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  1. #1
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default Evasion or Heavy Armor

    Hey Everyone!

    Back in the day making a build without splashing two levels of rogue or monk to get evasion seemed like a huge oversight. However with the changes over the last 5 years maybe that is no longer the case.

    Is it now better to use Heavy armor and forgo evasion?

    Discuss!

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    In all honesty, not a good thread, as the question posed is too limited and the answers very diverse and extensive (depending on points raised, which this topic doesn't do).

    But if I were to break it down, I would through what your role primarily is for:

    Dps? Evasion.
    Tank? Heavy Armor.

    J1NG
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  3. #3
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Is it now better to use Heavy armor and forgo evasion?
    Depends a lot on your build and what content & level range you're aiming for lol.

    If I have Fighter/Paladin 3+ I'd like to use Improved Defender Stance, which requires Med/Hvy armor or a Shield; 20% HP is great before you get EDF. So that blocks Evasion for those toons.

    If I have a build that wants a capstone I'm stuck with whatever I get from my class.

    If it's a specific class split, maybe I can't afford /2 dip for Evasion. In that case, balancing Dodge/ASF/etc with what I get from heavier armor is the consideration.

    If I'm on an Arcane, ASF sucks but it still might not be worth dipping for Evasion; there, I might have neither XD

    If I'm on a tank I want Heavy Armor; there's a bunch of content where spell DPS can't be evaded, where the MRR cap kills you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  4. #4
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    Best answer: both are viable, if you build for them properly.

    It depends entirely on your build, and what your other stats are: if you have lots of MRR from things like PLs, that favors Evasion...up to a point where you hit the cap, then more MRR favors Armor again...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    If I have Fighter/Paladin 3+ I'd like to use Improved Defender Stance, which requires Med/Hvy armor or a Shield; 20% HP is great before you get EDF. So that blocks Evasion for those toons.
    Buckler lets you Evade still, so you could have both...12 Bard 6 Fighter 2 Rogue, for example

  6. #6
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    there's a bunch of content where spell DPS can't be evaded, where the MRR cap kills you.
    In particular some recent raids, such as Killing Time and THTH were designed with un-evadable damage - deflect arrows and MRR can catch some of that. If you're running ordinary quests on reaper, the answer might still be evasion.

    One of my toons is played as a raid-cleric. The monks are needed a lot more raises than the pallies these days.
    Don't be a figjam.

  7. #7

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    The question is too broad.

    Are you doing content where Evasion matters? Ever since Ravenloft (the past 2.5 years), the developers have embraced non-avoidable magic damage like dots (Baba, THTH, Forgewraits, etc) or AE effects like Horrid Wilting and Spell Targeting circles.

    Ranged DPS don't care about PRR. There the focus is on avoidance with dodge, deflect, and kiting.

    Melee DPS: Are you getting one shot in light armor? Are you repeatedly dying to trash mobs in quests? Then medium or heavy armor might be a better option for you.

    Magic damage: Are you in content where magic damage is utterly destroying you? Reaper THTH, high skull KT, etc. Then that 100 MRR cap with light armor is holding you back from success.
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  8. #8

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    You can make any armor work, but it's not as simple as evasion vs. heavy armor. You have to build around the armor you plan to wear. I generally think of it like this:

    None or light: evasion with max dodge, blur, ghostly, and DR (includes PRR/MRR/Fortification)
    Medium: max dodge, blur, ghostly, and DR with some healing amp
    Heavy: max blur, ghostly, DR, healing amp, and HPs

    Most robe and light armor classes only need a splash of healing amp to fully heal using a scroll the exception being monks who will need a bit more. For heavy armor users you can never have enough hit points and healing amplification. In all cases you want to get your DR stats as high as possible along with things that make the attacker miss you outright (dodge, blur, ghostly).

  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Is it now better to use Heavy armor and forgo evasion?
    Short answer: it depends.

    Longer answer: It depends on your toon.
    • First off, are you able to get good Reflex saves on your build? ["Good" being defined by what content/difficulty you plan to run so it's a sliding scale not a static number.] If you answer "no," then definitely plan around wearing med/hvy armor. MRR is capped in light armor and robes whereas there is no cap in medium or heavy armor. If you can't rely on Reflex to save your broccoli, then you need all the protection you can get. If you answer "yes," though, we're still not done.
    • Second, does your build / class have any bonuses or abilities which depend on what armor you equip? Monks have to stick with robes to stay centered. Rangers, bards, and rogues all have abilities which work only in light armor; e.g., Swashbuckling, Light Armor Mastery, Elaborate Parry, etc. OTOH fighters can take the Heavy Armor feats which boost MRR & PRR.
    • Third, how much are you giving up by splashing your toon? I.e., how good is your primary tree's capstone? If you're making an Eldritch Knight build, the EK cap is a pretty good boost to your Spellsword DPS; a S&B fighter or paladin will really want the Vanguard capstone; etc. Do you want to give it up for Evasion (and/or trap skills)? [If it's an epic toon: rather than splashing, might it be better to run in Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar to get Evasion?] OTOH a Vistani or Inquisitive build will probably use their tree's capstone so they can multiclass all they want.
    • Finally, what are the best-in-slot armors for your build? That will also shape your decision re:Evasion. Maybe you'll decide the best armor for you is Mist-laden Vestment for the Silent Avenger set bonus; in which case, it makes sense to see if you can add Evasion as well. OTOH if your heart's set on Watch Captain's Platemail, Evasion won't work so might as well as plan around that.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Jomee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Back in the day making a build without splashing two levels of rogue or monk to get evasion seemed like a huge oversight.
    I remember back in the day when you could evade in medium armor!

  11. #11
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Buckler lets you Evade still, so you could have both...12 Bard 6 Fighter 2 Rogue, for example
    For sure, and I've even designed builds around that (11/5/4 Bard/Rogue/Fighter was the split I went for). But that's an even more niche case than usual, and the OP wanted broad generalizations XD
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  12. #12
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the help!

    Thanks everyone for your responses. This was exactly the information that I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by J1NG View Post
    In all honesty, not a good thread, as the question posed is too limited and the answers very diverse and extensive (depending on points raised, which this topic doesn't do).

    But if I were to break it down, I would through what your role primarily is for:

    Dps? Evasion.
    Tank? Heavy Armor.

    J1NG
    To be honest... not a good response. You never want to start with criticizing someone for asking a question. Replying to a question with a question asking for more detail is a good response, maybe you should lead with that next time. I also believe that your assessment that this is not a good thread was incorrect as you can see there were several good responses which have given me things to consider and have pointed me in directions to go depending upon which choices I make in my build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The question is too broad.

    Are you doing content where Evasion matters? Ever since Ravenloft (the past 2.5 years), the developers have embraced non-avoidable magic damage like dots (Baba, THTH, Forgewraits, etc) or AE effects like Horrid Wilting and Spell Targeting circles.

    Ranged DPS don't care about PRR. There the focus is on avoidance with dodge, deflect, and kiting.

    Melee DPS: Are you getting one shot in light armor? Are you repeatedly dying to trash mobs in quests? Then medium or heavy armor might be a better option for you.

    Magic damage: Are you in content where magic damage is utterly destroying you? Reaper THTH, high skull KT, etc. Then that 100 MRR cap with light armor is holding you back from success.
    Carpone, you say the question is too broad but then you gave great answers. Have more faith in yourself, brother!
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Last-Wolf View Post
    I surrender to your wit sir, well played
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  13. #13
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    It used to be a game of Evasion builds have high dodge and could ignore most spell types with proper Reflex. This means that they didn't get hit often to make up for getting hit hard when they did. It was a risk/reward, and most favored evasion. As Carpone mentioned, the game has shifted to unevadable damage. Almost every new AOE cannot be evaded, every raid from KT on has unevadable mechanics, and dots like Burning Blood and Divine Punishment seem to be more heavily used. This puts MRR clearly ahead of Evasion in Raids, though quests it is still a game of "it depends". Evasion is still effective against most traps, and that can be a struggle for new quests and new players, and traps can be tools you can use against enemies. Once you know trap locations and how to physically avoid them, combat now favors MRR. However Heavy Armor does not innately giving you MRR, and if you are not on a build that can push you very far past 100 MRR, 100 MRR + Evasion is better than just 100(ish) MRR.

    There is also the factor of Dodge. Heavier armors restrict your Dodge. Light armor has higher MDB, light armor evasion classes have MDB bonuses for light armor, and there is Lithe. Where the jump of Dodge from Med to Heavy is ~10 and is debatable vs PRR gains, it can be 20+ from Medium to Light. Assuming you're on a build that can raise their max dodge enough to take advantage of that, how much dodge you face to lose vs MRR to gain is another deciding factor.

    Unfortunately life sucks for Monk in all this. They are the only class in the game locked to unarmored, so the 50MRR cap is painful. It didn't make sense to me for balance when they first implemented it, and now in the current game balance it is even worse. I'm hoping they allow Monks to have 100MRR like every other evasion class, but that's a different debate.
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  14. #14
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Thanks everyone for your responses. This was exactly the information that I was looking for.

    To be honest... not a good response. You never want to start with criticizing someone for asking a question. Replying to a question with a question asking for more detail is a good response, maybe you should lead with that next time. I also believe that your assessment that this is not a good thread was incorrect as you can see there were several good responses which have given me things to consider and have pointed me in directions to go depending upon which choices I make in my build.
    The reply was deliberately written that way to highlight the issue which you may not be aware of. And if you look at every response here, every one of them has gone slightly differently expanding bit by bit as someone posts something, exactly as I said it would because of the nature of the posed question in your OP. We have no idea what to answer for you as any answer is technically correct and viable, but they may or may not be what you are after.

    That is why I said it was a poorly designed OP post. And why I threw in a simple response in to help get things going, despite it seemingly being a troll post or unhelpful.

    J1NG
    Thelanis: Yijing (*Completionist* TR 20 Aasimar Scourge Monk Level 20 / Epic Level 10)
    Thelanis: Pocket-Monks: Sightblur, Peashoote, Jigglypath, Jedinja.
    Invisible Fences, unkillable Target Practice Dummy's, Shared Bank's, Pale Lavender Ioun Stones, the dimensional barrier between Eberron and Shavarath, I've broken them all...

  15. #15
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Hey Everyone!

    Back in the day making a build without splashing two levels of rogue or monk to get evasion seemed like a huge oversight. However with the changes over the last 5 years maybe that is no longer the case.

    Is it now better to use Heavy armor and forgo evasion?

    Discuss!

    Thanks!
    Pretty broad question, which makes me think you're not really sure of what you are asking.

    So, the biggest, simplest thing you should look at is are you going to be able to get your reflex save up with your planned build. If you want to evade, you need a pretty high reflex save. So you need to be dex based or have some other way to get that save up for evasion to be useful.

    You can't just take a tank build, give it a level or rogue and benefit from evasion. You will have to work at it.

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