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  1. #1
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    Default Lesser Reincarnation with 3 prior classes is borked

    Hi,

    I've reported this in-game, however since my previous ticket regarding a game bug has remained open for the past 8 months without any answer, perhaps it's worth writing here in the forums too, in the hope that someone will actually read it.

    A couple of days ago I used a lesser heart of wood +20 in order to change from a level 16 Artificer, Level 2 Monk, Level 2 Paladin into a level 20 Favored Soul. However it was impossible to select Favored Soul levels, neither at level 1 nor afterwards, as there were 3 prior classes still in the prior-level queue. These should have been completely deleted when using a Heart +20, hence the bug report. As a workaround I had to use an additional Heart +20, the first reincarnation to reduce my classes to below 3 and then a second Heart +20 to reincarnate as planned.
    Please fix the bug and, more importantly for me at the moment, please replace the second Heart +20 that I had to use! Thank you.

    In-game character is Raphe on the Cannith server

  2. #2
    Uber Completionist rabidfox's Avatar
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    Default

    It does give you warning about how it works for those who are triple classes.


  3. #3
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    This is not a bug, this is working as intended

    You have 3 classes, the limit is 3 classes. You are trying to add a 4th class to the list

    If the classes with low #'s are towards the front

    PPMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    You can change the 1st 2 Ps to an A or M, which would allow you to change all of the other levels to F as once you have removed the last P you are now down to two classes in the list

    Since the Heart + doesn't force you to change levels it holds on to the list of classes in the order you took them to make it easier to go back through the flow.

    The issue you ran into only occurs if switching from 3 classes to a 4th class not currently in the list

    I believe there are outside resources like DDO Wiki as well as forum discussions that go over how to convert a character as you outlined. Short of completely starting over, it is a two-pass process to accomplish your goal. There used to be a +5 with the +20 purchase to help with this process.

  4. #4
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    This is not a bug, this is working as intended

    You have 3 classes, the limit is 3 classes. You are trying to add a 4th class to the list

    ...
    I am not willing to let the devs off the hook that easily. It is working as coded which was coded with poor intent. There is no reason why the TR system could not handle what the OP was trying to do. It could check if the heart had enough + to swap a class and allow it and allow a valid class combination to be built. It is poorly coded and should be called a bug whether or not it works as intended because it works so poorly.

    If I were Tolero, i would get the team to scrap the LR(and ER) process and allow the class structure to be created much like the character builder tool. Validate once things are picked.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    I am not willing to let the devs off the hook that easily. It is working as coded which was coded with poor intent. There is no reason why the TR system could not handle what the OP was trying to do. It could check if the heart had enough + to swap a class and allow it and allow a valid class combination to be built. It is poorly coded and should be called a bug whether or not it works as intended because it works so poorly.

    If I were Tolero, i would get the team to scrap the LR(and ER) process and allow the class structure to be created much like the character builder tool. Validate once things are picked.
    You are outlining a process where the user outlines their classes and then executes that. Sure that could be done, but that is a whole new system. Again, this is not a bug, it is working as intended by the system choice. I will concede there are better ways to accomplish this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabidfox View Post
    It does give you warning about how it works for those who are triple classes.

    RTFM, Ouch. Ok, looks like I'm going to have to chalk this one up to (painful) experience. Badly designed, to be sure, but documented as such too.

  7. #7
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    You are outlining a process where the user outlines their classes and then executes that. Sure that could be done, but that is a whole new system. Again, this is not a bug, it is working as intended by the system choice. I will concede there are better ways to accomplish this.
    Semantics, I guess, but a bug in requirements is still a bug IMHO. If an app provides the area of a circle by using (3.1 * r squared) the user will be still be displeased regardless of the developers intent. Using 3.1 for pi doesn't make them feel better just because the dev buried a note in the user manual to let them know that pi has been approximated to 3.1.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    Semantics, I guess, but a bug in requirements is still a bug IMHO.
    It's still warranted.

    If your 16/2/2 build used a +1 heart, it can't be allowed to select FvS as a new class because then you'd have four classes at the end of reincarnation

    If your 16/2/2 build used a +5 heart, there are several ways it could go, but a problematic one is if you end up 11/5/2/2. Should you be allowed to reincarnate because it's possible that you could end up with a viable split? If so, since the LR process is iterative (one level at a time) rather than simultaneous (rework all at once), what controls are put in place that prevent the game-breaking options?

    The more complex you make the LR control mechanisms, the more likely players are to find an exploit that allows quadruple-classing. From a development standpoint, a warning takes much less of a headache. With that disclaimer, it's also acceptable because this is far from the most frustrating aspect of 3.5e

  9. #9
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    This is not a bug, this is working as intended
    Confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    I am not willing to let the devs off the hook that easily. It is working as coded which was coded with poor intent.
    A +# LHoW was coded as a welcome "improvement" from its predecessor, the generic Lesser HoW. Perhaps with a painful dose of short-sightedness, but not with poor intent. Not a good thing, but nor uncommon in engineering of any stripe.

    It's always easier to criticize from a position of hindsight.

    Quote Originally Posted by CororHH View Post
    RTFM, Ouch... Badly designed, to be sure, but documented as such too.
    For what little it's worth, you're not alone - this happens often enough that I've copy/saved the below. I posted this not too long ago, but here it is again...



    My "How +# Hearts work (and why they work that way...) ":

    I was just made aware that I have a lesser heart of wood and a +20 lesser heart of wood in my inventory.
    All characters currently start with one (1) Lesser Heart of Wood. Any character that existed before the Enhancement Tree revision (U19, latter half of '13) received a +20 Heart. There were some other historic changes that gave certain character types (clerics, druids) a +# HoW. These will automatically appear in personal or bank Inventory when you first log on to the new/old character.

    Not exactly sure how this works, but I'm thinking it will let me totally respec my character aside from base stats? Is that right?
    Yes and no.

    It's important to understand how the lesser HoW works, because the +20 is an awkward "improvement" on that process.

    The lesser allows you to "erase" your character, but (this is the important part!) it remembers all the classes you took in order. Then it allows you to "rebuild" that character, one level at a time, taking the same classes, in the same order, that you took before. So, you can redo stats, feats, skills, etc etc - but you have to take the same classes, in that order, which are all on record.

    A +# Heart does the exact same thing, using the exact same procedure (and based on the same code!), BUT you can also change the class for a number of levels up to that #. The trick is that you can never break the "3 classes max" multi-classing rule - and, exactly as in the Lesser Heart, the process remembers all the classes you had taken, present and future, and considers all those through the whole process, every level you "redo". So, you can change a A/B dual-class into a A/B/C multi because you're never going over "3 classes max". Same with changing an AB into an AC, since, again, you never go over "3", and actually remove the 3rd, B, before you end (i.e. A+B -> A+B+C -> A+C).

    But it's when you add "D" that things get tricky! You can't change a A/B into a A/C/D or even a C/D if, at any level, present or future, your classes would include A+B+C+D - because that's four, and that breaks the rule. You have to remove the last example of that unwanted class (B) as you add the first example of the 4th (D), thus keeping the current total of classes, including present and future levels, at a max of 3. You have to remove the last trace of B as you add the first level of D, so A+B+C = 3 before, and A+C+D = 3 after, remembering this includes all future levels as well.

    (In practice, this means that to change some multi-class mix ABC to multiclass mix XYZ can require more than 1 Heart - first to remove some of the unwanted multiclasses, the later to swap the new ones in. It all depends on "when" you took the class(es) you want removed, and when you want to add the new class(es). Can take some mental acrobatics to get it done.)

    Think of how the lesser works, understand that the process counts all classes for present and future levels, plan your build with a Character Planner (so you have a concrete, no-surprises blueprint to follow), and you'll be fine.

    (See also: DDO Wiki: Lesser Reincarnation)
    The Basics of DDO / "Select Adventure Pack" Sales & "How to choose an Adventure Pack"

    "It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." Bill Murray

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