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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevth View Post
    Side effects will be identical to some of the US Pharma commercials...
    I'm always been amused by some of the side effects listed in the commercials. Some of them can be shortened to "Warning: Side-effects may include death."

  2. #22
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    The traditional MMO is basically dead because f2p/p2w is much more lucrative, and it's even more lucrative to make them multi-platform, which necessitates making games that are actually playable on console.

    DDO's got a few too many buttons for that.

  3. #23
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyMaxson View Post
    The traditional MMO is basically dead because f2p/p2w is much more lucrative, and it's even more lucrative to make them multi-platform, which necessitates making games that are actually playable on console.

    DDO's got a few too many buttons for that.
    The new generation of gamers want it all easy. Pffft.
    In my day, we used our imaginations! (Text based games complete with typed command actions, Num-Pad for directions to move and learning the room descriptions to recognize a change...)
    Our mediation was to the sound of the router loading up!

    Now you kids want a paddle controller and reliable voip.
    In all posts: Assume I'm just providing a personal opinion rather than trying to speak for everyone.
    *All posts should be taken as humorously intended and if you are struggling to decide if I insulted you; I didn't.

  4. #24
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    The future is very hard to predict.

    There will never be one perfect game.

    What sounds great in a speech rarely works when implemented.

    Real life factors such as leisure time and wealth will always put constraints on the possibilities of game life.

    I have yet to find a game world that meets even 10% of my personal desires.

    At any given point in time, possibility is a whole lot bigger than current human imagination meaning their is always hope for the future.
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  5. #25

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    Corpse retrievals in EQ were no joke sometimes. If you died xp grinding in an outdoor zone or something similar, it was not a big deal. But I remember our raid wiping in Plane of Fear when it first got released, and it was not easy to recover from. You couldn't just run back in there with no equipment to get your corpse, you will get killed again and lose even more xp. EQ is much easier now with multiple ways to recover/summon corpses. Probably a good thing, if failure is too punishing, many people won't even attempt the content.

  6. #26
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    The future is very hard to predict.
    It is imho very EASY to predict :

    Games will become more and more streamlined. Just like cars do.
    Everything that players don't like or consider as a chore will be taken away.
    Every mechanic stuff will be taken away from the player.
    And in general, games will become more and more action games. More action games.
    Everything will move even closer to the genre of Action-RPGs.
    And everything will be made to cater more extrovert people.
    "You are a Tiefling. And a Cleric, with the Domain of the Sun. Doesn't that contradict each other ?" "No, all my friends are playing evil. I found that so boring that I decided to be on the good side. And, besides, Sun and Fire, where is the difference, really ?"

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolani View Post
    Corpse retrievals in EQ were no joke sometimes. If you died xp grinding in an outdoor zone or something similar, it was not a big deal. But I remember our raid wiping in Plane of Fear when it first got released, and it was not easy to recover from. You couldn't just run back in there with no equipment to get your corpse, you will get killed again and lose even more xp. EQ is much easier now with multiple ways to recover/summon corpses. Probably a good thing, if failure is too punishing, many people won't even attempt the content.
    Had a guildie lose their corpse and all their equipped gear in the Plane of Fear. That means they couldn't retrieve it for 2 weeks, which was the corpse timer at the time. That fiasco caused multiple people to lose their corpses as multiple recovery attempts were made during that 2 week period and none of them were successful. Just breaking into the zone in was a chore of herculean proportions due to the crappy pathing and agro of the mobs.

  8. #28
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    I don´t care. I never been an MMO player but I have ever been a DDO player. Yes, there are some mmo gamers that play DDO but most that I know are D&D players that play DDO to have the feel of pnp rpg.

    I would not play it if it didn´t had the D&D brand and atari brand at the start.

    Even now I get sad every time the developers do solutions outside of D&D3.5 like the tabaxi race that seens to be more based on 5.0 version of D&D. Not because the solution don´t work but because they throw away solutions that others developers had. Same way I don´t care for extra levels, would rather have more spells, feats and options or epic past lifes. The old system with twists of fate was way more D&D then the actual one.

    So I rather see every content of the game working properly and giving to us, the player many quality of life changes than to go for one more hamster wheel with a ton of bugs that will not be solved until the next big thing. Saltmarsh and feywild still have quest bugs that don´t let we finish it, in No Refunds I get a TON of invisible walls or some crazy acid poligon festival on my screen.

  9. #29
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Every copy of the VR version of the game better come with a few dozen free barf bags.
    like being on a boat, after a couple of runs, your inner ear adjusts and you no longer have issues.
    unless you really prone to motion sickness
    When this game is gone, I will not cry a single tear. It is just part of the circle of life.

  10. #30
    Community Member Annex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    It is imho very EASY to predict :

    Games will become more and more streamlined. Just like cars do.
    Everything that players don't like or consider as a chore will be taken away.
    Every mechanic stuff will be taken away from the player.
    And in general, games will become more and more action games. More action games.
    Everything will move even closer to the genre of Action-RPGs.
    And everything will be made to cater more extrovert people.
    In my opinion, your view is myopic in the extreme. You focus on a small selection of titles while completely ignoring the amazing variety of games coming from independent developers.
    Sophie Car Burglar - Creator, Dreamer, Explorer - Happy yet Sad - Seeker of Beauty and Wonder
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  11. #31
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    like being on a boat, after a couple of runs, your inner ear adjusts and you no longer have issues.
    unless you really prone to motion sickness
    That really doesn’t make it sound any better

    Don’t forget the fatigue wearing an off balance googles

    VR would do better in something like a lightweight full motorcycle helmet at least it would be balanced but then it would have to be sized to the individual instead of once size fits most adjustable strap madness cutting into your dome

    Even when it’s better it won’t kill Console or PC anytime soon

    How many players play DDO in 1st person? I doubt it’s many even for ranged which can play very much like a FPS being in 1st person instead of 3rd is extremely inconvenient in so many ways
    Last edited by Oxarhamar; 05-14-2022 at 10:43 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    In my opinion, your view is myopic in the extreme. You focus on a small selection of titles while completely ignoring the amazing variety of games coming from independent developers.
    Alrik is sort of partially correct with his assessment I think but he also ignores anything that doesn't conform to his cynical world view. Games will become more action orientated as due to technological advances games are no longer limited to being either instance based action (like DDO or Vindictus) or open world pseudo turn based (like WoW or LOTRO). The thing that he is misunderstanding though is that a more action oriented game now no longer has to come at the cost of depth. In his view action means lack of depth plain and simple but upcoming games like Ashes of creation or Pantheon are showing that they can keep a huge level of depth and customization alongside active combat. One is no longer coming at the cost of the other. It's just like the cars he mentioned his post. They may be more streamlined but they are also a lot more complex. He won't understand that aspect though as all he will allow himself to see is the streamlined part.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weemadarthur View Post
    Alrik is sort of partially correct with his assessment I think but he also ignores anything that doesn't conform to his cynical world view. Games will become more action orientated as due to technological advances games are no longer limited to being either instance based action (like DDO or Vindictus) or open world pseudo turn based (like WoW or LOTRO). The thing that he is misunderstanding though is that a more action oriented game now no longer has to come at the cost of depth. In his view action means lack of depth plain and simple but upcoming games like Ashes of creation or Pantheon are showing that they can keep a huge level of depth and customization alongside active combat. One is no longer coming at the cost of the other. It's just like the cars he mentioned his post. They may be more streamlined but they are also a lot more complex. He won't understand that aspect though as all he will allow himself to see is the streamlined part.
    A couple years ago, when I was really sick, my Dad set me up with a Good Old Games account. While I am not a gamer, they send me a lot of advertisements and I sometimes read about the titles on offer. The diversity of games truly amazes me. Many role playing games they sell do not fit the action game mold and it seems like they list a bazillion role playing games in development.

    Every so often, I go looking for a new multi-player role playing game. There must be hundreds available. I remember wanting to try one based on the writings of Jane Austin.

    I definitely understand the frustration of not finding the perfect game world. I certainly cannot. My relationship with games like DDO is tumultuous at best. Based on my limited knowledge, it seems like games are exploding in diversity, but perhaps I am the one with myopia.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    wanting to try one based on the writings of Jane Austin. [..] Based on my limited knowledge, it seems like games are exploding in diversity, but perhaps I am the one with myopia.
    No, you've read the tea leaves correctly on that one. The entire game industry is a behemoth that didn't exist until the advent of PCs and (later) consoles.

    The other part I agree with is the importance of story. It matters far more than people think if you want a game with longevity. Session play only goes so far. Terra, for instance, has truly amazing action game play in an MMORPG. It's incredibly visceral. The story is so absent, though, that it remains tinier than DDO with really no hope of growing. Loved playing it. Got bored with it faster than any MMO before or since.

    The other part you mentioned indirectly was a more female oriented story and that's not something done at all well. Marketing types have cozened on to the fact that chainmail bikinis don't have broad market appeal. But, marketing-directed story doesn't work too well either. Stories have to come from within or they trip over their own contrivances.

    IMHO, something will pop up eventually that might work better for you. My niecelings both adore "Star Stable", for instance. 'Dunno anything about it other than it involves horses. That one is targeted for kids, but kids grow up. Some of them will not only remember having fun playing an MMO, but want to create them for others. More and more of those creators will be women.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    A couple years ago, when I was really sick, my Dad set me up with a Good Old Games account. While I am not a gamer, they send me a lot of advertisements and I sometimes read about the titles on offer. The diversity of games truly amazes me. Many role playing games they sell do not fit the action game mold and it seems like they list a bazillion role playing games in development.

    Every so often, I go looking for a new multi-player role playing game. There must be hundreds available. I remember wanting to try one based on the writings of Jane Austin.

    I definitely understand the frustration of not finding the perfect game world. I certainly cannot. My relationship with games like DDO is tumultuous at best. Based on my limited knowledge, it seems like games are exploding in diversity, but perhaps I am the one with myopia.
    1st up there is a big difference between an MMO and a single player game that has a multiplayer option. Most indi games fall into the latter category purely due to the costs involved in creating and running an MMO. Actual indi MMO's are rare and mostly consist of sub standard wow clones or more frequently kickstarter scams that promise to revolutionize gaming and fail to deliver (look up Chronicles of Elyria or Dreamworld to get an idea of the latter).

    Now thats said I will try and better explain what I said in my previous post as I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

    What I was trying to explain is we have been in a situation for a long time where action MMO's have mostly been shallow experiences as game devs have had to choose between action oriented game play or depth of game play. Vindictus is a great example of this as its action gameplay is probably the best I have encountered in any game (even single player ones tbh) but that comes at a cost of very shallow gameplay. Character customization is almost zero, Impactful choices are zero and you run the game from start to finish pretty much on rails. Its still a fun game (I actually enjoy it quite a bit) but it's in no way at all deep.

    We are now however entering the next evolution of MMO's. These will be games like Ashes of Creation and Pantheon. Both games look to have the same game play depth as DDO, the persistent open worlds of WoW and intense action gameplay. The issue is that due to the action gameplay and shiny graphics people like Alrik will immediately dismiss it as a shallow game experience in the same way that he will dismiss modern cars as being streamlined without also thinking about how much more complex a new car is over a car from the 80's or 90's.

    So to sum up I don't think Alrik was wrong with the fact that MMO's will become more action based and streamlined. I do however think he doesn't fully understand what that means and is therefore drawing a false conclusion from it. By contrast you have drawn what I feel is the correct conclusion (as in MMO's will continue to grow and diversify) but have drawn this conclusion from looking at the wrong place.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterski View Post
    Had a guildie lose their corpse and all their equipped gear in the Plane of Fear. That means they couldn't retrieve it for 2 weeks, which was the corpse timer at the time. That fiasco caused multiple people to lose their corpses as multiple recovery attempts were made during that 2 week period and none of them were successful. Just breaking into the zone in was a chore of herculean proportions due to the crappy pathing and agro of the mobs.
    However, in defense of the early EQ raid system, people were playing with **** jugs under the desk because just walking down the hallway to the bathroom could make the raid wipe.

    Sounds horrible but people were doing it because the content was that immersive and good.

    I remember in one of our early voice-chats a loud "Aaaaaah!!!!" from the tank because he had kicked over the boss he was ****ing in and he'd forgotten to screw the cap on tightly. Never stopped tanking during the cleanup and we got the boss down.

    Some of the fights were both long and prone to interruption by other guilds trying to steal the boss and you took your shot when you had it.

  17. #37
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    Games will become more and more streamlined. Just like cars
    It's funny you mentioned cars. Was talking about car appearance and we all agreed more or less that some time the 80s, cars lost their "decade" feel and became all the same car. You can tell right away if a car is from 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, or 70s. Between 80s and now? Not really. There a few standouts, but mostly you'd have to look closely to tell.

    I think you missed a beat for games. We've already seen a major streamlining event for MMOs. Way back near the start, people didn't always use a mouse for MMOs. It was mostly keyboard -- tab target with arrow keys to move. Both hands were on the keyboard and (imho) as a result of that, chat during play was plentiful.

    WASD+Mouse is THE singular standard for an MMO today. It's deeply wedged into everything. There's your streamlining and it's already happened. The other things you mentioned are fads. Subject to change whenever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weemadarthur View Post
    devs have had to choose between action oriented game play or depth of game play
    These two factors have no link to each other at all other than (perhaps) budget. They're completely orthogonal. Build diversity (depth) v balance (effectiveness / meta play) are more natural adversaries. DDO is a classic example of how balance suffers with an increase in build diversity.

  18. #38
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoobTheProud View Post
    However, in defense of the early EQ raid system, people were playing with **** jugs under the desk because just walking down the hallway to the bathroom could make the raid wipe.

    Sounds horrible but people were doing it because the content was that immersive and good.

    I remember in one of our early voice-chats a loud "Aaaaaah!!!!" from the tank because he had kicked over the boss he was ****ing in and he'd forgotten to screw the cap on tightly. Never stopped tanking during the cleanup and we got the boss down.

    Some of the fights were both long and prone to interruption by other guilds trying to steal the boss and you took your shot when you had it.
    Idk I think that deficating in in jars is more about the players than the game

    I tried EQ but didn’t like it went back to UO

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weemadarthur View Post
    He won't understand that aspect though as all he will allow himself to see is the streamlined part.
    The problem with your logic is that many people simply do not like action games, regardless of the "depth" there may be beneath the surface.

    I play DDO because I love the level of depth, character building, and customization beneath the surface, and because its not an action RPG. If you showed me a game that had all that same stuff but was an action RPG, I wouldn't play it because I do not like action RPGs.

  20. #40
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eantarus View Post
    The problem with your logic is that many people simply do not like action games, regardless of the "depth" there may be beneath the surface.

    I play DDO because I love the level of depth, character building, and customization beneath the surface, and because its not an action RPG. If you showed me a game that had all that same stuff but was an action RPG, I wouldn't play it because I do not like action RPGs.
    I view DDO as more of an action game

    When I think about rpg I think turn based

    I can’t stand action rpg like Dragon Age so terrible

    I did enjoy action games like Diablo

    I wouldn’t put DDO in the same boat as Diablo but I wouldn’t call it an rpg either

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