Temple of Elemental Evil: Bugged and poor design. Needs to be fixed

[Phemt81]

I just had the first huge fail with my 4th lifer in temple of elemental evil on heroic elite at level (I am level 10 atm)

At first I immediately liked the atmosphere, the graphic design and the old school approach to what D&D adventures should be. Yes, Will Wheaton is a bit annoying with all the talk he does (lol) but you can pass on that given the nice experience you get at first...

Then you start to notice the actual problems:

The quest is very long and full of respawning monsters. The challenge is good, maybe I wouldn't like all the quests to be like that one, meaning you need at least a couple of hours the first time you run at level, but it's still a nice change of pace.

And then you get to the living pool in the water temple for which I couldn't find anything to work against.
Reentered the quest something like 5 times and got instant killed as soon as I entered the room.
I mean, is it considered good design to put a monster 3x3 meters big in a 4x4 room?

There is literally nothing you can do about it if you don't have a caster dps focused.

Also it is bugged, if you stand close to the door while still outside it will still kill you in a couple of blows.

It's really a shame to waste 4 hours in a bugged poorly designed quest...

Now, aside the bug that needs obviously to be fixed, like any other, there is really a poor game design issue with this boss fight.

An easy fix would be to make it die when you kill the summoners (which you still need to kill in order to be able to damage it) or, alternatively, the door opens when you kill them and you can decide to run away with the key or try to have a fair fight in a little bigger environment where you can range him having some more hopes.

We shouldn't have quests 2/3 hours long with an unkillable/almost invincible enemy. That's just poor design, not entertaining and frustrating. I would never buy a pack like this or pay monthly to sponsor a game with this forma mentis of "fun".

And looking around part 2 doesn't seem much better; https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...emental-Evil-2

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and that's why I played it for almost 4 years and thought to come back as soon as I had more time to spend home, that's the reason why I am trying to provide constructive criticism to improve it in the areas it needs to. I even brought a total newbie to the game and she was really disappointed with the design of that boss fight...

Thoughts? Ideas? Drama?

Take care and stay safe.

[Krelar]

One way around it, you don't actually have to kill the pool, bring a caster friend with ddoor and escape as soon as you grab the key.

It's also a cube, and the room is a cube, it is possible (but a bit tricky) to get it stuck diagonally in a corner so that you have a safe little triangle to stand in.

[Phemt81]

One way around it, you don't actually have to kill the pool, bring a caster friend with ddoor and escape as soon as you grab the key.

It's also a cube, and the room is a cube, it is possible (but a bit tricky) to get it stuck diagonally in a corner so that you have a safe little triangle to stand in.

Thanks for the trick mate.

Unfortunately I don't happen to be or have in my static party an arcane caster. Also, ddowiki doesn't mention it. Maybe you should edit the page

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Maybe you should ask the original developers of the pen & paper adventure about the design ?

[rabidfox]

Just wait until you get to part 2 and the boss 1 shots you. Just like the pen & paper version, it's a party killer. People rarely run it on level because it's brutal compared to most other instances; but that's also part of its appeal.

[cru121]

Few updates ago, SSG has fixed some long-standing bug that affected all ooze... their damage did not seem to scale correctly. Now it does, and the ToEE ooze is definitely over the top.

[Phemt81]

It is quite clear to me that the community recognise that specific battle as not being properly reflecting the theoretical difficulty of dungeons within the same level range.

I am curious to know what is the opinion of the developers regarding the same now.

Take care and stay safe.

[rabidfox]

It is quite clear to me that the community recognise that specific battle as not being properly reflecting the theoretical difficulty of dungeons within the same level range.

I am curious to know what is the opinion of the developers regarding the same now.

Pre-reaper, people wanted harder content but there wasn't a dial beyond elite... So from my understanding, ToEE, Slave Lords, etc were made harder than other content per the same level bracket to give those who wanted a challenge a challenge. There's really no reason to nerf their difficulty, having a few quests that are dialed up to 11 makes for variety.

[ValariusK]

I do wonder if there's anything wrong with ToEE that a massive increase in the XP wouldn't fix. Slavers people run because the xp (for the time it takes) isn't horrible and the loot is still relevant. TOEE (especially part 2) has serious issues that players would be way more willing to deal with if the xp payout was more considerable. Think about shadow crypt. It is a pain to learn, but people learn it. Why? Because it has a great payout. Some loot adjustment on TOEE might also be a good idea.

[Phemt81]

I do wonder if there's anything wrong with ToEE that a massive increase in the XP wouldn't fix. Slavers people run because the xp (for the time it takes) isn't horrible and the loot is still relevant. TOEE (especially part 2) has serious issues that players would be way more willing to deal with if the xp payout was more considerable. Think about shadow crypt. It is a pain to learn, but people learn it. Why? Because it has a great payout. Some loot adjustment on TOEE might also be a good idea.

Exactly my point; not balanced. Difficulty, length, rewards. Plus the bugs and the living pool...

[Saekee]

he is slightly over the level you probably did the quest but Mikayl the Pious is ML 11 fighter with DDoor dragonmark. It also does not seem to ever expire. I use him at cap if outside SD destiny...


I agree, that cube fight--i just do not do that quest without ddoor. It is an awful fight and then you have to fight two water ellies in two different rooms. DDoor is so much easier...Outside that fight, part 1 is pretty easy. Part 2 end fight is brutal and takes some knowledge, temp hp etc and is better in a group.

The quest design favors ranged combat as you can pick off most mobs in all locations from far away save for the living pool of water which traps you in a small space.

[Phemt81]

There's really no reason to nerf their difficulty, having a few quests that are dialed up to 11 makes for variety.

Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify that I am not demanding a "nerf" of ToEE quest difficulty. I am just asking to re-balance the difficulty of the living pool fight and check the bug since the majority of the comments seem to agree that the fight is unproportionate to the rest of the quest, that is challenging, but totally doable. The skip fight with D-door cause not worth it seems a bit like cheating to me.

I like a good challenge!

[Retired_Old_Gamer]

ToEE is one of the best translations from D&D to DDO we've had. At level (heroic) it can be a real test to your skills. (unless you go into it with a trip completionist super-uber toon (then what's the point?).
Doorway fight tactics is the best way to solo it.

Pros:
great design.
good xp if you are willing to spend the time to get to 3K kills for a 350% xp bump that and all the named monsters xp is quite considerable BUT that time sink is what kills most players from doing this.
halfway decent loot for newer players that don't have a war chest or C crafting.

cons:
Will Wheaton (sorry pal, I can't get over the star trek flashbacks to turn that sound on during the quest)
still has a few quirks that can make the quest incomplete-able.
base xp should be a few ticks higher for the time sink (even on a speed run)
named loot needs an upgrade or the crafting for it needs an update.

As for the Living Pool at lvl. solo on a kensai lvl 9 w/ new ooze beater from Kind of a Big Deal and a fvs hire. It absolutely crushed* me. Had to re-enter several times. If you can, take out all the clerics in the room before and then once in. Otherwise by the time you release, repair and re-enter they have healed him back up. That fight at level is harder than both end fights imo.

[kmoustakas]

Yeah you absolutely need ddoor both for part 1 (not only for the pool, the goristro bugs often too and you get stuck) and part2 the end fight otherwise you're going to have bad time I'm afraid.

[Phemt81]

Yeah you absolutely need ddoor both for part 1 (not only for the pool, the goristro bugs often too and you get stuck) and part2 the end fight otherwise you're going to have bad time I'm afraid.

Can you elaborate that for me please?

I am not sure to have encountered that bug.

[Retired_Old_Gamer]

Yeah you absolutely need ddoor both for part 1

No you don't, it's an option sure, but not "absolutely needed"

[rabidfox]

The skip fight with D-door cause not worth it seems a bit like cheating to me.

It might need re-tuning if a recent patch has altered things. But DD isn't cheating, it's a tactical choice; it's very pen & paper style to avoid a fight entirely.

[kmoustakas]

Can you elaborate that for me please?

I am not sure to have encountered that bug.

If you kill the goristro sometimes it bugs out and the air jets don't reverse gravity you to the top floor so without DDOOR you're stuck down there.

[AstorPotamus]

Long story short: Other than completely replacing Wil Wheaton’s super annoying voiceover optional with a singing kobald whack-a-mole-like optional, there is absolutely nothing that needs to be done to change ToEE.

It’s MEANT to be a challenging slog fest, so there’s absolutely no reason to neuter it. Sure, it sucks at first, but it’s your choice whether you use it as a learning tool or sulk because it’s too hard for you.

Simply put in the game parlance the kids use today, “Git gud or git rekt.”

PS I guess Wil can stay, cuz there is something kinda therapeutic about yelling, “Shut up, Wesley!”

[Dabima]

They really buffed gelatinous cubes too much when they updated them. It's not uncommon to be killed in less than 5 seconds running a quest on R1. That fight is even worse in epic difficulty, as he will hit you for well over a thousand damage per second, instantly killing you while you're on the loading screen