5th Edition versus 2nd

[Teh_Troll]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

 

[Gyuma Bei]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

Umber Hulk is Challenge Rating 5. In 3.5 E and 5th Ed, the Challenge Rating is based on roughly 4-5 characters of that level fighting against it.

Umber Hulk CR 5 would be expected to be pitted against at least 4 Level 5 Characters. In 5th Edition, that means it would be facing spellcasters armed with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Mass Healing Word, Revivify, as well as lower level spells (including cantrips that earlier editions didn't have i.e. minor but repeatable spells). Martial Classes will have 35 to 50+ hit points with +1 or +2 Weapons and gear. 93 Hp on the Umber Hulk gives it some survivability to keep that party of 4 on their toes.

 

[Lazuli]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

What you are missing is that the damage that the characters do in each edition is different.

Anyway, I consider that 5ed monsters are very boring, bags of hp and little else. But to each their tastes. If you like 5Ed, you don't have to compare the hps with other editions, because the damage that characters do in each edition is different.

 

[Chai]

5e does have it's gimmicks. Bags of HP is one of them, and higher level mobs having advantage on all spell saves is another.

That being said, level 5 is a power spike level in 5th edition. Melee/ranged classes now have 2 attacks per attack action. Damage cantrips now hit for 2x damage dice. Casters have 3rd level spells, and in 5e those don't scale by character level (fireball does 8d6 for instance).

A CR5 mob encounter of one mob needs to be powerful enough to present a realistic danger to the level 5 party.

 

[Driaza]

That 1 Umber hulk is a normal difficulty encounter for 4-5 level 5 PCs in 5e

In 2nd eddition you would probably be looking at a random number of Umber hulks being thrown at the same party ... sometimes this would low and result in an easy fight - sometimes high number and the PCs get wiped

Earlier edditions were brutal - 5E is more forgiving to say the least and tends to really want to look for a balanced and fun experience

Love all the edditions (except for 4E really) but each was probably a reflection of their times and player base

 

[Teh_Troll]

5E does a lot of stuff right and I think I could be happy with "house ruling" in a few things from earlier editions.

 

[Thulsadoom]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

I have played all of editions, Advanced dungeons and dragons was and still is great. 3.5 is problably my favorite because of the balance the things you could do were endless. 5e is alot of fun especially good for new players. I have been playing a lore bard the past 5 years in 5e. alot of fun

 

[ACJ97F]

5E has some interesting combos. Take that above Umber Hulk as an example. With one turn of prep time a single Level 5 Human (one feat),
can pop that pesky Umber in the back of the head for 4d8+8d6+24 Dmg .... that's with only 14 Dex, and a non-magical weapon.

That one I'll explain. Normally on the SA, using Sharpshooter (again, with only 14 Dex), you'd be dishing out (d8+2d6+12) if that snipe hits.
Assassin's get an Auto-Crit on a surprise SA, so that bumps it up to 2d8+4d6+12. Only (3) levels there. The other (2) are occupied by taking
Cleric (Grave Domain). Their ability is Path to the Grave (like a death curse). The next attack on that target he's Vulnerable to the whole thing.
This results in the Assassin shooting a bolt through the target, a tree, and probably an orphanage (if your DM's like ours).

Just one of many things that caught our DM by surprise, since we saved those for crucial moments. Like the Kamikaze Implosion Familiars. )

 

[kmoustakas]

They have a lot more hit points but players also deal A LOT more damage. Especially ranged damaged is way higher in 5e than 2e to the point where the optimal builds (not fun or enganging, D&D is not a competitive game in spirit) are ranged and just avoid/kite/fly/levitate away from enemies. You also get to do a lot more things on your turn compared to 2nd edition. You now have actions, bonus actions, reactions, controlling your summons and many other things. If you weaponise those - and you should - these all add up.

Spells got changed a lot, the tier system and level up system changed a lot. Nuking is way inefficient (and so is healing in combat) but control and summoning got a lot more powerful and in general casters got buffed via the way of monster defenses being nerfed. There is no more % chance to totally avoid any spell ever the way mind flayers and drow used to do.

 

[Jummby]

I'm old, as a child I played Basic and first edition AD&D and second edition in high school until I was about 30 when I stopped playing pen and paper. I'm familiar with 3.5 as a DDO player but never played it in PnP or read through the rules.

Later editions changed SOME things for the better. AC going up and +to hit bonuses is easier than THAC0 (though is was nice to understand the concept of negative numbers when you're 7). Saves and DC make more sense in later editions as well.

The "advantage" system from 5th edition is nice as well. I digress . . .

So after watching "Legends of Vox Machina" on Amazon I got interested in 5th edition. I've watched a few live stream of 5th edition (Critical Role and some others) and one thing that I don't get is how all the mobs in 5th edition are gigantic bags of hit points. Combat in these games looks like chopping down trees with a herring. Basic encounters just take forever.

An example . . . an Umberhulk in 5th edition has 93 HP. In second edition in 8+8 hit dice which would 44 on average. AC's about the same, attacks about the same, but the HP are more than double. I'm not observing player damage being any higher than what we had back in the day with second edition, but with monster HP being double no wonder it seams like such a slog.

What am I missing? I assume a lot since I never played 5E. Enlighten me.

Original rules and AD&D are best when sitting by a campfire or around the fireplace at home are best. Story telling, Role playing and game flow being the focus. That is the true spirit if the game.

Oh I just edited my post. I forgot sprite, dorritos and Chinese food!