A change to damage type for Warlocks.

Winterburn

Well-known member
Hi.

Now this is going to ruffle some feathers, of that I'm sure.

There are monsters that get healed by certain elemental damage (Iron golems gets healed by fire, the acis stone elementals in acid wit gets healed from acid and then there are some that gets buffed by some, like the flesh golems that gets hasted by electric and there might be more that I just can't think of on top of my head).

Then there is also monsters that are immune to certain elemental damage. Now both the sorcerer and alchemist have a bypass skill for this which I for one are all for (saw another post a few days ago about someone not liking that, something about no more "silverbullets" or something like that if you want to read that guys post).

Now for my suggestion:

Since the pact damage is really the key damage output on a warlock I don't think it should count as elemental as in like a fire spell or an acid spell. For me it's more like a deity damage that just happends to be elemental in it's "shape". I would like it to be counted as untyped damage and it could either be boosted by the element it's supposed to represent aka fiend pact although the damage type is "untyped" it gets boosted by fire spellpower and fire lore for crits or all warlock pacts could be boosted by impulse and kinetic lore spellpower which would make gearing easier since the other part of the damage is force (unless you use the skill that makes it evil).

I would be ok with either of those options but if that makes it too easy then make it boost by the element that it's representing, aka Fiend - fire spellpower, Great Old One - acid spellpower etc, just make the damage type untyped.

This way you don't have to turn off your pact every time you run into monsters that are healed or buffed by your main damage type. Or be secerly crippled when fighting mobs that are immune to your pact damage.

I don't want to change the look af the blasts or anything and I kind of still want them to be representative of the elements since it makes it cool, I just don't want it to be treated as for fiend as example as normal fire, but a demons fire that nothing is immune to or gets healed/buffed from and the easiest way to make that change i think would be to make the damage untyped but still look like fire.

Edit: I kind of take back where I want it to be boosted by impulse/kinetic lore. Even if I would be ok with that change I would rather it's boosted by the element it's supposed to represent.
 
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Winterburn

Well-known member
Your basic claim of "fire elements should not be immune to fire damage" seems maybe non-reflective.

Rabidfox's and others point that it's all a trade-off is accurate. Warlocks are generally the easiest class to level 1 to 20. A few hard quests, like Raven, doesn't change that, it just means that you'll have to adjust your play style in those circumstances.

And I agree that there should be more options to change damage types, but there should be an additional trade off, like APs or reduction in damage, to make that happen.
I do not claim that fire elementals shouldn't be immune to fire damage. Just that there should be ways to overcome it so that you don't have specialists (like fire sorcerer) all of a sudden becomes useless. Granted as a sorcerer you have more options but that is beside the point.

If you take away a specialists main damage abilities you basically cripple them. It would be like you have a 2hf warrior and say that you can only use your fists on these specific enemies. I do agree that some tradeoffs are in order like reduced damage on fire enemies in some way or shape like we have now that you need to use an ability that does 0 damage but strips away the immunity for a short time or like the skill where you can bypass an amount of the resistances.

As for the Warlocks I still think that the damage although fire for example fiend pact gets should work differently since it's in a way a demon pact. It could be a way to not take away ALL damage from the pact you've made or in some occasions heal enemies so you HAVE to turn it off because the healing is greater then your other damage.

Yes you can make it so it doesn't make FULL damage but it shouldn't make 0 or heal your enemy imo and there are other tradeoffs too already like the different pacts have saves for half damage and such. For the warlock in general you have several options of pacts to choose from but if you want to play acolyte you have to use fire.

To me it seems just wrong that you have situations where you can be utterly useless or even worse heal your enemy (unless you turn your pact off and take away a hugh amount of your damage output) even if it is very situational. But hey everyone are aloud to have their own opinion and it doesn't discourage me from playing an acolyte or a Warlock with subpar pacts, it just makes it a bit less fun for me.

Edit: IF the Eldritch damage was your main damage output and the pact was a secondary damage source (where lets say the Eldritch damage was about 75% ot the damage and the pact damage was about 25%) it would be a different story and would be a tradeoff that I could live with. But as it is now it's the opposite (not sure about the % because I havn't made the actual calculations but my pact damage is higher then my Eldritch damage).
 
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PraetorPlato

Well-known member
I use tier 5 tainted scholar which gives a eldritch ball which has a nice burst damage... But again its scaling is bad in epics and is useless in legendary. And in heroics It is not the best burst damage of course, comparing with other classes.

Heroic warlock dps seems fine because we usually level up in low difficulty. It's less fine if you raise skulls. Heroic warlock dps it is not big either.
Yeah, it's ok, but compared to chain lightning/DBF/even a two handed weapon it feels just slow. Easy, but slow.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
Yeah, it's ok, but compared to chain lightning/DBF/even a two handed weapon it feels just slow. Easy, but slow.
I agree. As i said before, warlock is easy in heroics because it is a very simple class and we level up in low difficulty.it does not have huge dps.
 

Svirfneblin

Well-known member
Being able to turn your pact on and off quickly would sure be nice and help with this.

Immunity stripping would be wonderful other classes have it.

Add another imbue into the tainted scholar tree and add some Imbue dice since that’s the blaster tree and all. Let blasters… blast!

the imbue in ES tree is too high up the core and challenging to get if you don’t normally put that many points in that tree.

Warlock really could use some gear and an epic Destiny that’s catered towards their unique play style.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
Hostile targets getting healed by elemental damage is a terrible quality of life aspect of any nuker. I don't care what the D&D monster manual says about iron golems and fire (or other examples), as it was never designed for an online MMORPG platform. DDO has already deviated from the 3.5 edition ruleset with PRR/MRR, Dodge, Spellpower, Spell Crit, etc. This is another area where it needs to diverge.

Turning a pact off/on is not the real solution. Player intent should always matter. And that intent is to blow up a mob with elemental damage. Not healing it.

Permitting Warlock's Stricken to allow elemental bypass for a single target is another solution. In some future time where the Curse Keeper epic destiny is finally released, an immunity bypass can be introduced to Eldritch Blast. Until then, the only viable Warlock pacts I'd play are GOO or Fey due to so few mobs being resistant/healed by that damage type. Tiefling/Fire is ok, but only has a 50% uptime so it's meh. Plus being locked to a specific race sucks.
 

Winterburn

Well-known member
Hostile targets getting healed by elemental damage is a terrible quality of life aspect of any nuker. I don't care what the D&D monster manual says about iron golems and fire (or other examples), as it was never designed for an online MMORPG platform. DDO has already deviated from the 3.5 edition ruleset with PRR/MRR, Dodge, Spellpower, Spell Crit, etc. This is another area where it needs to diverge.

Turning a pact off/on is not the real solution. Player intent should always matter. And that intent is to blow up a mob with elemental damage. Not healing it.

Permitting Warlock's Stricken to allow elemental bypass for a single target is another solution. In some future time where the Curse Keeper epic destiny is finally released, an immunity bypass can be introduced to Eldritch Blast. Until then, the only viable Warlock pacts I'd play are GOO or Fey due to so few mobs being resistant/healed by that damage type. Tiefling/Fire is ok, but only has a 50% uptime so it's meh. Plus being locked to a specific race sucks.
Plus you need to have the (or spend the) AP's in the racial tree to get the immunity stipping skill. This is AP's that any other would have to make thier build better, where you have to take certain skills just to get that particular ability.
 

Visik

Well-known member
Well first off half pact damage is still damage done and not 0 as with immunities, 2nd half damage is also not healing mobs faster then you can hurt them. I don't mind the saving on high reflex, fortitude or will for half damage here and I don't think I even mentioned that. Truth be told I didn't even remember that it was a thing.
Umm.. Yes, half damage for anyone using any saving throw EXCEPT Reflex, because Reflex is the only save where mobs may ALSO have evasion and thus take NO damage on a successful save.
 

droid327

Well-known member
The problem with the OP's suggestion is that Untyped damage doesnt benefit from MRR debuffs, like the ones Warlock gets...

I dont like immunity strippers being such a widespread OSFA solution either

I might recommend a new "shape" (given to all Locks at L1) that disables your Pact damage, but applies like 50% of your Pact Dice to your base Blast damage. So you can switch to single-element Force/Evil damage for Pact-immune mobs, but you take a pretty hefty DPS penalty to do it, so you wouldn't want to run Blast-only all the time.

Honestly thats how all casters should have to deal with immunes - you have a tool to make them killable, but you're much less effective while using it.
 

Visik

Well-known member
Honestly thats how all casters should have to deal with immunes - you have a tool to make them killable, but you're much less effective while using it.
I think that's the core of my opinion, right there: immunities and resistances and 'healed bys' exist to add flavor and difficulty. Letting (some) toons just completely ignore all that is bad design, imo.
 

Winterburn

Well-known member
I think that's the core of my opinion, right there: immunities and resistances and 'healed bys' exist to add flavor and difficulty. Letting (some) toons just completely ignore all that is bad design, imo.
From a rpg point of view I can see that this is proper design and although DDO is a MMORPG it plays more like an ARPG imo.

Furthermore if the game was played (by us the players) like it was back in the day where you needed to play with others (at least for elite difficulty) this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Today when most people solo play this becomes an issue because even if you have hireling/s in your party they don't do much damage and even though it's not that bad in normal - elite difficulty it is a big deal in reaper mode and can be a problem if you join random lfm's. I can't tell how many times a group has been disbanded after a quest where it went bad (even if we finished it in the end) because of things like this.

Now I have never had anyone being a jerk about it to me personally but when people start a chain and drop after a bad run mid chain you just know that it wasn't because they had real life issues but they just didn't have fun and that's the aim of the game, at least to me.
 

Visik

Well-known member
From a rpg point of view I can see that this is proper design and although DDO is a MMORPG it plays more like an ARPG imo.

Furthermore if the game was played (by us the players) like it was back in the day where you needed to play with others (at least for elite difficulty) this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Today when most people solo play this becomes an issue because even if you have hireling/s in your party they don't do much damage and even though it's not that bad in normal - elite difficulty it is a big deal in reaper mode and can be a problem if you join random lfm's. I can't tell how many times a group has been disbanded after a quest where it went bad (even if we finished it in the end) because of things like this.

Now I have never had anyone being a jerk about it to me personally but when people start a chain and drop after a bad run mid chain you just know that it wasn't because they had real life issues but they just didn't have fun and that's the aim of the game, at least to me.
That all sounds.. irrelevant to the issue at hand.. or peripheral at best. The number of reasons a quest run can go bad is well-nigh infinite; this does not constitute a major percentage of them, ime. In fact, I can't recall this specific issue ever having caused a quest to fail or become excessively difficult. At worst, it's a minor annoyance. There ARE ways to work around the immunities/heals. And if we eliminate everything that provides any sort of challenge whatsoever, what game are we really playing? We're just running through mobs without the necessity to ever use a brain cell. Not an improvement, imo.
 
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EinarMal

Well-known member
The problem with the OP's suggestion is that Untyped damage doesnt benefit from MRR debuffs, like the ones Warlock gets...

I dont like immunity strippers being such a widespread OSFA solution

Honestly thats how all casters should have to deal with immunes - you have a tool to make them killable, but you're much less effective while using it.
I really don’t get this argument. Why in the world should casters need even less DPS when melee/ranged can work most DR bypass into their build and not deal with this?

The DPS thread already shows that in terms of burst damage a Wizard is something like 6x longer to kill the same target even with multiple optimized raid items completionist etc.
 

droid327

Well-known member
I really don’t get this argument. Why in the world should casters need even less DPS when melee/ranged can work most DR bypass into their build and not deal with this?

The DPS thread already shows that in terms of burst damage a Wizard is something like 6x longer to kill the same target even with multiple optimized raid items completions etc.

Physicals dont have to deal with immunes, just resistances - and casters can reduce resistances too. If there were actual Physical-immune mobs in the game...there'd be a riot :D

The reason caster damage is held to a different standard is because its massive, its ranged, and it has the best AOE
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Physicals dont have to deal with immunes, just resistances - and casters can reduce resistances too. If there were actual Physical-immune mobs in the game...there'd be a riot :D

The reason caster damage is held to a different standard is because its massive, its ranged, and it has the best AOE
DR breaking on physical damage dealers in the past mattered more. "Show us your harry beaters" We've got a lot of ways to build in DR bypasses these days. Casters are just held to a double standard, where some casters ignore immunities and some held back because they can't ignore it. I'd be perfectly fine burning a feat or using an immunity bypass weapon on my warlock. But the claim of "caster damage is held to a different standard is because its massive, its ranged, and it has the best AOE" doesn't hold any water when sorcs/druids/alchs have that and bypass immunities... It's just byproducts of an old design where some classes don't follow those same old rules.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Physicals dont have to deal with immunes, just resistances - and casters can reduce resistances too. If there were actual Physical-immune mobs in the game...there'd be a riot :D

The reason caster damage is held to a different standard is because its massive, its ranged, and it has the best AOE
lol “massive”

I would also argue SDK chains is currently the AOE king

Best ranged AOE is repeater
 

droid327

Well-known member
DR breaking on physical damage dealers in the past mattered more. "Show us your harry beaters" We've got a lot of ways to build in DR bypasses these days. Casters are just held to a double standard, where some casters ignore immunities and some held back because they can't ignore it. I'd be perfectly fine burning a feat or using an immunity bypass weapon on my warlock. But the claim of "caster damage is held to a different standard is because its massive, its ranged, and it has the best AOE" doesn't hold any water when sorcs/druids/alchs have that and bypass immunities... It's just byproducts of an old design where some classes don't follow those same old rules.

You're describing two different balance points

Caster vs Physical is balanced because of the ranged, AOE, burst capability of casters (plus ranged aoe CC)

Caster vs caster, you're 100% right, there's a double standard and a palpable gap between strippers and nonstrippers. But that gap shouldn't be addressed by just giving everyone stripping. I'd advocate for changing stripping entirely, where it breaks immunity but only 50% or so, so there's still a major resistance.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
They won't balance physical damage so its not a vacuum the bottom needs to come up or the top needs a hammering
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
You're describing two different balance points

Caster vs Physical is balanced because of the ranged, AOE, burst capability of casters (plus ranged aoe CC
Right now ranged and melee are doing 2x at least the burst damage. Not even counting the high reaper additional penalty. It is not at all balanced.

Ranged also do range damage and now AOE.

SDK chains + WWA with something like DL destroy packs of mobs on R10.
 
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