The Protecting Children from Abusive Games Act

[lyrecono]

Senator Josh Hawley (R-MO) is introducing legislation that seeks to ban exploitative video game industry practices that target children like loot boxes and pay-to-win, he announced on Wednesday.


Loot boxes are in-game treasure chests that contain random items. They’re typically purchased using in-game currency or real-world money and they’ve become a common sight in online video games in the last few years, generating millions in profit for publishers. But, some fear they’re too much like gambling and are exploitative. Some countries, like Belgium and the Netherlands, have already taken legal action and forced publishers to modify or remove loot boxes from their games.

The bill will ban loot boxes with randomized or partially randomized rewards. It will also prohibit certain exploitative pay-to-win mechanics. For example, developers won’t be able to manipulate the competitive balance of multiplayer titles to encourage players to buy microtransactions that give them an advantage. Manipulating a game’s progression system to entice players into spending money to progress won’t be allowed as well.

Sen. Hawley is not the first U.S. politician to propose loot box legislation. Lawmakers in Hawaii introduced four bills in February 2018 that aim to regulate the sale of video games containing loot boxes. Two of the bills would ban selling such games to people under the age of 21. The other two require publishers to clearly label games that have loot boxes and disclose the odds of winning items.

sauce:
https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news...ll-1203208889/
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/..._One-Pager.pdf
https://kotaku.com/u-s-senator-intro...pay-1834612226
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/8/18...sh-blizzard-ea


looking at the dutch view on lootboxes and microtransactions:
Loot boxes where the content is transferable are illegal (and a seen as gambling). aka gold rolls who's consumables are unbound?
https://dutchgamesassociation.nl/new...itys-findings/

It seems there is a pushback to all these micro transactions and lootboxes, will this impact ddo and if so, in wich way?
this quote:Manipulating a game’s progression system to entice players into spending money to progress won’t be allowed as well. Does that mean exp potions are no longer allowed when this bill passes?

And disclosing odds of winning? ddo never did that, will that change now if this bill passes?

[Saekee]

/signed this is a good thing, not sure how it will affect P2W playing but if so, I would be happy to know that fellow players are not being exploited in any way.

[Oliphant]

A small game like DDO closing up shop after being subjected to cost and liabilities of complying is too likely for my taste. We need something much more fundamental to protect people on the internet than this banning of micro-transactions. Perhaps apps should not be storing credit card information so children do not have access to funds they did not earn. And if the kids earn their money, I doubt they will be soaked for any huge amount, and whatever the amount will be worth the lesson. When you earn your own money it means something to you.

[Yamani]

It seems there is a pushback to all these micro transactions and lootboxes, will this impact ddo and if so, in wich way?
this quote:Manipulating a game’s progression system to entice players into spending money to progress won’t be allowed as well. Does that mean exp potions are no longer allowed when this bill passes?

And disclosing odds of winning? ddo never did that, will that change now if this bill passes?

Will it impact DDO? probably not at all, seeing as this game doesnt target minors, the games they are targetting is stuff like candy crush. All ddo would have to do is change the rating from T to M and be done with it.

Disclosing the odds of winning? Seeing as the only thing in ddo that classifies as a loot box is daily dice and collectables crates. Neither of which really give a competitive advantage. Also daily dice DOES disclose the odds to winning as its literally on the screen right their as you role for it.

[blerkington]

Chest rerolls might also fall into this category since they can produce valuable items like tomes. And daily dice rolls only partially disclose their odds, not fully, because there are subtables selecting which sort of additional prize you win at different rolls. Those tables are also changed from time to time and with no notification.

DDO isn't as bad as some other MMOs like this but they could be doing more to help their customers, like fully disclosing the odds on chest terolls and daily dice. The principled thing to do would be publish complete information about how these systems work and update that information when it changes. SSG might not be required to do that but sometimes doing more than is legally required can be good for a company and its customers.

Thanks.

[Yamani]

Chest rerolls might also fall into this category since they can produce valuable items like tomes. And daily dice rolls only partially disclose their odds, not fully, because there are subtables selecting which sort of additional prize you win at different rolls. Those tables are also changed from time to time and with no notification.

DDO isn't as bad as some other MMOs like this but they could be doing more to help their customers, like fully disclosing the odds on chest terolls and daily dice. The principled thing to do would be publish complete information about how these systems work and update that information when it changes. SSG might not be required to do that but sometimes doing more than is legally required can be good for a company and its customers.

Thanks.

The real question though is where is the competitive advantage though. Besides stroking someones ego their really is no competitive advantage.

[TedSandyman]

It's dishonest and deplorable in my opinion. Here, buy this thing. You might get what you want, you might not. Oh. Sorry you didn't get it? Spend some more money and try again.

It is the very essence of the corruption allowed by capitalism. Don't get me wrong, capitalism is good if done correctly. The problem is that when the prices get fixed (monopoly or corporate inside agreements) or your allowed to sell something that might not be something, there is a problem.

Making profits off of bait and switch is what loot boxes are. They are wrong. They are corrupt. Playing on the human tendency to keep trying to get a good outcome and charging for it is the absolute worst in taking advantage of fellow human beings. And loot boxes are just the next step in this direction.

Sell me something. Tell me what I get and put a price on it. A fair price? A high price? I don't care. But don't offer me false hope and charge me for it.

DDO doesn't do a lot of this, but there are places where it is creeping in. There are boxes of ingredients you can buy in the store where you may or may not get the ingredients you need. There are vendors where you can turn in shards and you MIGHT get the augment you are looking for.

It does increase profits, but it does so at the cost of cheating customers. It is a cheap and underhanded way to increase profits and I would like to think that a legitimate company who really cares about its customers wouldn't participate in such deceptive practices.

And I don't care at all about the daily dice. That is gambling. But it is out in the open gambling. If you want to participate in that, then fine. That is your choice. But it's the underhanded hidden gambling that I am opposed to and I think that is the thing that the proposed law it trying to get at. The hiding of gambling and making it seem legitimate.

[fatherpirate]

DDO does not have loot boxes.
So...why bring it up here ?
I think this thread needs to be in another section, that is just me.
Have a great day.

[NemesisAlien]

Playing on the human tendency to keep trying to get a good outcome and charging for it is the absolute worst in taking advantage of fellow human beings.

Jackpot been around since before the age of computers.

[lyrecono]

Will it impact DDO? probably not at all, seeing as this game doesnt target minors, the games they are targetting is stuff like candy crush. All ddo would have to do is change the rating from T to M and be done with it.

Disclosing the odds of winning? Seeing as the only thing in ddo that classifies as a loot box is daily dice and collectables crates. Neither of which really give a competitive advantage. Also daily dice DOES disclose the odds to winning as its literally on the screen right their as you role for it.

It's more then just loot boxes.

Actually, daily dice consumebles and chest rerolls fall under this catagory, years ago, people were selling ingame items for real life money, i have seen people pay 500bucks for an sos shard that got transfered in a chest and was payed using paypall.
And that wasn't an incident, it was rampant enough for the devs to see a profit, enough of a profit to invest in the production of a shard AH and tiered loot.

But another part of the act is the progression slowdown and the sale of means to bypass it.
Quote: developers won’t be able to manipulate the competitive balance of multiplayer titles to encourage players to buy microtransactions that give them an advantage. This should mean exp pots, exp tomes, stat tomes, skill tomes, otto boxes and exp stones in daily dice, etc.
This might mean that some p2w races and classes need to be nerfed down if they provide more power then the standerd versions.
The dialog box that tries to sell you a rez cake might fit in that catagory too.

Btw, due to the f2p and social nature of this game, plenty of kids currently play this, wether its because they don't have much money or wether its because family plays it too. Changing the game from rated T to M won't change that.

The act might be set up tto protect children (since some people see videogames as a thing for kids only) but plenty of adicted grown ups spend way to much money in game.

[lyrecono]

DDO does not have loot boxes.
So...why bring it up here ?
I think this thread needs to be in another section, that is just me.
Have a great day.

Read the bill and the rest of the links provided, this will impact all the p2w microtransactions that have infested ddo over the years.

[PsychoBlonde]

Disclosing the odds of winning? Seeing as the only thing in ddo that classifies as a loot box is daily dice and collectables crates.

Treasure chest rerolls for shards.

This bill has NOTHING to do with protecting "the children". If you don't want your kids spending money on games, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION. Don't let them share your accounts. Don't give them your password. Monitor what they're doing. BE A PARENT. UNDERSTAND how to use that device you carry around, because, trust me, THEY understand it.

This is all about getting leverage to ban something that people find objectionable on the grounds that someone, somewhere is too much of a dolt to accept personal responsibility for themselves.

Close down the state lotteries first and I might believe this "concern" with "protecting" people from "gambling".

As for people spending "too much" on the game--that's their business. It's their money, NOT YOURS. Mind your own business.

[lyrecono]

Treasure chest rerolls for shards.

This bill has NOTHING to do with protecting "the children". If you don't want your kids spending money on games, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION. Don't let them share your accounts. Don't give them your password. Monitor what they're doing. BE A PARENT. UNDERSTAND how to use that device you carry around, because, trust me, THEY understand it.

This is all about getting leverage to ban something that people find objectionable on the grounds that someone, somewhere is too much of a dolt to accept personal responsibility for themselves.

Close down the state lotteries first and I might believe this "concern" with "protecting" people from "gambling".

As for people spending "too much" on the game--that's their business. It's their money, NOT YOURS. Mind your own business.

I agree people should raise their kids propper, however, parents aran't around their kids 24/7, they might have grown up with a nes/snes ps1 themselves and don't recognize the mental manipulation of modern games and the gambling adiction they try to push on all the players.
Where i grew up, japanese hentai video rentals were placed in the kids cartoon section because the owner grew up in an age where (US based) cartoons were targeted at kids.
A lot of kids grew up a little faster beforen the owner was informed, i can tell you that.
The system isn't perfect but trying to point to others when someone is trying to bring a positive change about doesn't help anyone.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Treasure chest rerolls for shards.

This bill has NOTHING to do with protecting "the children". If you don't want your kids spending money on games, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION. Don't let them share your accounts. Don't give them your password. Monitor what they're doing. BE A PARENT. UNDERSTAND how to use that device you carry around, because, trust me, THEY understand it.

This is all about getting leverage to ban something that people find objectionable on the grounds that someone, somewhere is too much of a dolt to accept personal responsibility for themselves.

Close down the state lotteries first and I might believe this "concern" with "protecting" people from "gambling".

As for people spending "too much" on the game--that's their business. It's their money, NOT YOURS. Mind your own business.

LOL Spoken like someone with no experience around children. I won't recount them here, but I have more than enough evidence to debunk the "parents should be responsible so this won't happen" line of argument.

My first thought upon reading "protect the children" was that it should read " protect the parents of children from unsavory business practices that target children". There are plenty of businesses very happy to exercise unscrupulous, deceitful, and yes, fraudulent activities in the service of their bottom line.

I can't speak to the motives of the legislator, or the efficacy of the bill, but don't pretend this can be addressed with personal responsibility.

[Ulfo]

Sell me something.

Ok. I sell you hope.

Tell me what I get and put a price on it.

You get hope. Price is named.

A fair price? A high price? I don't care.

Ok.

But don't offer me false hope and charge me for it.

Hope can't be false, its just feelings, any hope is true. So, go to your p1 - i sell you hope, real, genuine hope for win. Pay for it or go away. What wrong? 8)

[Jerevth]

Meh. I think there is a failure on the part of parents- they shouldn't police their children 24 hours a day; they should teach them to police themselves. I'm not the greatest parent but my son knows right from wrong, asks permission for in game buys and he offers to knock out chores to earn it.

Parents now-a-days don't often teach responsibility because they don't have responsibility. They look to lay the blame and responsibility elsewhere.

Long diatribe now deleted.

[Chai]

The real question though is where is the competitive advantage though. Besides stroking someones ego their really is no competitive advantage.

Not true per the laws in other countries, which the US is trying to mimic here. Part of this also addresses artificial difficulty inflation, then adding the ability to mitigate or buy your way through it, in the store, which basically describes reaper in its current state. What they are addressing here is the addictive nature that takes advantage of compulsive habits (which goes way deeper than stroking egos). Of course, as usual, they also use language of protecting the children to pull peoples heart strings - and you will see this in these types of bills as often as you see "what about the newbies" on this forum.

[Iriale]

Not true per the laws in other countries, which the US is trying to mimic here. Part of this also addresses artificial difficulty inflation, then adding the ability to mitigate or buy your way through it, in the store, which basically describes reaper in its current state. What they are addressing here is the addictive nature that takes advantage of compulsive habits (which goes way deeper than stroking egos). Of course, as usual, they also use language of protecting the children to pull peoples heart strings - and you will see this in these types of bills as often as you see "what about the newbies" on this forum.

Much truth in these words

Although the argument of the newbies is basically cynical. In truth, the game would have more longevity if it were able to retain more newbies. And I would have liked that some of the new ones (my friends) that I tried to attract to this game would stay, instead of getting scared when they saw the reality of the game. A more rational design of the game, both in its economic aspect as in the grind (although both are related) would have been very welcome.


----

For the rest, this sensibility already exists in other countries. The question is whether it will really be extended to DDO. I doubt it, really. These types of companies are usually good at finding back doors in the laws. And that's if this type of arrangement really takes shape.

[Arianrhod]

Treasure chest rerolls for shards.

This bill has NOTHING to do with protecting "the children". If you don't want your kids spending money on games, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR CREDIT CARD INFORMATION. Don't let them share your accounts. Don't give them your password. Monitor what they're doing. BE A PARENT. UNDERSTAND how to use that device you carry around, because, trust me, THEY understand it.

This is all about getting leverage to ban something that people find objectionable on the grounds that someone, somewhere is too much of a dolt to accept personal responsibility for themselves.

Close down the state lotteries first and I might believe this "concern" with "protecting" people from "gambling".

As for people spending "too much" on the game--that's their business. It's their money, NOT YOURS. Mind your own business.

While i agree in principle, that's not exactly how it works in DDO (and, i suspect, in other games as well). In DDO, if you don't want your credit card associated with an account, it has to be _completely free_ i.e., no money has ever been spent on it (at least not by credit card). So if you want your kids to have premium accounts with goodies that you've chosen to buy for them, you open yourself up to this sort of risk. The only way to avoid it is never to associate a credit card with an account your kid uses, and that's not necessarily a good solution.

[gnarledmaw]

It's ...[nonsense]... legitimate.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!

Dennis, this isnt your week to be executive officer. Besides...Ooooh! Did you see the lovely filth over there?