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  1. #1
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Default Out of Combat Healing

    Why?
    I have seen this suggested quite a bit now in the past week. Players want out of combat healing. They say it would help in reaper without breaking the immersion or trivializing self healing in combat.

    What?
    I used to run a couple servers in Neverwinter Nights (not the MMO, the Bioware game based on D&D 3.0). In this game we could use heal kits to top off HP.

    How?
    In DDO most (if not all) agree heal kits are currently useless. What I propose is using them to solve the "heal out of combat" problem. Using the heal skill would provide 20 + (character level *10) + heal skill mod * heal amp added to HP. 5 seconds cast time. 10 seconds cooldown. Any damage at all cancels out the action. No concentration roll.

    Level 5 character
    20+ 25 (lv*5) + 39 (skill mod*3) *1.2 (20% amp) = 100.8

    Level 20 character
    20 + 100 (lv*5) + 150 (skill mod*3) *1.6 (60% amp) = 432

    Level 30 character
    20 + 150 (lv*5) + 240 (skill mod*3) *2.0 (100% heal amp) = 820

    I am not using max values. I am sure the min maxers could eek out more healing. This also does not intend to heal from 1 HP to full HP. Its meant as an UNPENALIZED top off between fights, with zero in combat use.

    Where?
    Reaper difficulty. Not worried about people using it in other difficulties, because self healing is trivialized there anyhow.

    Balanced? Yes? No? Only on odd number days in even number months? Feel free to shout it down if its a terrible idea, I'm satisfied with self healing in reaper currently. I have just seen people on the forums asking for out of combat healing for between fights that isnt penalized, and the way we used to use heal kits in NWN solves that issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  2. #2
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    Its just one more way for people to want to either solo stuff, or run a group of DPS and not need to bring a healer.

    But mostly its about solo'ing stuff.

  3. #3
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm curious how "In Combat" or "Out of Combat" would defined by the game? Or in other words, how does the game decide if your character is eligable for "Out of Combat" healing?

    Wether or not a mob has agro on the character in question? Would any sort of Alert Status (Green, Yellow, etc) prevent "Out of Combat" status? What if mobs are active in the vacinity, but not agro'ed specifically on the character (because of Stealth or whatever)?

    Or would it just be a matter of wether or not you can successfully use the Heal Kit without interruption?
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 05-16-2017 at 10:39 PM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm curious how "In Combat" or "Out of Combat" would defined by the game? Or in other words, how does the game decide if your character is eligable for "Out of Combat" healing?

    Wether or not a mob has agro on the character in question? Would any sort of Alert Status (Green, Yellow, etc) prevent "Out of Combat" status? What if mobs are active in the vacinity, but not agro'ed specifically on the character (because of Stealth or whatever)?

    Or would it just be a matter of wether or not you can successfully use the Heal Kit without interruption?
    any useful implementation for healer/repair kits would be desirable over their current value..

    could make it like the tying your shoe animation.. applies ticks of cures, any movement, action or damage stops the cure process..
    would give benefit to healer kits which have been worthless for as long as I have played the game.. and probably much longer...

    have it be unaffected by reaper reduction and I could see it attain usable value game wide..
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  5. #5
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    any useful implementation for healer/repair kits would be desirable over their current value..

    could make it like the tying your shoe animation.. applies ticks of cures, any movement, action or damage stops the cure process..
    would give benefit to healer kits which have been worthless for as long as I have played the game.. and probably much longer...

    have it be unaffected by reaper reduction and I could see it attain usable value game wide..
    +1
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  6. #6
    Community Member AzureDragonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    any useful implementation for healer/repair kits would be desirable over their current value..

    could make it like the tying your shoe animation.. applies ticks of cures, any movement, action or damage stops the cure process..
    would give benefit to healer kits which have been worthless for as long as I have played the game.. and probably much longer...

    have it be unaffected by reaper reduction and I could see it attain usable value game wide..
    Are we seriously reinventing wheel to substitute hires with kits. Out of combat healing exist for a long day its called hire who can even rez. Either by making kits like this you will be able run away behind doors and heal up which do exact same as hires but requires new coding which is a waste of time, or by even trying to determine what is out of combat and what is not, will involve devs and us to endless cycles of bugs and lag which affects not only you but rest in server. Not talking, that solution you are seeking instead of working on heal amp and spell power to heal better, you are asking to screw divine roles in game even further. Whats next? maybe lets ask feat which allows us cc 1 mob at a time for minute with 6 seconds cd from level one? Where is harm in making cc casters useless if it helps melee?

  7. #7
    Community Member Arctigis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    But mostly its about solo'ing stuff.
    Of course, but that's patently obvious by the framing of the problem and the solution.

    This stuff is already being soloed. The proposed solution will not make it easier to solo
    in any way. It just makes it much less annoying and should also broaden build choices
    somewhat (at the moment you have to build in hamp and wand/scoll mastery somehow).

    Thank you Chai for the objective analysis and the proffering of a solution.

  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm curious how "In Combat" or "Out of Combat" would defined by the game? Or in other words, how does the game decide if your character is eligable for "Out of Combat" healing?

    Wether or not a mob has agro on the character in question? Would any sort of Alert Status (Green, Yellow, etc) prevent "Out of Combat" status? What if mobs are active in the vacinity, but not agro'ed specifically on the character (because of Stealth or whatever)?

    Or would it just be a matter of wether or not you can successfully use the Heal Kit without interruption?
    basically that - unless SSG wants to add another clone MMO mechanic to DDO where everyone sheathes their weapons after X seconds of not having aggro to show "out of combat" status. I made the suggestion without that in mind however, with the understanding that the easier it is to implement the more of a chance it has.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  9. #9
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    I like the idea of making heal kits useful. Even if it takes 10 or 15 seconds of uninterrupted use to top you off and anything that happens stops it, then it is less annoying.

  10. #10
    Community Member Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Why?
    I have seen this suggested quite a bit now in the past week. Players want out of combat healing. They say it would help in reaper without breaking the immersion or trivializing self healing in combat.

    What?
    I used to run a couple servers in Neverwinter Nights (not the MMO, the Bioware game based on D&D 3.0). In this game we could use heal kits to top off HP.

    How?
    In DDO most (if not all) agree heal kits are currently useless. What I propose is using them to solve the "heal out of combat" problem. Using the heal skill would provide 20 + (character level *10) + heal skill mod * heal amp added to HP. 5 seconds cast time. 10 seconds cooldown. Any damage at all cancels out the action. No concentration roll.

    Level 5 character
    20+ 25 (lv*5) + 39 (skill mod*3) *1.2 (20% amp) = 100.8

    Level 20 character
    20 + 100 (lv*5) + 150 (skill mod*3) *1.6 (60% amp) = 432

    Level 30 character
    20 + 150 (lv*5) + 240 (skill mod*3) *2.0 (100% heal amp) = 820

    I am not using max values. I am sure the min maxers could eek out more healing. This also does not intend to heal from 1 HP to full HP. Its meant as an UNPENALIZED top off between fights, with zero in combat use.

    Where?
    Reaper difficulty. Not worried about people using it in other difficulties, because self healing is trivialized there anyhow.

    Balanced? Yes? No? Only on odd number days in even number months? Feel free to shout it down if its a terrible idea, I'm satisfied with self healing in reaper currently. I have just seen people on the forums asking for out of combat healing for between fights that isnt penalized, and the way we used to use heal kits in NWN solves that issue.
    A 5 second timer is way too short. That would not be zero combat use. That would allow ranged and casters in parties to self heal at will, even in combat. In party situations where you had one very good Intim, all but the Intim player could self heal in combat easily. If you had two intim characters, by swapping aggro, anyone could self heal in combat on request.

    Even a soloer on the right builds can buy themselves 5 seconds of no hits.

    If you do that short of a timer, just get rid of self healing debuff all together and make reaper combat super easy.

    It would need to be much, much longer. So long that it is probably no faster than repeatedly scrolling, potting, and wanding yourself back to health. Just less clicking and less annoying.
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  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I would certainly like to see heal kits become useful. But let's face it: this is not a change which will make melee more viable in Reaper (or anywhere else). This is a change which will make things even easier for the ranged kiters.
    Retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.

  12. #12

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    That's great! +1 (edit - I must spread some around apparently)
    I don't know about the numbers but the idea of buff to remove the debuff out of combat is right on.
    I'm sure wise minds could find a way to safeguard against using it in combat with LOS or aggro tables or something.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOTalk71 View Post
    A 5 second timer is way too short. That would not be zero combat use. That would allow ranged and casters in parties to self heal at will, even in combat. In party situations where you had one very good Intim, all but the Intim player could self heal in combat easily. If you had two intim characters, by swapping aggro, anyone could self heal in combat on request.

    Even a soloer on the right builds can buy themselves 5 seconds of no hits.

    If you do that short of a timer, just get rid of self healing debuff all together and make reaper combat super easy.

    It would need to be much, much longer. So long that it is probably no faster than repeatedly scrolling, potting, and wanding yourself back to health. Just less clicking and less annoying.
    Thats part of the issue. Too long of a time and its just as inconvenient as other methods already available in game. Too little time and people use it to trivialize the content.

    Whats specifically is the happy medium? Keep in mind right now I can heal myself from 1HP - full HP in less than 10 seconds in reaper, on any of my characters. Thats why I did not choose 10 seconds as the suggested cast time.

    Also keep in mind that 1 point of damage disrupts, with zero ways to counter that. Its like opening a door or pulling a lever for 5 seconds, have to be stationary for that time, and if you get hit you lose the animation time, get zero heal, and were not DPSing that entire time either....etc.etc. I know people could still find a way to abuse this, so finding the happy medium would need to be ironed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  14. #14
    Community Member Arctigis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOTalk71 View Post
    A 5 second timer is way too short. That would not be zero combat use. That would allow ranged and casters in parties to self heal at will, even in combat. In party situations where you had one very good Intim, all but the Intim player could self heal in combat easily. If you had two intim characters, by swapping aggro, anyone could self heal in combat on request.
    I see this as a positive side effect as it would enable more flexibility with
    group composition - people would still be grouping, right? - unless we're
    only interested in co-op trinity style play?.

    Even a soloer on the right builds can buy themselves 5 seconds of no hits.

    If you do that short of a timer, just get rid of self healing debuff all together and make reaper combat super easy.

    It would need to be much, much longer. So long that it is probably no faster than repeatedly scrolling, potting, and wanding yourself back to health. Just less clicking and less annoying.
    Yes, this would need to be looked at - conversation has to start somewhere though.

  15. #15
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    Default With adjustment

    I am for the healing penalty in Reaper and my initial reaction is in favor for the proposed alteration made here for the heal kit. I can see some back and forth on the actual numbers and duration needed but the idea is sound. You can run with a hire, you can run with hundreds of pot bottles/heal scrolls, you can run in a party, why not make the heal kit useful. It will not affect my running of reaper negatively if someone else chooses to do it, and who knows, on occasion I may choose to do it if my hire dies or I can't find someone to party with. I like options.

    Cheers

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    First I would like to say I'm in favor of making Heal Kits and Repair Kits more then something that is discarded or inventory filler.

    While I found them fun to use in a G.I.M.P. group before all our levels kicked in to prevent deaths, with the change in Agro where mobs no longer disengage when a player is unconscious or in the case of Pale Masters dead within seconds of hitting 0 HP, I like the premise of the idea. I just think the amounts set by the OP are too High.

    First healing should be based on the Heal Skill or Repair Skill respectively. I like the idea of taking damage with no concentration check, but lets not forget things that don't do damage that would still constitute being in combat. I would expand it to - Making a Save Check or a To-Hit Check against the activator of the heal kit.

    Amount healed after a successful Heal Check... DC 15 <- This will mean you can't ignore the Heal Skill to make use of this - Trade-Offs

    Heal Kit Bonus + Heal Skill = Amount Healed => Amount effected by Healing Amplification

    Next I'm thinking it applies a +10% Healing amplification that lasts 30s as long as the character does not move/or take offensive actions/be attacked. This stacks up to 10 times and it lost as soon as one of those actions occur. This will make multiple uses of a healing kit valuable as the character "rests" from action.


    The Activation Time should maintain the current time it takes to activate one of these kits.

    For Poison and Disease use the DC of those effects as they should be more then healing.

    Now the one other issue is these kits are not set to "self" so that will need to be changed as well.


    These are just my thoughts.

  17. #17
    Community Member Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Keep in mind right now I can heal myself from 1HP - full HP in less than 10 seconds in reaper, on any of my characters. Thats why I did not choose 10 seconds as the suggested cast time.
    I can't. I don't think many other players can either. If we are talking about adding a system that will reduce the time to heal from 1 HP to full from 10 seconds to 5 seconds then why are we even having this conversation? I'd say screw it. Why bother? That is a trivial amount of time.

    I was under the impression people were needing 20-30 seconds to heal up to full and click repetitively to do so. If everyone can heal any build in 10 seconds or less to full currently in reaper, then I'd say /not signed. There is no problem. Nothing to fix.
    Last edited by DDOTalk71; 05-17-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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  18. #18
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Out of Combat Healing
    Isn't that what Rest Shrines represent?

    Which brings to mind a question: is shrine-healing currently reduced in Reaper? If it is, I'm all for making shrine-healing not get reduced.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzureDragonas View Post
    Are we seriously reinventing wheel to substitute hires with kits. Out of combat healing exist for a long day its called hire who can even rez. Either by making kits like this you will be able run away behind doors and heal up which do exact same as hires but requires new coding which is a waste of time, or by even trying to determine what is out of combat and what is not, will involve devs and us to endless cycles of bugs and lag which affects not only you but rest in server. Not talking, that solution you are seeking instead of working on heal amp and spell power to heal better, you are asking to screw divine roles in game even further. Whats next? maybe lets ask feat which allows us cc 1 mob at a time for minute with 6 seconds cd from level one? Where is harm in making cc casters useless if it helps melee?
    besides spewing a bunch of BS about complicated programming, lag, bugs, and screwing divines.. and some rant BS about nothing to do with the topic...
    how is this reinventing the wheel..

    healing kits were around before hirelings were even a thing.
    Healing kits are an existing resource available to all players, they were just poorly implemented making them effectively useless next to the stack of cure pots and other magical resources.
    non-magical healing is not a bad thing for the game and should have a place in the game...
    Hirelings take up a player spot in the party, healer kits don't.
    healing kits do not use mana and are also a tool usable by divines who have a vested interest in the heal skill..
    healing kits are not contradictary to heal amp.
    healing kits do not rely on spell power or UMD.
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  20. #20

    Default

    here is the happy medium:
    while using a healing kit, and for the next 30 seconds, your fortification, melee, spell power & ranged power are all reduced to zero. Movement speed & saves are at half.

    This would allow a stealthed character to heal in this way.
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