaper bonus to 'normal' XP gives more than enough to level as fast or faster than EBB
    You get full bravery bonus on reaper.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You get full bravery bonus on reaper.
    Was going to say this...

    Reaper is about 10% more XP than Elite...if both are done Bravery Bonus Style.

    reaper XP really jumps up when you repeat the big XP quest.

    Shadow Crypt on Reaper and then Elite...wooooo
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  4. #4
    Community Member airbornerangers's Avatar
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    Reaper XP seems to be accumulating at a reasonable rate. I'd expect 1-3 TRs would take care of that grind
    my main character has over 60 heroic tr's all ready! more needed? this is the one thing that sticks out in my mind as the most punishing for old timers still playing, we stayed for the soon, we stayed for 4 years of heroic shroud as end-game, we been here since week one when you gave us level 2 vorps then took away, now my main need 1-3 tr's to get enough xp? i know its my choice, but is it really a choice? i put all that effort into him, now i should stop and not make him as powerful as i can?
    no choice at all but wheres the hamster wheel!
    argo thtasselhoff completionist
    khyber gerty lvl 16 cleric mephistoles lvl 16 sorc

  5. #5
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangers View Post
    no choice at all but wheres the hamster wheel!
    There's a obvious choice that you are missing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You get full bravery bonus on reaper.
    "Normal" was meant to distinguish blue-bar XP from Reaper XP, not a reference to a difficulty setting.

    -

    My point is that by running Reaper 1, one can level faster and more easily than by running EBB. I suspect a properly suitable Reaper build can run much higher difficulties with greater ease and speed. I was just half-@ssing an e-z button melee build to see what was what. Once the Reaper trees start getting filled out, it is only going to get easier.

    The power creep is both unnecessary and self-defeating.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    "Normal" was meant to distinguish blue-bar XP from Reaper XP, not a reference to a difficulty setting.
    I'm not sure I follow.

    You originally wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Reaper bonus to 'normal' XP gives more than enough to level as fast or faster than EBB
    Both elite and reaper give the exact same bravery bonus to "normal" xp.

    EDIT: Also, unrelated, but it's possible that ransack, conquest, ingenious and observation apply to reaper xp, so you may not want to skip breaking boxes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangers View Post
    Reaper XP seems to be accumulating at a reasonable rate. I'd expect 1-3 TRs would take care of that grind
    my main character has over 60 heroic tr's all ready! more needed? this is the one thing that sticks out in my mind as the most punishing for old timers still playing, we stayed for the soon, we stayed for 4 years of heroic shroud as end-game, we been here since week one when you gave us level 2 vorps then took away, now my main need 1-3 tr's to get enough xp? i know its my choice, but is it really a choice? i put all that effort into him, now i should stop and not make him as powerful as i can?
    no choice at all but wheres the hamster wheel!
    The auto-save didn't, so there's a big chunk of my original post missing. I was too depressed about Reaper to type it again, so just left it out.

    ANOTHER long grind is not what I wanted. By adding the power creep and XP bonuses to Reaper, they are admitting that Reaper isn't good enough to stand on its own merits. By adding the power creep and XP grind, they are saying that it will be mandatory, regardless of any claims to the contrary.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm not sure I follow.

    You originally wrote:Both elite and reaper give the exact same bravery bonus to "normal" xp.

    EDIT: Also, unrelated, but it's possible that ransack, conquest, ingenious and observation apply to reaper xp, so you may not want to skip breaking boxes.
    What I am trying to say is that you get more XP by running Reaper vs EBB (not sure where I said the above). I took a couple of screenshots but am having trouble uploading the comparison image. I encourage you to make a comparison yourself, maybe I'm missing something.

    Tear of Dhaakan, lev 7 toon, (zero completions):
    first time completing elite +80%
    bravery bonus +20%
    streak continues +50%

    vs

    Tear of Dhaakan, lev 7 toon, (zero completions):
    first time completing reaper +120%
    bravery bonus +30%
    streak continues +50%

    I am getting more heroic XP for running Reaper than by running elite. Run every Reaper-capable quest at-lev, you'll be banking heroic XP.

    -

    Also, you make a good point. Breaking boxes and other mundane quest objectives be good for RXP. We really don't know at the moment. My hunch is there is some sort of fractional formula based on the standard quest XP. If that is the case, most typical quest bonuses will get lost as rounding errors, but I would like to see what the actual answer is.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    What I am trying to say is that you get more XP by running Reaper vs EBB (not sure where I said the above).
    Right, yep, we're all good. The original phrasing was a little ambiguous is all.

    "Reaper bonus to 'normal' XP gives more than enough to level as fast or faster than EBB"

    I read this to be saying that reaper without bravery is as good or better than elite with bravery. But they both get bravery so of course reaper is as good or better. It's clearly better, obviously so, to the point that it isn't even worth mentioning.

    But now on re-read I think you were talking about the time it takes to complete. As in, even though reaper is worth more xp, it takes longer. But not by much on low skulls, such that reaper is still as fast or faster than elite from a strict xp/minute perspective.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    ....
    But now on re-read I think you were talking about the time it takes to complete. As in, even though reaper is worth more xp, it takes longer. But not by much on low skulls, such that reaper is still as fast or faster than elite from a strict xp/minute perspective.
    Yes, that's it. I don't have any numbers but it feels like R1 overpays, so sure the quests might take longer but that's more than compensated by the overly generous (heroic) XP payout. Given the power creep from Reaper trees, R1 will be easier and faster than current EBB.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Given the power creep from Reaper trees, R1 will be easier [...]
    Well, yes and no. Some levels will be strictly harder because they used to allow cores or tier 5s but now will not.

    For example, Small Problem (or all of Carnival) used to be run at 7, opening up ML6 cores. But running @ 5 on reaper will make it tougher. And VON5 / Tempest Spine used to allow tier 5s because you would normally be level 12, but running them @ 10 means no tier 5s. (And no ML12 cores for pure builds.) Or having ML18 cores for Vale quests. etc...

    But in general, yeah, agreed.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Reaper XP seems to be accumulating at a reasonable rate. I'd expect 1-3 TRs would take care of that grind.
    Id have to digging to find the thread now, but wasnt it just last week someone posted the math and demonstrated it would take 53 Reincarnations to get all the Reaper stuff? Or is those last 50 Reincarnations just the difference between maxed Trees and maxed Vendor access?

    (If the 53 Reincarnations was disproven, I missed it. Been out of the forums for a few days.. )
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Id have to digging to find the thread now, but wasnt it just last week someone posted the math and demonstrated it would take 53 Reincarnations to get all the Reaper stuff? Or is those last 50 Reincarnations just the difference between maxed Trees and maxed Vendor access?

    (If the 53 Reincarnations was disproven, I missed it. Been out of the forums for a few days.. )
    I believe that was referencing the cosmetic shops for Reaper, not the trees, since you can unlock your first tree at 1k Reaper xp.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoberttheBard View Post
    I believe that was referencing the cosmetic shops for Reaper, not the trees, since you can unlock your first tree at 1k Reaper xp.
    So the power is (significantly?) cheaper than the cosmetics... /facepalm of development IMO.

    Did anyone do the math for just maxing Trees? OP thinks it looks like 3ish. Is the Tree vs Cosmetic cost descrepincy really that much (~50 Reincarnations worth)?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    So the power is (significantly?) cheaper than the cosmetics... /facepalm of development IMO.

    Did anyone do the math for just maxing Trees? OP thinks it looks like 3ish. Is the Tree vs Cosmetic cost descrepincy really that much (~50 Reincarnations worth)?
    I haven't done the math, just casually speculated based on my disinterested participation. But I may have been off in my guess. At this point, I would not be surprised if someone has all three trees filled before the Anniversary. I might even have a tree done by then.

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    Just after the update, I ran some reaper diff quests in a group. We had fun. There was a sense of adventure and comradery based on venturing into the unknown. Today I ran some more with a group (and altered my expectations regarding RXP rates). Same thing, grouped and having fun. Success for Reaper? Maybe.

    You see, DDO, here's the thing. It isn't going to last. Why? Because of the power creep. Once the formula get resolved, people will be able to solo for completions. And we're back full circle. Except now we have 14 difficulty levels instead of 4.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Just after the update, I ran some reaper diff quests in a group. We had fun. There was a sense of adventure and comradery based on venturing into the unknown. Today I ran some more with a group (and altered my expectations regarding RXP rates). Same thing, grouped and having fun. Success for Reaper? Maybe.

    You see, DDO, here's the thing. It isn't going to last. Why? Because of the power creep. Once the formula get resolved, people will be able to solo for completions. And we're back full circle. Except now we have 14 difficulty levels instead of 4.
    I was soloing the Market Place lowbie stuff on a pure ranger the very first day. Ok, only R2, but I was doing it at level. I'm a mini Thor, what can I say? However, I think it will be a while before I pop into PoP, see what I did there, and solo an R2 run, and that's just heroic. It may be considerably longer before I do Epic Garl's Tomb on R2 or above solo, it may even be that it never occurs to me to even try, when I can throw up the idea in guild chat and get a couple of people that need it, or want to run it. At the end of the day, I don't have anything to prove in DDO. I play to have fun, and to enjoy the company of the friends I have in game, and running about soloing everything takes away from that enjoyment. So I'd say, from my own perspective, that Reaper being fun to run in a group means that it is a success. I didn't want it added at all, because of the fuss that I foresaw about the goodies, and now, I run it for fun, and I'm not the least bit concerned about the goodies.

  19. #19
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoberttheBard View Post
    I was soloing the Market Place lowbie stuff on a pure ranger the very first day. Ok, only R2, but I was doing it at level. I'm a mini Thor, what can I say? However, I think it will be a while before I pop into PoP, see what I did there, and solo an R2 run, and that's just heroic. It may be considerably longer before I do Epic Garl's Tomb on R2 or above solo, it may even be that it never occurs to me to even try, when I can throw up the idea in guild chat and get a couple of people that need it, or want to run it. At the end of the day, I don't have anything to prove in DDO. I play to have fun, and to enjoy the company of the friends I have in game, and running about soloing everything takes away from that enjoyment. So I'd say, from my own perspective, that Reaper being fun to run in a group means that it is a success. I didn't want it added at all, because of the fuss that I foresaw about the goodies, and now, I run it for fun, and I'm not the least bit concerned about the goodies.
    Just out of curiousity...what is a mini thor?

    Like I can't tell if its a joke or something, like it means Gnome or Halfling and you are just showing "Race pride" or something. Or is it just a conceited boast?

    Anyone?
    "Hireling" and "Hjealer"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Just out of curiousity...what is a mini thor?

    Like I can't tell if its a joke or something, like it means Gnome or Halfling and you are just showing "Race pride" or something. Or is it just a conceited boast?

    Anyone?
    It was a bit of a meme that went around for a bit; somebody's creative nomenclature for the top-end-of-power characters played by skilled players (unless you don't believe player skill is a thing, then then description stops at "characters" ) iirc it had a bit of a derogatory connotation during initial use but took on a life of its own.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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