Looking for advice on Rogue build. Int or Dex, Assassin or something else

[seldarin]

I am looking for some advice on what would be deemed optimal regarding current rogue builds. I am currently at cap, but wish to tweak things a little. I have been following Hassan's build, but clearly the gear is a bit out of date. To get things back on track, which is better, Dex or Int? Hassan or Slarden, or something else.

I have tomes, gear, plat, etc, etc, so sorting things out isn't an issue, just need some pointers in the right direction. I prefer to melee if possible, but if I need to swap things around to go ranged, can do that too. Any comments/assistance greatly appreciated.

[blerkington]

This kind of depends on a few things. Whether you have a preference for a particular race, whether you mainly solo or group, and if you run reaper or not.

One area where dex based assassins have an advantage is in the reaper trees. You can get a DC boost from the adversary tree by improving your dex, but if you are int based you'd have to spend points in the caster tree for an equivalent increase. So int based assassins kind of got screwed there.

On the other hand, there seems to be less gearing conflict for int based assassins with new ravenloft gear. Dex based assassins face some problems there between items competing for the same slot (assassination and insightful dex gloves) which might cost you some DC and/or the loss of another important effect like healing amp or doublestrike. That's less of an issue if you're not trying to fit in a 5 piece slaver set and the silent avenger one as well.

I think assassin has a lot to recommend it, and I can tell you from experience that it performs well even in higher skull reaper content provided you don't just build for DC at the expense of everything else. But it does require some practice to play effectively and without dying a lot, especially if you're lacking gear and past lives, and don't get me started on the oddities of the current stealth system.

That being said, it's definitely not for people who just want the absolute strongest thing so they can monster truck their way through content as quickly as possible and without thinking. Crossbow rogues also have a lot to recommend them, they do good dps at a safe distance so I imagine they would be a lot easier for soloing certain content.

Good luck with it.

[TueNictGut]

It really depends on what you want:

Dex has more dmg from more Ap in vistani, a slightly higher assassinate dc and the option to take scion of Ethereal to trade 4 dc of assassinate vs more SAdmg.
Int has a better Dire Charge Dc from Kta and the possibility to get a high dc Crowdcontrol from magical traps and twist daunting Roar. It looses one feat for insightful reflexes and 8Ap for magical traps though and doesnt offer the opportunity to take the vistanicapstone, so its best to play int as a pure assassin. With the better control options Int should be better suited for soloplay.

With the possibility to splash the Assassin without loosing dmg by taking the vistani capstone, you have lots of possibilities to add some funstuff from splashes like Movementspeed from barb.

DPSwise a rog 18 mnk 2 build dex would most likely be the best choice.
Its a glasscannon build though and sacrifices some defense and utitlity like sneakspeed. with the possibility to take the capstone of vistani it is damagewise not necessary to stay pure for an assassin anymore. Vistani offers 5% combat speed and +10Mp for loosing 4Sa against a pure Rogue.
A pure Build still has the highest Assassinate dc. A rog 19 mnk 1 version of this build would only be 1 behind though. -1 rog lvl, -3 capstone vs +1 vistanicap (+2 to all abilities), +2 from +4 dex from windstance, this one is 2dc behind a pure build.


Glassknife
18/2 Rogue/Monk
Lawful Neutral Shadar-kai


Level Order

1. Rogue. . . . . .6. Rogue. . . . . 11. Rogue. . . . . 16. Rogue
2. Monk. . . . . . 7. Rogue . . . . .12. Rogue . . . . .17. Rogue
3. Rogue. . . . . .8. Rogue. . . . . 13. Rogue. . . . . 18. Rogue
4. Rogue. . . . . .9. Rogue. . . . . 14. Rogue. . . . . 19. Rogue
5. Rogue. . . . . 10. Rogue. . . . . 15. Monk. . . . . .20. Rogue


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . 36pt. . .Tome. . .Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . +3 . . . 4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 18. . . .20 . . . 20. . . .20 . . . +6 . . . 8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .16 . . . +4 . . .12: DEX
Intelligence. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .14 . . . +5 . . .16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . 10. . . . 8 . . . 10. . . .12 . . . +3 . . .20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . . 6 . . . +3 . . .24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: DEX

Skills
. . . . . R. M .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .M. R. R. R. R. R
. . . . . 1. 2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . . .5. . . . . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1½ 1½ 4 . . ½. 1½ 1½ 1½ 23
Disable . 4. . .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. . .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. . .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Bluff . . 4. . .1 .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 4. . .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Hide. . . 4. . .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Move Si . 4. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. . .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
Balance . 3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .40. 7 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 .8 12 12 12 12 12


Feats

.1. . . . : Improved Feint
.2 Monk . : Two Weapon Fighting
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Defense
.6. . . . : Adept of Forms
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Master of Forms
15 Monk . : Precision
18. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Grandmaster of Forms
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Blinding Speed
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

11 Rogue. : Improved Evasion
14 Rogue. : Opportunist
18 Rogue. : Slippery Mind


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP)

• Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Knife Master
  1. Vistani Knife Training, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Acrobatic II, Rapid Attack
  2. Vistani Knife Training, Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker, Weapon Versatility, Haste Boost
  3. Vistani Knife Training, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Dexterity
  4. Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers, Dexterity

Assassin (35 AP)

• Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
  1. Shiv I, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy II
  2. Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
  3. Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  4. Execute, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  5. Assassinate, Measure the Foe I, Knife Specialization

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)

• Staff Control
  1. Fast Movement

Henshin Mystic (1 AP)

• Riddle of Fire

Destiny

Twists of Fate (31 fate points)

1. Symetric Strikes (Tier 4 Primal)
2. Balanced Attacks (Tier 3 Primal)
3. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
4. Dance of Flowers (Tier 1 Flowers)
5. Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

2 monk are for 10% mp from hensin, 2 feats >> grandmaster windstance 12%doublestrike and +4 dex, +4% doublestrike frome legendary feat (astral plane) for beeing centered, +1,5 w from twisting dance of flowers.

Race: Take any Race with +2 dex

You can ditch the 10 mp from henshin for +1 MtF if u use it regulary or u could decide against movementspeed for max dmg to go 38 Ass and get the nice boost from deadly strikes.

Destiny is Shadowdancer or Dreadnaught, switch action boost twist to Stealthy if going Dreadnaugth
Dual defense feat helps with the low defenses and can be swaped for Sap or Tougness or even +2 wilsave
Same goes for elusive target switch it for holystrike, pierce dmg or first blood

Compared to Hassan build this build has +20% offhand strike, +2,5w basedmg, +26% doublestrike, +10% offhand doublestrike, + 20Mp, +5% combat speed loosing 5 Sa 2 Assassinate and deadly strikes dmgwise.
The main difference to a pure build with 23 Ap in vistani is the +16%doublestrike and 5% combat speed, +20Mp and +1,5w traded vs 4Sa, 2 dc Assassinate and deadlystrike
But u loose prr from leather armor some max dodge and utility like immune to slippery or imp defensive roll

Sidenote: with +2,5 w Agony really becomes an option again because of its 2w4 basedmg.

hope this helped a bit and wasnt to detailed, had the glassknife in mind now for a while and it seemed like good opportunity to outline it.
Have fun and feel free to discuss this further

[seldarin]

This kind of depends on a few things. Whether you have a preference for a particular race, whether you mainly solo or group, and if you run reaper or not.

One area where dex based assassins have an advantage is in the reaper trees. You can get a DC boost from the adversary tree by improving your dex, but if you are int based you'd have to spend points in the caster tree for an equivalent increase. So int based assassins kind of got screwed there.

On the other hand, there seems to be less gearing conflict for int based assassins with new ravenloft gear. Dex based assassins face some problems there between items competing for the same slot (assassination and insightful dex gloves) which might cost you some DC and/or the loss of another important effect like healing amp or doublestrike. That's less of an issue if you're not trying to fit in a 5 piece slaver set and the silent avenger one as well.

I think assassin has a lot to recommend it, and I can tell you from experience that it performs well even in higher skull reaper content provided you don't just build for DC at the expense of everything else. But it does require some practice to play effectively and without dying a lot, especially if you're lacking gear and past lives, and don't get me started on the oddities of the current stealth system.

That being said, it's definitely not for people who just want the absolute strongest thing so they can monster truck their way through content as quickly as possible and without thinking. Crossbow rogues also have a lot to recommend them, they do good dps at a safe distance so I imagine they would be a lot easier for soloing certain content.

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the feedback. I mostly group, haven't done a lot of reaper as I am not what I deem built properly for it. I need to get the trapping side of things sorted out, along with whether Assassin or Mechanic would be a better fit. From there, would dex or int, or melee v ranged be better

[seldarin]

It really depends on what you want:

Dex has more dmg from more Ap in vistani, a slightly higher assassinate dc and the option to take scion of Ethereal to trade 4 dc of assassinate vs more SAdmg.
Int has a better Dire Charge Dc from Kta and the possibility to get a high dc Crowdcontrol from magical traps and twist daunting Roar. It looses one feat for insightful reflexes and 8Ap for magical traps though and doesnt offer the opportunity to take the vistanicapstone, so its best to play int as a pure assassin. With the better control options Int should be better suited for soloplay.

damagewise a rog 18 mnk 2 build dex would most likely be the best choice.
Its a glasscannon build though and sacrifices some defense and utitlity like sneakspeed. with the possibility to take the capstone of vistani it is damagewise not necessary to stay pure for an assassin anymore. Vistani offers 5% combat speed and +10Mp for loosing 4Sa against a pure Rogue.

Glassknife
18/2 Rogue/Monk
Lawful Neutral Shadar-kai


Level Order

1. Rogue. . . . . .6. Rogue. . . . . 11. Rogue. . . . . 16. Rogue
2. Monk. . . . . . 7. Rogue . . . . .12. Rogue . . . . .17. Rogue
3. Rogue. . . . . .8. Rogue. . . . . 13. Rogue. . . . . 18. Rogue
4. Rogue. . . . . .9. Rogue. . . . . 14. Rogue. . . . . 19. Rogue
5. Rogue. . . . . 10. Rogue. . . . . 15. Monk. . . . . .20. Rogue


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . 36pt. . .Tome. . .Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . +3 . . . 4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 18. . . .20 . . . 20. . . .20 . . . +6 . . . 8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .16 . . . +4 . . .12: DEX
Intelligence. . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .14 . . . +5 . . .16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . 10. . . . 8 . . . 10. . . .12 . . . +3 . . .20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . . 6 . . . +3 . . .24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: DEX

Skills
. . . . . R. M .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .R .M. R. R. R. R. R
. . . . . 1. 2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . . .5. . . . . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1½ 1½ 4 . . ½. 1½ 1½ 1½ 23
Disable . 4. . .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. . .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. . .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Bluff . . 4. . .1 .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 4. . .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Hide. . . 4. . .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Move Si . 4. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. . .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
Balance . 3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .40. 7 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 .8 12 12 12 12 12


Feats

.1. . . . : Improved Feint
.2 Monk . : Two Weapon Fighting
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Defense
.6. . . . : Adept of Forms
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Master of Forms
15 Monk . : Precision
18. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Grandmaster of Forms
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Blinding Speed
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

11 Rogue. : Improved Evasion
14 Rogue. : Opportunist
18 Rogue. : Slippery Mind


Enhancements (80 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (41 AP)

• Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Knife Master
  1. Vistani Knife Training, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Acrobatic II, Rapid Attack
  2. Vistani Knife Training, Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker, Weapon Versatility, Haste Boost
  3. Vistani Knife Training, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker, Deadly Blades, Dexterity
  4. Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers, Dexterity

Assassin (35 AP)

• Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
  1. Shiv I, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy II
  2. Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
  3. Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  4. Execute, Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
  5. Assassinate, Measure the Foe I, Knife Specialization

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)

• Staff Control
  1. Fast Movement

Henshin Mystic (1 AP)

• Riddle of Fire

Destiny

Twists of Fate (31 fate points)

1. Symetric Strikes (Tier 4 Primal)
2. Balanced Attacks (Tier 3 Primal)
3. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
4. Dance of Flowers (Tier 1 Flowers)
5. Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

2 monk are for 10% mp from hensin, 2 feats >> grandmaster windstance 12%doublestrike and +4 dex, +4% doublestrike frome legendary feat (astral plane) for beeing centered, +1,5 w from twisting dance of flowers.

You can ditch the 10 mp from henshin for +1 MtF if u use it regulary or u could decide against movementspeed for max dmg to go 39 Ass and get the nice boost from deadly strikes.

Destiny is Shadowdancer or Dreadnaught, switch action boost twist to Stealthy if going Dreadnaugth
Dual defense feat helps with the low defenses and can be swaped for Sap or Tougness or even +2 wilsave
Same goes for elusive target switch it for holystrike, pierce dmg or first blood

Compared to Hassan build this build has +20% offhand strike, +2,5w basedmg, +26% doublestrike, +10% offhand doublestrike, + 20Mp, +5% combat speed loosing 5 Sa 2 Assassinate and deadly strikes dmgwise.
The main difference to a pure build with 23 Ap in vistani is the +16%doublestrike and 5% combat speed, +20Mp and +1,5w traded vs 4Sa, 2 dc Assassinate and deadlystrike
But u loose prr from leather armor some max dodge and utility like immune to slippery or imp defensive roll

With the possibility to splash the Assassin without loosing dmg by taking the vistani capstone, you have lots of possibilities to add some funstuff from splashes like Movementspeed from barb.
A pure Build still has the highest Assassinate dc. A rog 19 mnk 1 version of the above build would only be 1 behind though. -1 rog lvl, -3 capstone vs +1 vistanicap (+2 to all abilities), +2 from +4 dex from windstance.

hope this helped a bit and wasnt to detailed, had the glassknife in mind now for a while and it seemed like good opportunity to outline it.
Feel free to ask

I might TR and give this one a shot, just to check it out, cant really hurt. Any recommendations from a gearset point of view?

[TueNictGut]

To illustrate the dmgpotential: The build has 5% combatspeed +20Mp compared to a pure Assassin and can reach a standing doublestrike of 100%
Add in a 100% offhandchane and 20% offhanddmg and you have lots of hits and therefore can compensate the loss of -5Sa to a purebuild with ease in my opinion.

Lets consider the possible Doublestrike with the right equipment
Doublestrike: 20 Rapidattack (morale)+12windstance(untyped)+10vistanitree(shoul d be untyped)+9Martialpastlife(should stack) +8 Scion of Astral(should stack) +5ptwf (should stack)+3opportunist(untyped)+3Shadowtraining IV(profane) = 70
farm and equip stuff like+17 outfit of celestial avenger (enhancement) and +10 (insightful) LegendaryLore-Fueled Packbanner and you are at 97% doublestrike!
twist hail of blows or farm a legendary mantle of fury (enhancement) and your doublestrike is maxed

Correct me please if i got some bonus wrong, its pure theorycrafting

[TueNictGut]

Thanks for the feedback. I mostly group, haven't done a lot of reaper as I am not what I deem built properly for it. I need to get the trapping side of things sorted out, along with whether Assassin or Mechanic would be a better fit. From there, would dex or int, or melee v ranged be better

A Mechanic with Greater xbow is great dps and much easier and safer to play especially in reaper. As its int based by nature its better at trapping and has crowdcontrol with magical traps and knockdown from vorpals. But every Rogue with the apropriate gear should be able to do 99% of the traps (not sure if that is true for reaper.)
The Glassknife should provide higher boss dps though and has a great and fun instakill ability with assassinate but it will die fast! best play in grps and use aggromanagemnet to avoid agro. That said it might be a good idea to skill diplomacy.

Itemwise other players are better suited, as i dont play at the moment and just like theorycrafting Assassins
General guidelines:
- Improved deception item as for every Rogue (Backstabbers Gloves, Golden Guile, Ring of deceit...)
- havnt played Ravenloft so far but i guess max Melee power is the way to go on Sentinel weapons for this.
- try to get or craft the highest doublestrikeitems (enhancement and insightful) possible at any stage.
- Max Dex
- daggers: ofc the new raid daggers followed by legendary shroud are King here. If u dont have them like me a Tier2 Thunderforgedagger with dragonsedge is very nice, Agony should be a very a good choice beacause of the 2w4 base dmg synergizing with +2,5 w in this build. Epic Assassins kiss is nice because of the better crit multiplyer, Slice and Dice are easy to get later and are solid choices and the Drowdagger is great the first lvls of epic for its unbeaten crit profile and Morninglord daggers seem to be good choice too.
- Armor: Outfit of the celestial avenger should be a good choice, its good defense and offers 17% doublestrike.
- Get max Assassinatebonus possible before ravenloft this was by cannith crafting but u should check the Ravenloft quest items anyway and farm waht is best