5th Edition versus 2nd

[Teh_Troll]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

 

[Gyuma Bei]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

Umber Hulk is Challenge Rating 5. In 3.5 E and 5th Ed, the Challenge Rating is based on roughly 4-5 characters of that level fighting against it.

Umber Hulk CR 5 would be expected to be pitted against at least 4 Level 5 Characters. In 5th Edition, that means it would be facing spellcasters armed with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, as well as lower level spells (including cantrips that earlier editions didn't have i.e. minor but repeatable spells). Martial Classes will have 35 to 50+ hit points with +1 or +2 Weapons and gear. 93 Hp on the Umber Hulk gives it some survivability to keep that party of 4 on their toes.

 

[Lazuli]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

What you are missing is that the damage that the characters do in each edition is different.

Anyway, I consider that 5ed monsters are very boring, bags of hp and little else. But to each their tastes. If you like 5Ed, you don't have to compare the hps with other editions, because the damage that characters do in each edition is different.

 

[Chai]

5e does have it's gimmicks. Bags of HP is one of them, and higher level mobs having advantage on all spell saves is another.

That being said, level 5 is a power spike level in 5th edition. Melee/ranged classes now have 2 attacks per attack action. Damage cantrips now hit for 2x damage dice. Casters have 3rd level spells, and in 5e those don't scale by character level (fireball does 8d6 for instance).

A CR5 mob encounter of one mob needs to be powerful enough to present a realistic danger to the level 5 party.

 

[Driaza]

That 1 Umber hulk is a normal difficulty encounter for 4-5 level 5 PCs in 5e

In 2nd eddition you would probably be looking at a random number of Umber hulks being thrown at the same party ... sometimes this would low and result in an easy fight - sometimes high number and the PCs get wiped

Earlier edditions were brutal - 5E is more forgiving to say the least and tends to really want to look for a balanced and fun experience

Love all the edditions (except for 4E really) but each was probably a reflection of their times and player base

 

[Teh_Troll]

5E does a lot of stuff right and I think I could be happy with "house ruling" in a few things from earlier editions.

 

[Thulsadoom]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

I have played all of editions, Advanced dungeons and dragons was and still is great. 3.5 is problably my favorite because of the balance the things you could do were endless. 5e is alot of fun especially good for new players. I have been playing a lore bard the past 5 years in 5e. alot of fun

 

[ACJ97F]

5E has some interesting combos. Take that above Umber Hulk as an example. With one turn of prep time a single Level 5 Human (one feat),
can pop that pesky Umber in the back of the head for 4d8+8d6+24 Dmg .... that's with only 14 Dex, and a non-magical weapon.

That one I'll explain. Normally on the SA, using Sharpshooter (again, with only 14 Dex), you'd be dishing out (d8+2d6+12) if that snipe hits.
Assassin's get an Auto-Crit on a surprise SA, so that bumps it up to 2d8+4d6+12. Only (3) levels there. The other (2) are occupied by taking
Cleric (Grave Domain). Their ability is Path to the Grave (like a death curse). The next attack on that target he's Vulnerable to the whole thing.
This results in the Assassin shooting a bolt through the target, a tree, and probably an orphanage (if your DM's like ours).

Just one of many things that caught our DM by surprise, since we saved those for crucial moments. Like the Kamikaze Implosion Familiars. )

 

[kmoustakas]

They have a lot more hit points but players also deal A LOT more damage. Especially ranged damaged is way higher in 5e than 2e to the point where the optimal builds (not fun or enganging, D&D is not a competitive game in spirit) are ranged and just avoid/kite/fly/levitate away from enemies. You also get to do a lot more things on your turn compared to 2nd edition. You now have actions, bonus actions, reactions, controlling your summons and many other things. If you weaponise those - and you should - these all add up.

Spells got changed a lot, the tier system and level up system changed a lot. Nuking is way inefficient (and so is healing in combat) but control and summoning got a lot more powerful and in general casters got buffed via the way of monster defenses being nerfed. There is no more % chance to totally avoid any spell ever the way mind flayers and drow used to do.

 

[Jummby]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

Original rules and AD&D are best when sitting by a campfire or around the fireplace at home are best. Story telling, Role playing and game flow being the focus. That is the true spirit if the game.

Oh I just edited my post. I forgot sprite, dorritos and Chinese food!

 

[oninginryu]

Umber Hulk is Challenge Rating 5. In 3.5 E and 5th Ed, the Challenge Rating is based on roughly 4-5 characters of that level fighting against it.

Umber Hulk CR 5 would be expected to be pitted against at least 4 Level 5 Characters. In 5th Edition, that means it would be facing spellcasters armed with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, as well as lower level spells (including cantrips that earlier editions didn't have i.e. minor but repeatable spells). Martial Classes will have 35 to 50+ hit points with +1 or +2 Weapons and gear. 93 Hp on the Umber Hulk gives it some survivability to keep that party of 4 on their toes.

Not to mention most of combat oriented characters will have 2 attacks per action and casters will have 2 dice damage on tricks. Besides the action economy gives bonus actions which you could use to further improve the damage, with attacks, tricks, support... a variety of things depending on the choices of class, feats etc.

I have played all of editions, Advanced dungeons and dragons was and still is great. 3.5 is problably my favorite because of the balance the things you could do were endless. 5e is alot of fun especially good for new players.

Agreed, 3.5 is my favorite edition too, but I really like 5e because of its simplicity, it's begginer friendly, easy to explain and play.

 

[Arkat]

Play Pathfinder (I suggest v1 over v2) instead.

Lots of people consider it D&D v3.75

My two gaming groups have been playing it for 12 or 13 years now. None of us are interested in switching to anything else.

The Foundry VTT (Virtual Table Top) software makes it pretty easy to keep playing together as some of us (well, me) have moved across the country.

 

[Kissfan]

I’ve given up all editions of d&d for a different system I really dislike 5e but l will play 1st edition with Luke or Earnie gygax at a con given the opportunity to do so and have in the I also occasionally run original white box games

 

[Eltronin]

2ND edition is my favorite. I loved the options, the system.

 

[Cmecu]

I played Basic Dungeons and Dragons and 2nd Edition.

I did get to mess around a little bit, but not too much with the later editions. I have watched videos of more in you tube of people playing. I have read of combat rules etc..

My biggest issue with newer systems is how complicated combat gets. It tries to make it too much life like, and goes into so much detail that rules have rules that have rules, and exception rules and alternate rules and before you know it, you spend more time focusing on just one attack and all the intricate mechanics of it, and everything it affects...

When we played combat was left simple.. you hit, you miss, you crit, you fumble.. The game was more focused on imagination. None of us players had piles of books in front of us that we could open up to reference every little single thing in a game.
We focused on imagination, story telling, role playing.. we had fun with the imagination, and didnt get bogged down with endless rules.

That to me, is what made Dungeons and Dragons fun.

 

[kmoustakas]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

Edit: this post is so old and so interesting I didn't even notice I had replied to this in the past as well lol.

You have to keep in mind that players can do insane amounts of damage in one round.

Imagine a second level paladin doing a critical hit with a greataxe and adding a divine smite to that. That would mean he would do 2d12 (double dice greataxe damage) +3 +4d8 (double dice divine smite damage) for a total of 9-59 damage AT LEVEL 2! Not even taking into account things like feats. Now of course you don't always crit and not everyone is a paladin. But assuming you optimise a little bit for combat and you weaponise your bonus action and your reaction, characters do WAY WAY more damage than in second edition.

Baseline damage for tier1 (aka levels 1-4) is 1d10+3+1d6 so on average if you hit that's the baseline damage a character is expected to do.

So there is hit point bloat and there is exponential damage bloat. If a combat lasts more than 2-3 rounds tops, the players are doing something wrong.

 

[cdbd3rd]

I never touched this thread early on because most edition discussions turn in to edition wars. Glad to see this one didn't go that way.

Like 'Troll, I was raised on Basic thru 2nd Edition, and experienced 3+ only with computer games. The times I've trialed or watched newer editions, I'm put off by all the pseudo self-healing (Breathing restores hp?) and extra actions that seem like they can be called in after the dice are rolled. But then again, it has Artificers, and I'd like to play one of those some day in a TT game. Heh, saying 'Some day" as I'm staring down the barrel of 60. Lol.

*glances at book shelf*

Bought a set of the basic 5E books 4-5 years ago. They're still sitting there in their shrinkwrap waiting for their 'some day'

 

[Teh_Troll]

saying 'Some day" as I'm staring down the barrel of 60.

Two things I want in the "old folks home" when I'm 65 in 15 years

1. D&D group full of my fellow geezers.
2. A Garage band, also full of geezers.

 

[Jummby]

Two things I want in the "old folks home" when I'm 65 in 15 years

1. D&D group full of my fellow geezers.
2. A Garage band, also full of geezers.

Imagine siting in an old age home, getting to play pnp all day! That doesn't sound awful.

 

[The_Apocalypse]

One of the things I liked about AD&D was the experience. You gained XP from mobs, story, loot, quests, etc. But, from my understanding, most of the XP came from loot, not from killing. Example: To go from level 1 to level 2 in 3.5 it takes 1,000 XP. In AD&D it takes "about" 2,000 XP, depending on your class. Now, to gain 1,000 XP from killing mobs in 3.5, it takes 10-ish goblins, if flying solo. That's one encounter. In AD&D, on the other hand, it would take roughly 133-ish goblins to get to level 2. See, in AD&D, you earned your XP. Leveling was an accomplishment. Took forever to get to 20th, if you ever made it. Now, 5th Ed requires 300 XP to get to 2nd level, which means maybe 6 goblins. I'm surprised there aren't more level 5 warriors among commoners. Not even going to get into the details of how much more brutal AD&D was.

Newer editions are easy, even with the mob HP bump.