2nd life Fighter attempting 1-32 on R1 with a group – general tanking questions

[Kirilh]

Hi everyone!

First, I love DDO and appreciate the mature player base.

I am a n00b reaching out for some advice from experienced players.

Our plan...
I have my own little guild (level 40) which is just for my RL friends and I. We’re a small team of guys, all over 40. My friends are all first-lifers (joining DDO this year). We do lots of team-questing, so little solo content. We are looking for a tough dungeon experience that requires good teamwork to survive. Our plan is get to L20, reincarnate (2nd life) then to do all the Heroic content we haven’t seen on R1 (including KotB, IoD, Necropolis, Ravenloft, Gianthold, and many more), then advance to Epic and Legendary content and see how we go, hopefully continuing at R1 for most stuff. We’re not afraid of some TPKs (in fact we’re quite good at that!) but we do want to make a realistic plan so we don’t hit a dead-end in the Epic/Legendary content.

Understandings...
I have done my homework on the DDO wiki. It’s the practical weighing-up of what is important in Epic level content that is worrying me.
I understand that the game changes a lot. I am not looking for optimisation, just some good core advice about the realities of the game and solid build choices.
I have never played beyond level 20 and know very little about the realities of Epic and Legendary level content. I have played Heroic content under level 15 a lot (many alts).


My n00b questions

(on behalf of our party’s Fighter)

1
For our plan (above), will we need a dedicated tank?

We are going to be doing lots of R1 content we haven’t seen before, from level 1 to level 32. We want to experience the content, and enjoy the surprises, not look everything up on the wiki. My best guess is we will need a dedicated tank. Am I right?


2
How tank-ie will he need to be for R1 content in Epic levels?

Will he will need to “deep dive” into tanking (I have seen some Zero DPs builds)? Will he be able to afford to build his Str and spend a few feats on have a 2-hander as Plan B? I’m not asking anyone to take responsibility for our build decisions, just looking for general advice on how hard we can expect the content to be on Epic R1 or Epic Elite? I should mention our group has a number of experienced gamers and group-work is our thing. We’re just n00bs at DDO.


3
Can someone please point me to some resources that give realistic tanking advice to a 2nd lifer?

I have done some reading, starting on the ddowiki and online, but have found a lot of conflicting advice, which I understand is due to variant opinions, the different levels of content people are tackling and the evolving game rules.


4
Reality check?

I am hoping for some good general advice aimed at a 2nd life n00b tanking in R1 content (or maybe EE if I am kidding myself about R1?). It is looking like our party’s first-life Fighter will be our tank during our groups next life. He is (currently) DPS-focused (in his first-life) so will need a paradigm shift. I am interested in knowing what he should focus on. Please help me understand what is super important, what is kinda important, and what would be nice to have if he can afford to fit it in (AC? HP? PRR? MRR? Healing Amp? Saving Throws? DR? Spell Resistance?). Will Con be his prime stat? Is Str important, or a dump stat? Is intimi-tanking realistic in Epic or will he need to be capable of significant melee threat generation? Are any tactical feats worth the (significant) investment (Stun, Trip, etc) or is it too hard to get a meaningful DC? I would love to know what feats he should definitely take.


5
Dodge?

My limited understanding is that Dodge is not realistic for heavy armour wearers. Correct, or am I missing something?



Thank you very much for reading my post. I am really eager to get some good general advice from experienced players.

 

[Matuse]

Tanking is mostly reserved for high reaper or raids. In R1 and below, it's a very optional style choice. Depending on the makeup of the rest of your party, a tanker can be very, very bored. One Wizard or Sorc with mass hold monster and good DCs will freeze the entire room to be almost immediately slaughtered.

What's most important is that the whole group can take care of their own survival. Everybody should have Blurry (or one of its upgrades) and Ghostly. People should focus on having high health, on carrying elemental resists and absorbs, on good saving throws. You can't do anything if you're a soul stone, so giving up some offense in favor of a lot of defense is the way to go.

Dodge is limited by the max dex bonus on a given set of armor. But it's not that difficult to build for:
Dwarf: +3 Max dex bonus from the racial tree
Stalwart Defender: +3 Max dex bonus from class tree.
Kensai: +3 more.
Guild ship buff: +2 Max dex
Mobility feat: +2 max dex
Student of the Sword (Fighter past life active selected feat): +1 max dex per life
Sapphire of armored agility: +2 max dex bonus in a blue slot
And then the armor itself, which for heavy varies a lot but most top end armor is at +6 max dex bonus

Combine all of that together and you have up to 22 dodge possible, which is a big chunk of damage not hitting you.

 

[Stratiotis]

1. No tanks required at all...until R5ish (depending on your collective noobness). R1 raids will require tank(s)
2. No tanks really required. If R1 is a PITA, post an LFM for a vet walkthru.
3. AC/PRR/MRR/HP/HP/HP - Absorption/Resistance/Saves
4. Don't tank R1 quests...You'll never be able to solo anything.
5. Max dodge I've seen on Heavy armor full Tanky McTankerson is 17%, which really is not that great. Get it if you need it...but seriously, don't tank R1 quests.

 

[Archest]

the strengh in reaper is the catch 22 of get reaper points and do more against reaper targets.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

A tank in a static group can only help. I mean for one thing it might enable the group up skulls as you get more comfortable with it. It won't stop all deaths, but getting agro does make questing easier for everyone else.

A fighter has enough feats to get a both lines, but generally my tank will take two handed speciality at 31 which is the equivalent of the first 3 feats.

Paladin tanks are easier to build and play on characters with fewer past lifes. I will message you my first life paladin tank that is effective for R10 questing. It's a PDK that used a +1 heart and +8 tome so it may not work if those things aren't what you are interested in, but it might at least give you some ideas.

If you are looking for a good static group experience consider one person also being a stormsinger bard that isn't just a buffer, but also cc and dps.

 

[Jasparius]

Having a damage focussed or buff/CC focussed healer is more important than a tank.

FVS or Cleric with Holy Smite and Blade Barrier offence while healing, or a Bard with a lot of buffs, Stuns (SonicBlast Soundburst Shout) and Dancing balls.

Fighters and Paladins have a lot of HP and can Cleave. If you can kill the mobs fast the need for a tank reduces. Run Deleras chain for a Carnifex greataxe and obliterate everything.

Having a Wizard or Sorc for Web, Stuns, Dancing helps.

Other thing is a trapper. Traps can hurt in R1. Maximise Intelligence, Search, Spot, Disable and look for gear. Korthos and Borderlands have ok starter. I think Ceruleans Hills too. Feywild also.

Otherwise Auction House for random loot.

Just remember Reaper can be hard. Reapers can be held and danced but you need Ghostly to hit them effectively and while one Reaper is usually ok sometimes 2 or 3 or more can spawn. Have a plan for that.

Spend your Reaper points as you earn them. They add up over time.

Most of all have fun and if its not fun drop back to Elite where for sure you will do well.

 

[Vox]

For the fighter, because you are planning for reaper leveling, there's nothing wrong with them just taking 2hf feats and tank feats, because fighter gets so many.

They could then run two weapon sets and just swap between 2HF & S&B for when the need arises. Just go STR based, pick up the defender stances & q.hp%, go heavy into kensai for DPS. They could also fit in Aasimar hp% & got my back in feydark within 80ap, but it's not enough to take a capstone unless you give up on something. Still gets hp, crit mods, tanky stuff, dps stuff, qol stuff like perma MM immunity.

 

[Zaszgul]

In the vast majority of the game, need for tanks is negated by either strong aoe CC or overwhelming aoe DPS. This is why so many people will just solo r4 all the way to level 34, as one or the other (or even both) is available to most classes.

The step up from elite to R1 is big, but the step from R1 to R2 is not. If you can handle R1, R2 is almost just as easy and yields noticeably more rxp (not at level 1, but once you get to level ~10).

Epics are mostly easier than heroics once you adjust to the relatively higher damage output from mobs, since you have so many abilities to work with and counter bad situations. Don't be afraid!

Legendary requires a big step up in DCs to be effective. DCs in the 60s will work in most L28 content, but at L30+ you will want DCs of 100+. It's not a smooth breakpoint. Don't be surprised if you trounce all epic content on R4 and then hit a hard wall on the first legendary quest you step into, possibly even just on elite.

 

[Jasparius]

In the vast majority of the game, need for tanks is negated by either strong aoe CC or overwhelming aoe DPS. This is why so many people will just solo r4 all the way to level 34, as one or the other (or even both) is available to most classes.

The step up from elite to R1 is big, but the step from R1 to R2 is not. If you can handle R1, R2 is almost just as easy and yields noticeably more rxp (not at level 1, but once you get to level ~10).

Epics are mostly easier than heroics once you adjust to the relatively higher damage output from mobs, since you have so many abilities to work with and counter bad situations. Don't be afraid!

Legendary requires a big step up in DCs to be effective. DCs in the 60s will work in most L28 content, but at L30+ you will want DCs of 100+. It's not a smooth breakpoint. Don't be surprised if you trounce all epic content on R4 and then hit a hard wall on the first legendary quest you step into, possibly even just on elite.

I dont think this last bit is even remotely true. Ive never had DCs in the 100+ range and manage Legendary content up to R3 where CC is nearly fully effective, and at R6 where it is mostly effective. Maybe 2/3 of mobs get caught so I cast Disco balls and Hold Monster which should get everything, and Web for things which cant be got.

I dont imagine R1 even needs 90s.

For a Fighter going Dire Charge if you take all the upgrades then you get multiple Fort saves being needed which makes it very effective too.

Making new players think they have to be overgeared and 100% insta kill/CC everything every time without fail I dont think is very helpful.

 

[Zaszgul]

I dont think this last bit is even remotely true. Ive never had DCs in the 100+ range and manage Legendary content up to R3 where CC is nearly fully effective, and at R6 where it is mostly effective. Maybe 2/3 of mobs get caught so I cast Disco balls and Hold Monster which should get everything, and Web for things which cant be got.

I dont imagine R1 even needs 90s.

For a Fighter going Dire Charge if you take all the upgrades then you get multiple Fort saves being needed which makes it very effective too.

Making new players think they have to be overgeared and 100% insta kill/CC everything every time without fail I dont think is very helpful.

For targeting an enemy's weak save, that's probably fine.

But if you need to target their strong save because it's your main or possibly only option, sub-100 DCs can be a big problem. I had an absolutely miserable time in the past while soloing evocation casters vs evasion mobs.

 

[Jasparius]

For targeting an enemy's weak save, that's probably fine.

But if you need to target their strong save because it's your main or possibly only option, sub-100 DCs can be a big problem. I had an absolutely miserable time in the past while soloing evocation casters vs evasion mobs.

For solo you would want no fail CC, but this is a group so will (hopefully) have trips, stuns, dances, webs, etc.

 

[dur]

Hi everyone!

[]

Our plan...
I have my own little guild (level 40) which is just for my RL friends and I. We’re a small team of guys, all over 40. My friends are all first-lifers []

Enjoy the game with the group you have and hope to keep,

My N00b question: How familiar are you with DnD?

 

[Bjond]

I have never played beyond level 20 and know very little about the realities of Epic and Legendary level content.

Sentient weapons are THE key to fun in epic levels, but it's VERY hard to "prep" one using heroic content.

The optimal SXP farm is Isle of Dread purple wilderness names, which can be solo-farmed quite easily by a L20 near-naked RANGED dps. Non-ranged will have serious challenges doing that by comparison. Ransack once a week, rinse & repeat until 210K SXP (probably on 2x weapons per character).

Epic Destiny cores that match your class are the next big boost along with a useful Epic Strike.

For our plan (above), will we need a dedicated tank?

No. Tanks aren't even fun to play until R8+ questing or R1+ raiding.

However, everyone will want to consider defense a little bit. Heroic is a steamroll where you mostly don't need to worry about any stats at all. Picking things that are good for your role will make epic much more fun.

My best guess is we will need a dedicated tank. Am I right?

Nope. These days I'd expect MY 1st life characters to be able to easily solo epic R4s while leveling. As a newbie? No way in hell. I didn't know what to build or what to burn CDs on for a fast kill and what to leave for later. R1 and epic will feel tougher, but even for newbies, a tank is pointless.

One thing I do on all my melee and often on casters, too, is to make sure I maximize intimidate. It really helps for preventing things you want to kill from running all over.

How tank-ie will he need to be for R1 content in Epic levels?

Everyone will be happier with at least 1K HP outside reaper and 100+ M&PRR.

Will he will need to “deep dive” into tanking (I have seen some Zero DPs builds)?

Those are all for push raiding. If you're R4 and under on raids, you can actually use an experienced slightly tanky DPS as your main tank. He'd want the usual "tank tools" (in US with agro & tmp hp), but it's MUCH more fun than running a push tank down low.

OTH, if you have a tank-minded groupie, you can build more tanky than usual and learn tank habits like grouping agro to face you and away from team. Those will help later when tanking a raid or higher reaper.

Will he be able to afford to build his Str and spend a few feats on have a 2-hander as Plan B? [..] We’re just n00bs at DDO.

If you know trinity play from other MMOs, that style really only happens R8+ and on raids. Most reaper play, especially reaper leveling, is a swarm of dps going wild in parallel to progress the quest quickly.

BTW, my first-life raid tank leveled as a DPS with a 2H'er. It was a variation on Tronko's Steelmaiden build.

My limited understanding is that Dodge is not realistic for heavy armour wearers. Correct, or am I missing something?

Max what you can. My first tank had dodge up around 20~25% in heavy armor, iirc. Dodge is a particularly squirrelly stat to increase, since it has three caps: maximum dexterity bonus from armor, max dex bonus from shield, and a dodge cap itself.

There are multiple ways to increase MDB and I used most of them. I also used a Large rather than Tower shield.

---

IMHO, don't stop leveling at 20 and TR. Play in epics. R1 is absolutely doable by 1st life and if you have a group, it should be easy and enjoyable with a mix of whatever classes y'all like to play.

It will also provide an extremely useful experience backdrop for planning future lives.

 

[Kirilh]

Wow, thank you everyone for those responses. I’ll read carefully and weigh those thoughts!

Dur, I have been playing DnD since 1980. It’s apparent DDO is based on DnD, and has ‘developed’ from there

I’m really enjoying DDO, and am especially grateful for the mature and helpful community.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

Just my two cents , if you’re really in a full group of noobs having someone relatively tanky even in lower difficulties will help you push the difficulty up faster than without having a tank.

Everyone is speaking from a level of experience and gear that you won’t have yet.

Especially if that player doubles as something else (heals cc etc) it could really smooth out the game for you.

Everyone is right eventually no “tank” at all is needed in r1, but it’s helpful in a group to have a beefier character.

 

[Kirilh]

I have a follow up n00b question!

What is the point of having many past lives?

My context: we’re a first life group. Questing is boring on anything less than elite or R1 (depending on the quest).

What content are the powerful people doing, and why?

 

[Vox]

I have a follow up n00b question!

What is the point of having many past lives?

My context: we’re a first life group. Questing is boring on anything less than elite or R1 (depending on the quest).

What content are the powerful people doing, and why?

It's basically a continual engagement mechanic. Past lives give a stacking permanent bonus, makes leveling easier and faster, etc.

Power peeps do r10 solo speedruns, raid solo's, raid pushes, focus on supporting others at cap when their mains basically retire due to no further possible advancement, that kind of thing.

 

[Matuse]

The first two past lives give you more build points when you start a character. 34 on the first reincarnation (assuming this is a heroic or racial reincarnation...it's complicated), 36 on the second. This helps a lot for building in minimum stats for feat requirements, and also lets you more easily max out your main stat without having to completely cripple everything else.

Then, each past life has some kind of bonus, up to the first three reincarnations of that life. For each fighter life, in the future you will have +1 to hit with all weapons, going up to +3 to hit with all weapons after finishing 3 fighter lives and moving on to say, Paladin. +1 to hit doesn't sound like much - and it isn't - but all of these lives add up to a lot of character power.

If you were melee focused, and had the following past lives:
1 Cleric
1 Wizard
1 Sorcerer
1 Favored Soul
1 Bard
1 Alchemist
1 Druid
1 Warlock
3 Barbarian
3 Fighter
3 Paladin
3 Ranger
3 Rogue
3 Monk

In your bare skin, you would have:
+2 Strength, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha
+2 To all skills
+30 Hp
+3 To Hit, and +3 to the DC of your tactical abilities
+30 Healing Amp
+6 damage with all ranged weapons
+6 resistance to fire/cold/lightning/acid
+6 Saving throw versus trap damage
+2 Saving throw versus all illusion and enchantment effects
+3 Damage on all sneak attacks
+3 damage to all weapons (so, +9 to ranged weapons, because this stacks with the bonus above)
All of your pets and hirelings get +2 to their Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha
+40 Spellpoints
+1 on all Intelligence skills and +1 Use Magic Device
+3 MRR

That's class completionist and a heavy focus on base melee past lives. We're not even including the Archetypes (3 dragon lord lives would give +3 more damage with all weapons, for example), the Iconics, the Racials, and the Epic lives.

The question for you to answer is - how much do you enjoy playing the game from level 1? Because all of those past lives above is a LOT of playing from level 1 to 20. If you don't like it, then it's unendurable grind. Get 2-3 good past lives in a class you enjoy with a decent benefit, and then stay at the level cap with a 36 point build and do your thing. If you do like it, then it's a nearly infinite amount playtime with fun bonuses along the way. Only you can decide how many past lives you want (and have the IRL time) to get.

You absolutely do not NEED past lives to enjoy and do well in the game. Certain build types benefit a lot from it (relevant to this thread, tanking is probably the role that needs past lives the most out of any), but nobody needs it. I have a level 32 first life favored soul that has an old and outdated build from 2014 that I can still take into modern content and succeed.

 

[Jasparius]

I have a follow up n00b question!

What is the point of having many past lives?

My context: we’re a first life group. Questing is boring on anything less than elite or R1 (depending on the quest).

What content are the powerful people doing, and why?

Firstly it feeds addiction. Some people play a LOT and need things to do.

Secondly it gives incremental power increases. If you want to do higher level Reaper, it helps. At R10 mobs basically hit 10 times as hard and take 1/10th the damage.

So when playing with your friends, choose the level which is a fun challenge. Too easy, go up a Reaper level, too hard, drop back one.

The best way to enjoy the game is to play what you enjoy.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

For me the best thing about past lives is racial past lives, because having 15+ racial points just allows more fun builds, and this game is about builds, right?

However, that's approximately 45 racial past lives, so be careful going down this path, for this way only madness lies.