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  1. #1
    Associate Producer Cocomajobo's Avatar
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    Default U51 Early Preview: Epic Feats, Destiny Feats, and Legendary Feats Changes

    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    In this new framework we are moving some specific power out of the ED trees and into the into the Epic and Destiny feats to help reduce the power spike in the Destinies themselves while still retaining original player power. This also let us boost feats that are currently underperforming. Our other goal with this pass was to spread out power that is currently concentrated in the upper end of the game and bring it lower so that players can access it sooner. So, we've both added power to epic/destiny feats and made them available at lower levels.

    We also wanted to make the Legendary "Scion of" Feats provide more of a competitive choice, which meant boosting the non-Fire feats considerably in the spellcasting department. Finally, we are removing the Epic Skill feats from the game, which will cut down on feat clutter considerably.

    Changes in Teal

    Epic Feats
    Epic Power (autogranted feat)
    +3 Melee Power, +3 Ranged Power, +6 Universal Spell Power and -1% to the Spell Point cost of all spells.
    now also provides +1 spellcast level with all casting classes for every 2 times this feat is applied (for a total of +5 to all casting classes at level 30)

    Destiny Feats:
    ALL DESTINY FEATS NO LONGER CONTAIN SPHERE REQUIREMENTS

    Epic Spellpower (all types)
    Provides +20 Spellpower with the associated elemental type
    Now also provides +10% spell critical damage with the appropriate elemental type

    Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
    Removed from the game!

    Dire Charge
    Dire Charge is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Legendary Dreadnought.

    Mass Frog
    Mass Frog is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Primal Avatar.

    Destiny Feats with NO MIN LEVEL
    Now have Min Level 22

    Destiny Feats with Min Level 28
    Now have Min Level 25

    Destiny Feats with min Level 29
    Now have Min Level 28

    Legendary Feats
    Scion of Earth
    • +4 to the DCs of Conjuration and Transmutation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
    • +20 PRR
    • +10 Acid and Poison Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Acid and Poison Spell Critical Damage
    • Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)


    Scion of Air
    • +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
    • +4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
    • +10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Electric Spell Critical Damage
    • Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)


    Scion of Fire
    • No longer grants +25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
    • +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
    • +10 PRR, +10 MRR
    • +10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Fire Spell Critical Damage
    • Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)


    Scion of Water
    • No longer grants +200 Maximum Spell Points
    • +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
    • +20 MRR
    • +10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Cold Spell Critical Damage
    • Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)


    Scion of Feywild
    • +10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Sonic Spell Critical Damage
    • +4 to the DCs of Enchantment and Illusion spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
    • Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
    • +20 Healing Amp


    Scion of Shadowfell
    • +4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
    • +10 Negative Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Negative Spell Critical Damage. (note that the Poison Spellpower moved to the Scion of Earth feat)
    • +20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
    • Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.


    Scion of Mechanus
    • +20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power, +20% Repair and Rust Spell Critical Damage
    • +20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
    • +10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
    • Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing


    Scion of Celestia
    • +20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
    • +20% Positive, Light, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
    • +150 Maximum Hit Points
    • +4 to Will Saves


    As a reminder, there are no more Sphere requirements (because there are no more Spheres), and any character may choose any feat from the Destiny feat list assuming they meet the other prerequisites (if any). This is incredibly important because it means that even characters who are brand new to Epics can choose from the same pool of Feats that an established player can without needing to grind out Epic Destiny XP.

    We think these changes in combination with the Epic/Destiny Feat Tie-Ins in the trees themselves will create a far more compelling level-up flow for Epic play, and allow players to explore new and exciting combinations and builds without worrying about Destiny XP requirements.
    Last edited by Cocomajobo; 06-15-2021 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    Dire Charge
    Dire Charge is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Legendary Dreadnought.
    This sounds like it will make use of Legendary Dreadnought pretty much obligatory for any melee. Unless Dire Charge becomes less uniquely powerful I guess, by either nerfing it or bringing up other mass CC abilities

    EDIT: and they nerfed its dc by 5 and made it a tier 5 ability so you not only have to dip into Dreadnought to get it, you have to max it, to the exclusion of anything else
    Last edited by arminius; 06-15-2021 at 03:04 PM.
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  3. #3
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    What happens in these cases?

    - I have a level 22 character I don't play very often. Assuming she's the same when this hits live, how do I get that first ED feat? I particularly remember my Undying Court FvS not having Undying Call for the longest time because it was changed from enhancement to feat after she was past L6, until I LR'd her after the FvS revamp. I really don't want this situation again.

    - I have a level 27 character I don't play very often. Might make 28, might not (actually, I think I might be able to take it but I'm working towards filling Primal EDs for Doubleshot, maybe? IDK). I'm assuming that the (currently) L26 feat will just get shoved into proper place, but what about the L28 feat that's now L25? (See also above scenario.) Also, the L26 feat was Epic Disable Device because literally it was that or Toughness 'cause first life and artificer so forced into wrong sphere and yada yada. And honestly, I mighta taken Toughness. But assuming I took Epic DD, what happens?

    - Similarly, I have a character who took Mass Frog; I know plenty of people who have taken Dire Charge. What happens to them?

    - And just general "Well, you took lousy, substandard feats because you needed to take SOMETHING and you're first life and forced to start off from the entirely wrong sphere from what you WANT..."?

    ...basically what I'm asking is, are free +0 Lesser Hearts for epic characters going to be a thing?
    "Ignorance killed the cat, sir; curiosity was framed."
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  4. #4
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    Ill give more feedback, only got through the core framework write up and I feel like my wife left me. Once I am done crying over how bad level gating ED is, enough so I can read more, I'll finish reading and do some testing.
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  5. #5
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    I like that you moved things like Mass frog to a destiny tree, and dire charge.. because to me, it seems like when you pick your destiny trees this is how your molding your character .. a person in LD is a warrior type dps build, and they should be able to charge.. it seemed weird that say a wizard who is specializing in magic casting trees, can all of a sudden do a melee charge into a group of monsters.. that seems odd. Just like a Warrior who happened ot have a high wisdom for whatever reason.. hes focused on melee stuff, but hey i can turn things into frogs... it seems odd. So these new changes of where your moving them, make a lot more sense.
    I get that some people wont like it because it may have fit into their play style, but it seems more realistic this way.
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  6. #6

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    Has Scion of the Astral Plane and Scion of the Ethereal Plane feats been removed?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAO View Post
    Has Scion of the Astral Plane and Scion of the Ethereal Plane feats been removed?
    No, they are just not changing and therefore weren't in the above list.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

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  8. #8
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arminius View Post
    This sounds like it will make use of Legendary Dreadnought pretty much obligatory for any melee. Unless Dire Charge becomes less uniquely powerful I guess, by either nerfing it or bringing up other mass CC abilities

    EDIT: and they nerfed its dc by 5 and made it a tier 5 ability so you not only have to dip into Dreadnought to get it, you have to max it, to the exclusion of anything else
    Good change IMO. Mandatory feats are boring.
    Thelanis

  9. #9
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    Epic Spellpower (all types)
    Provides +20 Spellpower with the associated elemental type
    Now also provides +10% spell critical damage with the appropriate elemental type

    [
    While the spell crit chance is nice, +20 is still pretty weak for a epic feat.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Rosze's Avatar
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    Default Max caster lvls?

    “now also provides +1 spellcast level with all casting classes for every 2 times this feat is applied (for a total of +5 to all casting classes at level 30)”

    Does this also increase spells max caster lvl that was an issue for some casters where their spells are capped at lvl 15 even though their caster lvl is around 40.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Disclaimer
    Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

    Dire Charge is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Legendary Dreadnought.

    Mass Frog is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Primal Avatar.
    After a quick read - these two are the most concerning / disappointing to see. Can you explain more why these two feats were removed and added to ED?
    Several of my builds will be busted due to this change - feels like a major Nerf....

    I have one alt that used both of these....
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    After a quick read - these two are the most concerning / disappointing to see. Can you explain more why these two feats were removed and added to ED?
    Several of my builds will be busted due to this change - feels like a major Nerf....

    I have one alt that used both of these....

    Yeah.. .dont like playing a boring healer, at least you can frog once in awhile. PSYCH SCREW YOU BUDDY

    Melee not in LD? no dire charge? beat it
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  13. #13
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorachtin View Post
    Melee not in LD? no dire charge? beat it
    Yep, the only mass CC available to melee in a game where damage avoidance is the key to survival. I am not sure what I was expecting but it was definitely better than this.

    It looks like what they've done is beat down the little bits that stick out, that make the game unique with creative build combinations. Everything has been pushed through a Uniformizer
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  14. #14
    Community Member arminius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Good change IMO. Mandatory feats are boring.
    Yep, effectiveness is so blasé. Ineffectiveness is where all the cool kids hang out these days!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by arminius View Post
    Yep, the only mass CC available to melee in a game where damage avoidance is the key to survival. I am not sure what I was expecting but it was definitely better than this.

    It looks like what they've done is beat down the little bits that stick out, that make the game unique with creative build combinations. Everything has been pushed through a Uniformizer
    I mean, to be fair, this will probably tickle casuals hearts I can see that. End game reaper 10 players will find ways to make it work. Mid tier players are getting worked over the most here.
    Triple All

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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    After a quick read - these two are the most concerning / disappointing to see. Can you explain more why these two feats were removed and added to ED?
    Several of my builds will be busted due to this change - feels like a major Nerf....

    I have one alt that used both of these....
    Yes, we can!

    To start, something specific to Mass Frog: Mass Frog has a known, longstanding issue with its Caster Level that is important when it comes to Spell Resistance checks made when enemies have Mass Frog cast on them. Mass Frog is an Epic Class Feat (much like Favored Enemy feats are Ranger Class Feats). Spells cast from Class Feats use your Class Level for their Caster Level, which means your effective Caster Level for Mass Frog is 10, far lower than you'd need to land the spell on most relevant enemies with Spell Resistance. This is not something we can easily fix without significant reworks to the Spell system or overly-cumbersome background adjusting. The best way to make it effective again is to make it no longer be a Class Feat. That alone isn't the reason it landed in Destinies, but it is a reason we knew it needed to move.

    Looking at both of these feats, they are taken way more than most of their Destiny Feat counterparts. Granted, there's a case to be made for "the other Destiny Feats aren't that good, you should bring them up instead"; in the future, we may improve the other Destiny feats but that argument doesn't change the rest of why we wanted to move these two skills. What these two feats have in common is:
    1. They are available to any character (provided you have leveled the relevant Destinies once ever)
    2. They are AOE, hitting many nearby enemies
    3. Their effectiveness in combat is high relative to the amount of investment needed to use them (DCs needed to land them are somewhat low relative to other abilities and/or dumping DCs and relying on the occasional nat-1 is considered a worthwhile use case)
    4. They're very often taken on builds whose archetypes do not match the intended archetypes of the skill.


    In short, we don't feel it's healthy for the game for this kind (and strength) of ability to be available at the level of investment Epic Destiny feats currently provide, especially as you will no longer be required to complete Destiny Spheres in order to get Destiny feats when this Destiny Pass goes Live. And especially as these two feats seem to be considered mandatory right now on too many builds.

    As a powerful Primal Transmutation spell, we felt the new Primal Avatar T5 was a good place for Mass Frog. You must invest in a lot of Primal Avatar (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

    As a powerful Martial ability with a Tactical effect (stunning) we felt the new Legendary Dreadnought T5 was a good place for Dire Charge. You must invest in a lot of Dreadnought (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

    Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  17. #17
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    So Am I right here in that

    Destiny Feats with Min Level 28
    Now have Min Level 25

    Destiny Feats with min Level 29
    Now have Min Level 28

    BUT
    Destiny Feats with a min Level 26 are STILL lvl26?
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  18. #18
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with;
    OMG, now that is telling him/her
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Yes, we can!

    [B]
    Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

    Are there plans to fix up the other high level Destiny Feats like Elusive Target, Deific Warding, Hell Ball, Spirit Blades, Guardian Angel, Holy Strikes and such? Those are all pretty bad choices which is why every melee just defaults to Dire Charge and casters to Mass Frog.

  20. #20
    Community Member Peter_Principle's Avatar
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    Another vote for fixing Hellball. It's a ML:26 feat, it should at least be as useful as a 9th level spell. And the graphics on it? They convey nothing of the sense of it being a devastating ball from Hell.
    FYI, when I summon an earth elemental, it's not a "he," it's a "she." And her name is Pebbles.

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