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  1. #1
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    Default Tokens of the Twelve

    The token farm is the most pointless mind numbing grind out there with the limited post-20 pre-25 quests you get them from that grant more or less just experience and tokens and nothing else of note - and oddly enough there is a really functional tried and true system that COULD work for them already in place in the Commendations of Valor. Reincarnation is the backbone of this game, yet a key part of it is held back like this. Why isn't there a "Heroic Commendation" you could use to farm up Tokens of the Twelve? Or even just having the 20-30 commendations from quests be possible to turn in for Tokens of the Twelve, and/or also drop pre20?

    What's the reasoning behind this design? I'm looking for something positive to see to make me feel less bad about doing it.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by woq View Post
    The token farm is the most pointless mind numbing grind out there with the limited post-20 pre-25 quests you get them from that grant more or less just experience and tokens and nothing else of note - and oddly enough there is a really functional tried and true system that COULD work for them already in place in the Commendations of Valor. Reincarnation is the backbone of this game, yet a key part of it is held back like this. Why isn't there a "Heroic Commendation" you could use to farm up Tokens of the Twelve? Or even just having the 20-30 commendations from quests be possible to turn in for Tokens of the Twelve, and/or also drop pre20?

    What's the reasoning behind this design? I'm looking for something positive to see to make me feel less bad about doing it.
    So you buy them from the store.
    The devs tried to remove them completely, but there was a huge outcry. So the devs left them in the game, but no new quest will ever drop them.

  3. #3
    Community Member devashta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woq View Post
    The token farm is the most pointless mind numbing grind out there with the limited post-20 pre-25 quests you get them from that grant more or less just experience and tokens and nothing else of note - and oddly enough there is a really functional tried and true system that COULD work for them already in place in the Commendations of Valor. Reincarnation is the backbone of this game, yet a key part of it is held back like this. Why isn't there a "Heroic Commendation" you could use to farm up Tokens of the Twelve? Or even just having the 20-30 commendations from quests be possible to turn in for Tokens of the Twelve, and/or also drop pre20?

    What's the reasoning behind this design? I'm looking for something positive to see to make me feel less bad about doing it.
    Be happy that they are at least in the game. It took a lot of noise from us to keep them in-game. You either farm it out or buy TR wood from the store.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by devashta View Post
    Be happy that they are at least in the game. It took a lot of noise from us to keep them in-game. You either farm it out or buy TR wood from the store.
    How do you mean, you're saying they removed tokens and didn't put a replacement of any kind leaving money the only way to reincarnate, putting a really high $$/Favor cost on every reincarnation? I think it's good you're able to farm them out so if money or complete completion of the game was the only option then yeah, but it seems to me like there would be better built in alternatives in the game as replacement that would be less pigeon-holy if you think about the gameplay loops of DDO. Seems a whole lot like settling for a subpar choice from devving pov.

    I have a hard time coming to terms with cheap cash grab being the only reason for such an outdated system to stay in place when the reincarnation system itself is quite fantastic.

  5. #5
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    With a full party and 5 people donating a token to the needy. It shouldn't take that long. If it is taking long, You're doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Dnarth; 06-21-2020 at 11:07 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woq View Post
    How do you mean, you're saying they removed tokens and didn't put a replacement of any kind leaving money the only way to reincarnate, putting a really high $$/Favor cost on every reincarnation? I think it's good you're able to farm them out so if money or complete completion of the game was the only option then yeah, but it seems to me like there would be better built in alternatives in the game as replacement that would be less pigeon-holy if you think about the gameplay loops of DDO. Seems a whole lot like settling for a subpar choice from devving pov.

    I have a hard time coming to terms with cheap cash grab being the only reason for such an outdated system to stay in place when the reincarnation system itself is quite fantastic.
    You should be thanking those that stood up at the time and got this idea changed. There are many ways to farm tokens that are easy.

    https://www.engadget.com/2013-10-20-...uz2qnwaOB9FdUA

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    Just because an even worse system was nearly put into place does not mean that the current one doesn't need improvement. Long time vets of this game are tripping over tokens of the 12. I don't think they realize how much of a pain it is to farm these things up for a lot of us, especially if you want to do it solo.

    Reincarnation is one of the central gameplay loops of DDO. There is no reason in the world that a greater variety of quests shouldn't drop tokens and fragments. You should not have to stop what you are doing and run Cannith Challenges and a handful of quests until your eyes bleed for a week or two every time you want to reincarnate. I have a character right now that I am flipping to reincarnate, and I just can't bring myself to go through the grind again.

    I am grateful to the past players that stood up against a change that would have broken the game entirely. But pretending that the system we have now is great for everyone is not going to get any movement towards further improvements. The current system absolutely is designed to push us to the item shop, for a progression path that is no longer optional to get a character that is up to par for most PuGs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woq View Post
    Why isn't there a "Heroic Commendation" you could use to farm up Tokens of the Twelve?.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this already exist in the form of fragments of tokens?

    If you play any of the quests that drop tokens, you can pick up fragments along the way for killing things. The fragments can then be combined into hearts.

    I guess maybe I haven't played enough, but I ammased a large number of tokens running von5 and 6 mostly and haven't ever had a shortage. Seems like they take just as long as farming comms for an epic reincarnation.




    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    Just because an even worse system was nearly put into place
    So I'm really curious about this, can you tell the full story?

  9. #9
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    Rather than TR at 20 you should consider going the full 1-30 for an additional epic past live. Run Von3+4, LoD+Servants, WK+OOB and Spies on R1 and Elite. Thats quite good xp and nets you just about the tokens you need to TR. Add in EH and EN runs if you like - still good xp and some more tokens earned.

    If you run an iconic life once in a while you will even get ahead.

    Mix in a Bargain of Blood farm if need be - I can farm 16 tokens 2-boxing that quest in 45 mins including setup time. If you get a group that farms it getting 8 tokens in 30 mins is very doable.

    The token farm is only truly annoying if you dont plan ahead.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    The token farm is only truly annoying if you dont plan ahead.
    This.

    There are several quests with very good XP where tokens drop. But I guess thinking and planning is hard for some

  11. #11
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    Just because an even worse system was nearly put into place does not mean that the current one doesn't need improvement. Long time vets of this game are tripping over tokens of the 12. I don't think they realize how much of a pain it is to farm these things up for a lot of us, especially if you want to do it solo.

    Reincarnation is one of the central gameplay loops of DDO. There is no reason in the world that a greater variety of quests shouldn't drop tokens and fragments. You should not have to stop what you are doing and run Cannith Challenges and a handful of quests until your eyes bleed for a week or two every time you want to reincarnate. I have a character right now that I am flipping to reincarnate, and I just can't bring myself to go through the grind again.

    I am grateful to the past players that stood up against a change that would have broken the game entirely. But pretending that the system we have now is great for everyone is not going to get any movement towards further improvements. The current system absolutely is designed to push us to the item shop, for a progression path that is no longer optional to get a character that is up to par for most PuGs.
    You do have another options its the store..... it amazes me that you have a free option or a pay option take your pick keep looking the gifted horse in the mouth. The funny thing is if u setup a couple of token farm tokens you run one or two quests with them and kill 10 minutes or so for a few tokens a day or week and next thing you will have a stack of tokens.

    31 quests that drops tokens
    9 challenges

    all you have to do is run 20 at most of that once and you will have your tokens hardly seems like your going out of your way unless of course your slaying your way to 30.

    If they wanted you to item shop they would remove the tokens period.

    By the time you hit 20 you should already be more than ready to pug in epics and if your not that is no fault of SSG but more likely yours.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Rather than TR at 20 you should consider going the full 1-30 for an additional epic past live. Run Von3+4, LoD+Servants, WK+OOB and Spies on R1 and Elite. Thats quite good xp and nets you just about the tokens you need to TR. Add in EH and EN runs if you like - still good xp and some more tokens earned.

    If you run an iconic life once in a while you will even get ahead.

    Mix in a Bargain of Blood farm if need be - I can farm 16 tokens 2-boxing that quest in 45 mins including setup time. If you get a group that farms it getting 8 tokens in 30 mins is very doable.

    The token farm is only truly annoying if you dont plan ahead.
    Ah, to be clear I don't think farming them is hard, I think it's mind-numbing and pigeon-holey, and I'm not asking only for myself but for others who have been rather irritated upon reaching "i want to reincarnate" -point whom I've been chatting with in public groups. You are more or less forced to a specific route every time instead of utilizing the variety that the game offers, and you are even incentivized to beg for others to help pass these very specific yields over, to join do things they wouldn't do just to go out of their way to pass tokens - or just resort to multiboxing and having a bot account or multiple passing them over. That's why I was confused as to why this is when there are existing systems inside the game already that could do it better.

    "It's only truly annoying if you don't plan ahead" said someone who has planned multiboxing farm methods to work around the system and suggests to do the same - I'd say that is proving my point to an extent, no? Though it is not the worst grind in the game, it is not reeeeally an optional one and it feels out-of-place in a way that clunks progression upon hitting ~~20. Ok, there are these cool and fun quests I'd like to do this time - but wait, I'm gonna need like a thousand tokens and reinc at some point anyway so I'll just grit my teeth and do these same old same quests again, and again. I don't think it's healthy for the game at all, at least to retain newer players and keep them excited about the reincarnation wheel.

    @smokejumper Regarding the "Fragments of the Twelve" those drop in the exact same quests that drop Tokens (afaik nowhere else? correct me if I'm wrong), so it doesn't really help with the part that you need to do the same quests every playthrough. Those quests are attractive enough already in that they give enough experience to warrant doing them anyway - mostly looking at VoN 3/4/5/6, LoD chain, Wizking.

    Example solution:
    * Those same quests that drop tokens currently could provide a compareable extra amount of Commendations of Valor to their current token yields if their inherent value needs boosting
    * Players could use Commendations of Valor to also purchase the Heroic Class/Racial hearts.
    Boom, no more pigeonholing to do a specific subset of quests every life to the point of repetition and resorting to multiboxing and begging, just do any Epic quests. Tokens could still exist for their non-Heart purposes - or maybe even Hearts as well. Just not the *only* way besides $$ and narrowed down repetition to go about it. To make the transition even smoother, Commendations of Valor could start dropping at quests 15+, to a lesser extent than in Epics... Options, options. But that is such a simple change too, unless there is some gigantic Lore reason - but at this point I'll probably accept that the reasons behind the current system have everything to do with the monetization of the game and every single component in it and move on from the topic.

    Thanks for all the tips and answers clarifying the background & the gist of it!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mglaxix View Post
    You do have another options its the store..... it amazes me that you have a free option or a pay option take your pick keep looking the gifted horse in the mouth. The funny thing is if u setup a couple of token farm tokens you run one or two quests with them and kill 10 minutes or so for a few tokens a day or week and next thing you will have a stack of tokens.

    31 quests that drops tokens
    9 challenges

    all you have to do is run 20 at most of that once and you will have your tokens hardly seems like your going out of your way unless of course your slaying your way to 30.

    If they wanted you to item shop they would remove the tokens period.

    By the time you hit 20 you should already be more than ready to pug in epics and if your not that is no fault of SSG but more likely yours.
    If you just want to reincarnate as soon as possible after you hit 20 and haven't spent a ton of time in epics on some other character or life, I can assure you you are not going to have enough from normal gameplay. You are in for a very repetitive grind.
    Last edited by yfernbottom; 06-22-2020 at 04:17 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    If you just want to reincarnate as soon as possible after you hit 20 and haven't spent a ton of time in epics on some other character or life, I can assure you you are not going to have enough from normal gameplay. You are in for a very repetitive grind.
    30 - 45 minutes at most and I would have my 20 tokens

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mglaxix View Post
    30 - 45 minutes at most and I would have my 20 tokens
    I will bite. Without having others pass you tokens - how do you get 20 tokens in 30-45 mins on a level 20 character?
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  16. #16
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I will bite. Without having others pass you tokens - how do you get 20 tokens in 30-45 mins on a level 20 character?
    I don't remember saying I would not have anyone pass to me. If you plan to tr quickly you make the most of your time and effort. I know plenty of people who never tr and are willing to pass to me as well.

    I have six full accounts now do I need to say anymore thank you SSG. BoB can be completed in under 5 minutes. 6 pulls 6 tokens x 4 runs like I said 30 - 45 minutes easy enough. I see plenty of people invest that much time in a single Devil assault run and not get that amount of tokens or even close.

    Took me 3 days to cap 20 on my 6 characters dragging them all on a buddy bonus weekend don't tell me that is not a wise investment because for me that is only the tip of the iceberg on what I will use my alt accounts for now.

    Storm the beaches is short and easy at 20 if you do it correctly. Lords of Dust as well.

    I could name a few more but there is no point.

    I don't have any reason to cap 20 and tr without going to 30 for an Etr in today's game. Unless I am on an iconic.

    I learned my lessons long ago on how to farm tokens quickly and efficiently wasting time and energy is counter productive to the tr process. I farm on my alts now and just pass and bank a first lifer is more than capable of farming tokens easy enough especially when they can be level 30 doing it for my main. People that don't understand what alts can be utilized for don't make the most of their alts. I had 14 capped alts at one time. I would literally have all the new loot in one pass of my alts through new content in the first week of release including passing to my tr partner what they did not pull.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    Just because an even worse system was nearly put into place does not mean that the current one doesn't need improvement.
    It is amazing people here are actually defending the old system as if they have nothing better to do but argue against valid points.

  18. #18
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woq View Post
    The token farm is the most pointless mind numbing grind out there with the limited post-20 pre-25 quests you get them from that grant more or less just experience and tokens and nothing else of note - and oddly enough there is a really functional tried and true system that COULD work for them already in place in the Commendations of Valor. Reincarnation is the backbone of this game, yet a key part of it is held back like this. Why isn't there a "Heroic Commendation" you could use to farm up Tokens of the Twelve? Or even just having the 20-30 commendations from quests be possible to turn in for Tokens of the Twelve, and/or also drop pre20?

    What's the reasoning behind this design? I'm looking for something positive to see to make me feel less bad about doing it.
    Many systems in the game are very old and out dated. With that being said though the system we have is FAR better than the alternative that was proposed quite some time ago (I can't remember it exactly, I just know it was a terrible idea). It wouldn't surprise me if this sort of thing is on Lynnabel's radar since she said in the last Ask the Devs on DDOcast that she wants to remove a crafting system per update. Whether this would constitute a crafting system is another matter entirely but we shall see.

    Stoner81.

  19. #19
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    I have the same issue myself with gathering tokens for a TR at 20.
    So much so that this life will be run to 30 simply to restock my token supply. (Yes, including fragments.)

    I agree with the OP and some others: it's time to move past the old "Purchase a Heart of Wood to TR" solution.
    Some of you have a perspective of "Run with 5 others and ask them to give you the tokens." Which is true but not always possible/ desired. (Friends may not be online, may prefer solo.)

    Sometimes you have to work with the system.
    Sometimes it's time for the system to work with you.

    Token grinding is an old system, from a lower level cap. Now, with a new level cap being implemented "soon", it's time for the game to reduce the token grind or tie Commendations into the system along with Tokens. Seeds should support all HoW at this point anyway.
    In all posts: Assume I'm just providing a personal opinion rather than trying to speak for everyone.
    *All posts should be taken as humorously intended and if you are struggling to decide if I insulted you; I didn't.

  20. #20
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zooble View Post
    It is amazing people here are actually defending the old system as if they have nothing better to do but argue against valid points.
    Some of us are smart enough to understand the results of a dev corrupt a wish. You have been granted a completely and totally free way to heroic tr racial tr iconic tr and epic tr and your still not happy hmmmmm....... lets see if your happy with the new system or if you say to yourself man I shoulda kept my mouth shut and just left it alone. Only time will tell I guess if you can get them completely free or have to purchase an expansion or buy them in the store only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevth View Post
    I have the same issue myself with gathering tokens for a TR at 20.
    So much so that this life will be run to 30 simply to restock my token supply. (Yes, including fragments.)

    I agree with the OP and some others: it's time to move past the old "Purchase a Heart of Wood to TR" solution.
    Some of you have a perspective of "Run with 5 others and ask them to give you the tokens." Which is true but not always possible/ desired. (Friends may not be online, may prefer solo.)

    Sometimes you have to work with the system.
    Sometimes it's time for the system to work with you.

    Token grinding is an old system, from a lower level cap. Now, with a new level cap being implemented "soon", it's time for the game to reduce the token grind or tie Commendations into the system along with Tokens. Seeds should support all HoW at this point anyway.
    Seeds will never happen for heroic or racial hearts in my opinion some of us are sitting on thousands upon thousands of seeds.

    I simply ask them to do the same thing I do for them when they need something regardless if it is tokens, gear, or helping to learn a quest. I scratch their back because they scratch mine.

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