Summons and Pets!

[newmart]

Hi developers,

I found amazing that u can create a legendary feat specially for summoners (Sion of Elyseum) ignoring that no summon build is viable in the game of any kind. I ve tried many druids and mages, taking all auguments, harper and such, and they never worth the investment. WHY IN THE HELL u add pet enhancements in a tank Warlock tree!?!?! It looks that u dont play the same game as us.

Pets and summons have so much potential for good gaming, and is a basic feature in many games, to have one or more pet classes. Its so strange that u keep adding pet content (warlock enhancements, legendary feat, epic lvs...) to pet machanic as u ignore that nothing of this additions make something really change.

While pets can be usefull rarely, epic summons are NEVER usefull, since their damage is very low in any situation.

I ll suggest some changes, but to the thing become pretty cool, u probably need to add a 3rd druid tree specialized in summons, changes in art and mage.... what takes some time. I ll suggest some urgent changes:

Pets: Pets are usefull till lv 6-8 when their dmg starts to fall off badly. The survivability is ok for all 3, but they need more dmg or functionality.

1) Boost their dmg. _+1 melee and spells power per lv in Augument summoning feat. This makes a 20% bonus in lv 20. I think this makes the feat worth dmg wise already. To keep epic progression, Improved Augument Summoning should add +5 to 10 melee power per epic lv (in addition epic summon buff). This can make then overperform in Epic Normal, but is minimal in Epic elite.

2) While u dont develop specialized trees, pets could give some bonuses to worth keep them alive actually, other than raw dmg. I.e Skelly could give debuff in negative energy vulnerability, and improve wolf capstones to +2 con to party in tank path and destruction in cunning path.

Summons:

Summons need a lot to enhance. In low lvs druid summons can do a bit dmg and can trip enemies what is nice. but dmg is abismaly low for the rest of game. Many summons come with good ideas and its a really waste not being usefull. They need more than a 100% melee power buff in most cases, they could just act as a charmed mob of same lv, but they are very far from this. To make it simple, keep augument summoning buffs above to then in heroic.

For epic summons tough, subpar utillity is unforgiven. Dryad is the best epic summon, has a decent AI and interesting abilities.A little more spell power could make a significant change. I also would change spike growth to entangle for more utility and less graphic issues.

All magister summons are useless. Lich needs a way more spellpower and desintegrate. Enervation and necrotic ray would be interesting. Sucubbus need a good cc, is a enhanter pet!!!! Fascinate a single mob is a minimum or maybe Irresistible dance. Living Meteor could spam less offen with more spell power, for less graphic issues. Dream reaver acts like a lv 1 summoned dog.

All other magister summons are so bad that really needs more sinergy/utility with their specializations. But theres a bigger problem: All other mage speciallizations are useless too. U need to think carefully how to improve transmutation and abjuration trees and their pets.

Do this changes soon and stop releasing feats/enhancements that only makes things worse!

[Mornyngstar]

The enhancements and feats that you described are very useful to a charmer. The bonuses apply to all charmed creatures.

[Arch-Necromancer]

It's about time for pets and summons to be made at least somewhat useable.

I would like to see wizard's pet (skeleton) actually becoming a true pet ("Familiar" in D&D lore) for wizards. Which means removed from pale master's tree as a pickable enhancement (that wastes 6 AP for all ranks) and turned into a "Find Familiar: Skeleton" feat that all wizards get on level 1, just like pet feats from other classes. All benefits from ranks of that enhancement could be gained automatically as the skeleton reaches certain level. And later when they make more time to spend on pale master they could make skeleton to be leveled up just like other pets and to have feats that you could choose for him. And after that they could maybe make another choice for familiar like Imp for non-nerco wizards, bear pet choice for druids, golem pet choice for artificer...

Pale master's enhancements that enhance skeletal knight pet should stay in the tree, but also enhance all undead summons (Create Undead spell and epic lich from magister).

In the same way Arcanotechnician's enhancements that enhance iron defender pet should also enhance all construct summons (currently only golem from conjuration Magister enhancement, but maybe a new spell for wizards and artificers could me made, similar to Create Undead, Create Construct that would summon some constructs).

And one importat thing that needs to be done is making hirelings, pets and summons able to break down doors that can be broken down by players. Currently if you are a low strength wizard that can't break down doors you can't order your pet or hireling that has high strength to break it down. And you have to take fireball as a spell to break it with fireball. Hirelings with Cleave can break down doors with Cleave, so maybe it could be simply fixed by givng all hirelings and pets some attack clickable or to make attack command appear on hireling/pet's command bar when selecting breakable doors...

[PsychoBlonde]

Actually, there is a viable way to do a summon build, but it involves using a legendary greensteel ooze weapon to **** lots of epic oozes everywhere.

It's more effective than you'd think, because those things have a TON of hp so they make a GREAT tank. Once you get several going they're great at blocking up passages and keeping aggro pinned down for you.

I do this on my arti.

[PsychoBlonde]

The real trick with summons in this game is QUANTITY, which is hard to achieve because of course you're limited in what you can summon.

[newmart]

Actually, there is a viable way to do a summon build, but it involves using a legendary greensteel ooze weapon to **** lots of epic oozes everywhere.

It's more effective than you'd think, because those things have a TON of hp so they make a GREAT tank. Once you get several going they're great at blocking up passages and keeping aggro pinned down for you.

I do this on my arti.

Like i said, ive tryed summon builds many times, and, with all feats pets are actually good tanks (they have strong survivability, even n reaper, besides what everyone says) and i suppose that with Sion of Elyseum they can tank even more. But thats it? I build a lv 20 mage and sacrifice a lot of dc and legendary feat to get a tank that cant taunt? This only makes sense to me if u build a bear tank druid and opt for a tank pet, so u can make him taunt some mobs or dual tank a mobs for short periods while u heal. But druids arent decent tanks and even in this possibility a little more dmg wont hurt.

Most people expect pets to do same dmg as players, or do 50% of your dmg output like Hunters pet in Wow. To this be possible a dedicated tree is a must. For now they just need to worth the feats! A heroic, an epic and a legendary feat. Also, eveyone who summons a lv 30 epic lich expect a fair disintegrate at least, not a 5 point lv 1 spell magic missile. Its not about a op build, its just "hey i have a lich, he can crit 1k sometimes! This is not endgame build, but is fun, i want fun.

[PsychoBlonde]

So, your real complaint isn't that the pet build is worthless/impossible, but that it doesn't work the way you think it "should" work.

[newmart]

So, your real complaint isn't that the pet build is worthless/impossible, but that it doesn't work the way you think it "should" work.

Nothing is impossible, but worthless for sure. Also they dont have any kind on sinergy. The only thing that makes sense its tanking pets like i said, because all feats go in this direction.

Tough there are a lot of summons in game, Dryad, Succubus, Lich, Elementals. Augument summoning dont improve Dryad Heals, nor Lich dmg. Its not what i suppose to be, its what a summoned Dryad and Lich are supposed to be. Noone expect a Lv30 Lich spam lv1 spell, with lv zero damage. No feats improve his performance. Most summon monster spells are useless also. While some mobs have a cc that can be improved (Earth Elemental) many only have dmg, but the dont have dmg actually.

If the game had only a "turtle tank" summon and feats to make a turtle tank build possible, it would be ok. But dont put spellcaster summons that do nothing and dont worth mana costa.

[Questdoer]

What if the druid and arti pets had a complete revamp to their enhancements?
>Insert shameless self promotion here<
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ncement-Update

[Arch-Necromancer]

What if the druid and arti pets had a complete revamp to their enhancements?
>Insert shameless self promotion here<
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ncement-Update

That's cool, but currently Pale Master skeleton does not have any enhancements so priority should be to make him normal pet first, IMO.

[ForgettableNPC]

I made a 9 Druid/6 Warlock/5 Wizard and took ALL the summon buffs.
The oozes I summon from legendary greensteel deal around 1000 damage per hit on Epic Elite.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I am pretty happy with my summoner build.

I use summons as a distraction more then anything. I can get several oozes from Greensteel and legendary greensteel, a random from Epic Roderic's wand or Shard of xoriat or from Epic Diabolist's Robe and my favorite the epic wolf whistle.

They make great targets, the mobs go straight for any of those before coming after me, which improves my survival.

It also makes it possible to do Legendary Hard HOX in one round of charming, when the puppies have all the buffs from my summoners charms, it goes fast.

[Turtlsdown]

Nothing is impossible, but worthless for sure. Also they dont have any kind on sinergy. The only thing that makes sense its tanking pets like i said, because all feats go in this direction.

Tough there are a lot of summons in game, Dryad, Succubus, Lich, Elementals. Augument summoning dont improve Dryad Heals, nor Lich dmg. Its not what i suppose to be, its what a summoned Dryad and Lich are supposed to be. Noone expect a Lv30 Lich spam lv1 spell, with lv zero damage. No feats improve his performance. Most summon monster spells are useless also. While some mobs have a cc that can be improved (Earth Elemental) many only have dmg, but the dont have dmg actually.

If the game had only a "turtle tank" summon and feats to make a turtle tank build possible, it would be ok. But dont put spellcaster summons that do nothing and dont worth mana costa.

Let me tell you how this is going to go. You will give good reasonable feedback hoping for an intelligent discussion about a problem in a game that you've come to like. It will be met with derision, taunting, twisting of your words and/or intentions, and ridicule.

Know that you are not the first and won't be the last. Kudos for trying though. It seems over the years that most useful pointings-out of problems in this game fall on deaf ears and get buried in the toxic sludge.

[Enoach]

I think part of the problem is that in many cases people measure the damage output of a pet and summon based on the damage output of a player character of the same level. If the druid's wolf, arti's iron defender or the PM's skeleton matched the fighter of their level (even a first lifer) it would come close to doubling the damage output for those characters. Then summons also becoming equalish would bring that damage output up even more (summons being disposable and easy to replace with scrolls)

Now I agree it is time to consider the Druid and Artificer pets enhancement update (Both still being on the old system). PM is a different animal as it is the only pet gained via enhancements. It is also the only pet that cannot be geared. It would be nice if they could do something to change that.

Another person pointed out that quantity is a big factor in summons. At one point you could summon multiple Dense Rock Elementals via Heroic Green Steel. This was great extra crowd control. I think the "One summon at a time" rule does tie the hands of players that want to play with summons. I propose that the rules used in PnP where if you pick a monster from the list 1 level lower then the spell you get 1d3 of them and if you pick from the list 2 or more levels below you get 1d4+1.

Another aspect of summons I think needs to be corrected is give them a basic UI bar - Hold/Follow, Defend, Attack everything, Do nothing and dismiss at a minimum.

For Epic levels I think the epic summons CR needs to be better then CR20.

---------------
As a note I'm a long time player of Pale Master Wizard and use the Skeletal Knight as a tank. While I have a single Druid past life I do not maximize the enhancements. I do use buffs to augment him so that he hits a little harder and survives a little longer. I also tend to micro manage him, pulling him out of a fight to restore his health - Or even standing just close enough to burst/aura heal him while he holds the agro.

Since I only spend 41 points in PM I don't see these points are not wasted as there are no other options to up my DCs that I have not already taken.

[Powerhungry]

I think part of the problem is that in many cases people measure the damage output of a pet and summon based on the damage output of a player character of the same level. If the druid's wolf, arti's iron defender or the PM's skeleton matched the fighter of their level (even a first lifer) it would come close to doubling the damage output for those characters. Then summons also becoming equalish would bring that damage output up even more (summons being disposable and easy to replace with scrolls)

Now I agree it is time to consider the Druid and Artificer pets enhancement update (Both still being on the old system). PM is a different animal as it is the only pet gained via enhancements. It is also the only pet that cannot be geared. It would be nice if they could do something to change that.

Another person pointed out that quantity is a big factor in summons. At one point you could summon multiple Dense Rock Elementals via Heroic Green Steel. This was great extra crowd control. I think the "One summon at a time" rule does tie the hands of players that want to play with summons. I propose that the rules used in PnP where if you pick a monster from the list 1 level lower then the spell you get 1d3 of them and if you pick from the list 2 or more levels below you get 1d4+1.

Another aspect of summons I think needs to be corrected is give them a basic UI bar - Hold/Follow, Defend, Attack everything, Do nothing and dismiss at a minimum.

For Epic levels I think the epic summons CR needs to be better then CR20.

---------------
As a note I'm a long time player of Pale Master Wizard and use the Skeletal Knight as a tank. While I have a single Druid past life I do not maximize the enhancements. I do use buffs to augment him so that he hits a little harder and survives a little longer. I also tend to micro manage him, pulling him out of a fight to restore his health - Or even standing just close enough to burst/aura heal him while he holds the agro.

Since I only spend 41 points in PM I don't see these points are not wasted as there are no other options to up my DCs that I have not already taken.

a raid with 12 druids, each with a wolf pet and a maximized 1d4+1 summons (so 5 each) is 1+1+5=7 x 12 =84 player critters at once (plus 12 more cosmetic pets makes 96) - I like it, but I think the servers would not.

[Selvera]

I would like to see items specifically made for summoners; something like these:

*Note: When I say summons, I mean "hirelings, pets and summons"

Summoner's Tome (ML 28 Orb): +10 Intelligence, +10 Wisdom, +10 Charisma, Your summons gain +100 false life bonus to health, Your summons gain +50 insightful bonus to health, Green augment slot.

Commander's Cloak (ML 28 cloak): +5 Insightful Con, +3 Quality Con, +13 Insightful Physical Sheltering, +13 Insightful Magical Sheltering, Your summons gain +10 deadly, your summons gain +4 insightful deadly, Yellow Augment Slot.

Supreme Tactician's Goggles (ML 28 goggles): +10 Con, +3 Quality Intelligence, +3 Quality Dexterity, Your summons gain +15% melee and ranged alacrity (not stacking with haste), Your summons gain +12 resistance bonus to all saves, your summons gain +5 melee and ranged power and +15 universal spell power, Orange augment slot.

etc.

The idea here is that the character stats they grant would be lower then those of at-level crafted items, but it gives powerful bonuses to summons while you wear them to make up for it. The trade off being that your character loses out on valuable item slots for best-in-slot items, but you get more powerful summons instead (and still get half-decent stats on your main character).

[Enoach]

a raid with 12 druids, each with a wolf pet and a maximized 1d4+1 summons (so 5 each) is 1+1+5=7 x 12 =84 player critters at once (plus 12 more cosmetic pets makes 96) - I like it, but I think the servers would not.

It would be so much fun .

It would be great if Summon Undead could also be updated along the same lines. Maybe break it into a Level I to IX spell.

[Arch-Necromancer]

I would like to see items specifically made for summoners; something like these:

*Note: When I say summons, I mean "hirelings, pets and summons"

Summoner's Tome (ML 28 Orb): +10 Intelligence, +10 Wisdom, +10 Charisma, Your summons gain +100 false life bonus to health, Your summons gain +50 insightful bonus to health, Green augment slot.

Commander's Cloak (ML 28 cloak): +5 Insightful Con, +3 Quality Con, +13 Insightful Physical Sheltering, +13 Insightful Magical Sheltering, Your summons gain +10 deadly, your summons gain +4 insightful deadly, Yellow Augment Slot.

Supreme Tactician's Goggles (ML 28 goggles): +10 Con, +3 Quality Intelligence, +3 Quality Dexterity, Your summons gain +15% melee and ranged alacrity (not stacking with haste), Your summons gain +12 resistance bonus to all saves, your summons gain +5 melee and ranged power and +15 universal spell power, Orange augment slot.

etc.

The idea here is that the character stats they grant would be lower then those of at-level crafted items, but it gives powerful bonuses to summons while you wear them to make up for it. The trade off being that your character loses out on valuable item slots for best-in-slot items, but you get more powerful summons instead (and still get half-decent stats on your main character).

Nice and balanced idea for new items.

[WraithfaceMacabre]

Oldish idea of mine, but niggles. When it was 10th anniversary free gifty time, there were a couple "Gee, everything else is pretty useless. I may as well take that cosmetic Ice Robe" guys running around. At the time I was hoping you'd offer a "D10 pet" as a 10th anniversary option.

Imagine a humble d10 rolling around after you --perfect. Apparently there's a boulder? Never seen it. Anyway, 12th anniversary D12?

~~Wraithface

[VoiTass]

Hmm, regarding summon ideas - the epic feat Improved Augment Summoning could be enhanced by giving the player an ability to summon a creature similar in stats to the Epic Thaarak Hound from the Epic Wolf Whistle. The type of creature could be defined by the player's alignment.