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  1. #1
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    Default Was the "solo-tax" successful? If not, can we scrap it?

    This post is to SSG, as they are the only ones with the true numbers on this.

    With reaper we did not only get higher difficulty settings, we also got a mechanic specifically designed to encourage grouping by punishing solo play. The self recovery penalty, or solo-tax as I like to call it.
    From what I have observed and experienced in game though, we don't have more or faster filling LFMs. So it seems to me that it didn't have noticable positive effect but still punished solo play and severely reduced the number of viable builds.
    If this is true, can we please just get rid of the solo-tax? It was a bold try, I applaud you for it. But if it didn't work it's time to scrap it.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Community Member Vear's Avatar
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    Default No

    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    This post is to SSG, as they are the only ones with the true numbers on this.

    With reaper we did not only get higher difficulty settings, we also got a mechanic specifically designed to encourage grouping by punishing solo play. The self recovery penalty, or solo-tax as I like to call it.
    From what I have observed and experienced in game though, we don't have more or faster filling LFMs. So it seems to me that it didn't have noticable positive effect but still punished solo play and severely reduced the number of viable builds.
    If this is true, can we please just get rid of the solo-tax? It was a bold try, I applaud you for it. But if it didn't work it's time to scrap it.

    Thank you.
    Solo Tax lol, umm no

  3. #3
    Community Member nokowi's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    This post is to SSG, as they are the only ones with the true numbers on this.

    With reaper we did not only get higher difficulty settings, we also got a mechanic specifically designed to encourage grouping by punishing solo play. The self recovery penalty, or solo-tax as I like to call it.
    From what I have observed and experienced in game though, we don't have more or faster filling LFMs. So it seems to me that it didn't have noticable positive effect but still punished solo play and severely reduced the number of viable builds.
    If this is true, can we please just get rid of the solo-tax? It was a bold try, I applaud you for it. But if it didn't work it's time to scrap it.

    Thank you.
    What happens with groups has zero impact on your solo play.

    If you see less groups, your conclusion should probably be that soloing is doing fine. You can thank things that help solo players like using hirelings as an easy button in a difficulty setting that is supposed to challenge players. Even somewhat causal players can do this.

    Rewarding group play in highest difficulty is not punishing solo play.

    Expecting one player to be able to do the same as 6 ensures a terrible game for those that want to group. Having a good game for a group of 6 can (and does) still leave a place for the solo player.

  4. #4
    Community Member Vear's Avatar
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    Default to clarify

    Quote Originally Posted by Vear View Post
    Solo Tax lol, umm no

    the "solo tax" if that's a thing is a core component of Reaper. Less outgoing damage, less incoming heals and all the other fun stuff that makes reaper the challenge should not be touched. If you can't "solo" reaper stay out of the kitchen so to speak. Asking for nerfs to make things more like heroic normal defeats the purpose.

    I can roll a new toon for you and help you get through reaper 1 if needed. Let me know

  5. #5
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    First off any build that was considered viable before, I guarantee you I could play in reaper. It might not be the best but I'd be functional.

    The one caveat to that is stealth builds as the aggro changes really screwed them.

    That said: NO to nerfing reaper. Stick with elite if you have issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    What happens with groups has zero impact on your solo play.
    What? That could not be further from the truth. A desire to encourage grouping lead to a HUGE impact in solo play.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    If you see less groups, your conclusion should probably be that soloing is doing fine. You can thank things that help solo players like using hirelings as an easy button in a difficulty setting that is supposed to challenge players. Even somewhat causal players can do this.
    No. Solo was hit hard, and if I as many or less groups I conclude that people either just play less (as I do) and/or have adapted to the extremely more narrow meta game. Either way, what is the argument to keep the failed experiment running?

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Rewarding group play in highest difficulty is not punishing solo play.
    The self recovery penalty is punishing solo play. You can't spin that one.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vear View Post
    the "solo tax" if that's a thing is a core component of Reaper. Less outgoing damage, less incoming heals and all the other fun stuff that makes reaper the challenge should not be touched. If you can't "solo" reaper stay out of the kitchen so to speak. Asking for nerfs to make things more like heroic normal defeats the purpose.

    I can roll a new toon for you and help you get through reaper 1 if needed. Let me know
    If it was about challenge it should not be a penalty so self healing only, it should be a penalty to all healing. If you see this as the standard, then playing with a friend is a HUGE easy button and should definitely be removed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    First off any build that was considered viable before, I guarantee you I could play in reaper. It might not be the best but I'd be functional.
    Good for you.
    Are you really disputing that the difference between playing a top tier build and an average build has increased significantly and that this can be observed in game by the masses of players who are doing their racial lives on Warlocks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    That said: NO to nerfing reaper. Stick with elite if you have issues.
    How much of your game time is spent soloing anyways?

  9. #9
    Community Member Inanout's Avatar
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    Default I solo alot

    Reaper 1 is worth the extra first time exp. ty for that.

    Now if groups of people are using charmed mobs to win, is that really group play.

    I say leave the reaper hard for those that have uber toons and skill who choose not to cheese their way to wings.

    Wait I like cheese. I am going to start grouping with my charming friends.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    What? That could not be further from the truth. A desire to encourage grouping lead to a HUGE impact in solo play.



    No. Solo was hit hard, and if I as many or less groups I conclude that people either just play less (as I do) and/or have adapted to the extremely more narrow meta game. Either way, what is the argument to keep the failed experiment running?



    The self recovery penalty is punishing solo play. You can't spin that one.
    If it's too hard, you can do a self nerf, and play a lower difficulty. I know, we're fixing to see a lot of "but it's not too hard, I can run it just fine" claims, sort of standard fare, but if that were really the case, I expect that we'd see a lot less "it's failed, remove the things that make it what it is" posts. You see, I don't see it as a "failed experiment"; it's got self professed elite players starting threads to nerf it. I'd say that that means it's a huge success. They wanted challenge, and, despite what they're trying to say, it must be pretty challenging, or they wouldn't want it nerfed.

  11. #11
    Community Member Vear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inanout View Post
    Reaper 1 is worth the extra first time exp. ty for that.

    Now if groups of people are using charmed mobs to win, is that really group play.

    I say leave the reaper hard for those that have uber toons and skill who choose not to cheese their way to wings.

    Wait I like cheese. I am going to start grouping with my charming friends.
    ???? is Enchantment not a playstyle? All enchantments spells are Cheese?

    Not sure why you determine a playstyle is cheese, but I like cheese so.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoberttheBard View Post
    They wanted challenge, and, despite what they're trying to say, it must be pretty challenging, or they wouldn't want it nerfed.
    If it's just about challenge then it should apply to all healing, not just self healing. I am all for that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    If it was about challenge it should not be a penalty so self healing only, it should be a penalty to all healing.
    I agree with this. Did the self healing penalty make it so you need a healer? no, it just made it so you cocoon your friend instead of yourself. It should be a complete healing penalty, it is positive damage after all, and should take the damage penalty. Then you would really need a dedicated healer to get good heals.

    edit: For those saying Avant is asking for a nerf to reaper, I see asking not to punish solo more than groups. Apply the same penalty to all healing was what I read.
    Last edited by Cantor; 05-01-2017 at 10:22 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
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    The self healing nerf is kind of pointless anyways. The whole thing came about because of devs who don't understand their own game responding to people who didn't know what they were complaining about. Cocoon isn't what made us suddenly able to do elite content. Being able to get our avoidance up to ~80+% or so was.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    Good for you.
    Are you really disputing that the difference between playing a top tier build and an average build has increased significantly and that this can be observed in game by the masses of players who are doing their racial lives on Warlocks?



    How much of your game time is spent soloing anyways?
    The difference between a top tier build and an average build has not increased significantly. There have always been good, average, and bad builds. There are people doing racial lives on warlocks for convenience - ease of gearing, and some utility functions that warlocks have. THAT said sorcs, monks, artis, rog, maul builds, kensai variants, throwers, divines, and quite a few multiclass builds are par or better than lock builds if played by someone who knows what they are doing. I was doing lock lives but after experimenting with monk - I can firmly state that monk is better "reaper/racial live grinder" than warlock.

    That said: if you have difficulty in reaper you can play elite. There is NO reason to nerf a "for challenge" difficulty. If you have problems w.r.t. reaper having better rewards and making you feel like you have to run then by all means ask for nerfs w.r.t. that.

    I've soloed nearly every quest in the game multiple times. I've also been spent (and continue to spend) an inordinate amount of time soloing/shortmanning content for challenge purposes.

    I standby the claim: ANY build that was viable before is still viable now in reaper (whether solo in low/med skull or in a group in high skull) if played by a good player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I agree with this. Did the self healing penalty make it so you need a healer? no, it just made it so you cocoon your friend instead of yourself. It should be a complete healing penalty, it is positive damage after all, and should take the damage penalty. Then you would really need a dedicated healer to get good heals.

    edit: For those saying Avant is asking for a nerf to reaper, I see asking not to punish solo more than groups. Apply the same penalty to all healing was what I read.
    That's a pretty good rationale for "I want them to suffer as much as I do", but not a real reason to make classes, or specific variants of classes obsolete again. So in order to accommodate the "it's too hard for me to solo", they should nerf group play too? Check it out: In low skull Reaper, the nerf is barely noticeable. If high skull Reaper is kicking one's ass, then they should drop to low skull Reaper. If that's still "too hard", there's always Elite, where there's no penalty at all.

  17. #17
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I agree with this. Did the self healing penalty make it so you need a healer? no, it just made it so you cocoon your friend instead of yourself. It should be a complete healing penalty, it is positive damage after all, and should take the damage penalty. Then you would really need a dedicated healer to get good heals.

    edit: For those saying Avant is asking for a nerf to reaper, I see asking not to punish solo more than groups. Apply the same penalty to all healing was what I read.
    False: If healing was reduced by 96% on skull 10 to all healing: heals would be entirely worthless. I agree however that cocoon should be eliminated from the game (or at least in reaper made unusable). It has fundamentally changed the game whether people want to admit it or not.

    Reaper is a challenge mode. If you find it too difficult or "punishing" play something else like elite or go back to casual. It is designed with groups in mind. AND PLENTY of people are soloing reaper on a wide variety of builds without any problems including on medium skull difficulties (4-7).
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  18. #18
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    This post is to SSG, as they are the only ones with the true numbers on this.

    With reaper we did not only get higher difficulty settings, we also got a mechanic specifically designed to encourage grouping by punishing solo play. The self recovery penalty, or solo-tax as I like to call it.
    From what I have observed and experienced in game though, we don't have more or faster filling LFMs. So it seems to me that it didn't have noticable positive effect but still punished solo play and severely reduced the number of viable builds.
    If this is true, can we please just get rid of the solo-tax? It was a bold try, I applaud you for it. But if it didn't work it's time to scrap it.

    Thank you.
    I have noticed more people tightly grouped above skull 2.
    Below that, the game is only marginally harder.

    No, to your proposal, since I believe the healing nerf is the one thing TRULY balancing the difficulty.
    Otherwise, the floodgates would open on it and we'd need another 10 levels up.

    I agree that the healing penalty could be lowered on skull 1-3 and increase faster up to the point of skull 10. I definitely recommended that on Lammania.
    On the other hand... you're complaining about something that's your fault...



    I solo Skull 3's. You can to.
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 05-01-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    False: If healing was reduced by 96% on skull 10 to all healing: heals would be entirely worthless. I agree however that cocoon should be eliminated from the game (or at least in reaper made unusable). It has fundamentally changed the game whether people want to admit it or not.

    Reaper is a challenge mode. If you find it too difficult or "punishing" play something else like elite or go back to casual. It is designed with groups in mind. AND PLENTY of people are soloing reaper on a wide variety of builds without any problems including on medium skull difficulties (4-7).
    Maybe that's where we should be, you would have to build for max hamp and have a dedicated healer that dedicates to healing gear/AP/etc that is not required currently to max heal anyone. I don't think asking for these kinds of build requirements for highest difficulty is out of line. There are plenty of posts with nukers having 1k+ spellpower, how many healers push for 1k positive spellpower, give them a reason to.

    I play exclusively reaper and a fair amount of that solo (1-5skull), my PoV has nothing to do with being too hard. It has to do with design that is about enforced grouping not challenge. The self healing penalty adds no challenge (ok, a little if you don't have a good cleric who's on top of spot heals) to a balanced group only to solo.
    Last edited by Cantor; 05-01-2017 at 10:50 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avantasian View Post
    This post is to SSG, as they are the only ones with the true numbers on this.

    With reaper we did not only get higher difficulty settings, we also got a mechanic specifically designed to encourage grouping by punishing solo play. The self recovery penalty, or solo-tax as I like to call it.
    From what I have observed and experienced in game though, we don't have more or faster filling LFMs. So it seems to me that it didn't have noticable positive effect but still punished solo play and severely reduced the number of viable builds.
    If this is true, can we please just get rid of the solo-tax? It was a bold try, I applaud you for it. But if it didn't work it's time to scrap it.

    Thank you.
    I do not understand how you can say this.

    Reaper has not in any way punished your solo playing, you can solo everything you soloed before we got reaper.

    Your post is ridiculous.

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