A change to damage type for Warlocks.

Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
Hi.

Now this is going to ruffle some feathers, of that I'm sure.

There are monsters that get healed by certain elemental damage (Iron golems gets healed by fire, the acis stone elementals in acid wit gets healed from acid and then there are some that gets buffed by some, like the flesh golems that gets hasted by electric and there might be more that I just can't think of on top of my head).

Then there is also monsters that are immune to certain elemental damage. Now both the sorcerer and alchemist have a bypass skill for this which I for one are all for (saw another post a few days ago about someone not liking that, something about no more "silverbullets" or something like that if you want to read that guys post).

Now for my suggestion:

Since the pact damage is really the key damage output on a warlock I don't think it should count as elemental as in like a fire spell or an acid spell. For me it's more like a deity damage that just happends to be elemental in it's "shape". I would like it to be counted as untyped damage and it could either be boosted by the element it's supposed to represent aka fiend pact although the damage type is "untyped" it gets boosted by fire spellpower and fire lore for crits or all warlock pacts could be boosted by impulse and kinetic lore spellpower which would make gearing easier since the other part of the damage is force (unless you use the skill that makes it evil).

I would be ok with either of those options but if that makes it too easy then make it boost by the element that it's representing, aka Fiend - fire spellpower, Great Old One - acid spellpower etc, just make the damage type untyped.

This way you don't have to turn off your pact every time you run into monsters that are healed or buffed by your main damage type. Or be secerly crippled when fighting mobs that are immune to your pact damage.

I don't want to change the look af the blasts or anything and I kind of still want them to be representative of the elements since it makes it cool, I just don't want it to be treated as for fiend as example as normal fire, but a demons fire that nothing is immune to or gets healed/buffed from and the easiest way to make that change i think would be to make the damage untyped but still look like fire.

Edit: I kind of take back where I want it to be boosted by impulse/kinetic lore. Even if I would be ok with that change I would rather it's boosted by the element it's supposed to represent.
 
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rabidfox

The People's Champion
Then why even have a Warlock class...or any class for that matter?

Simply give everyone access to every feat/skill/enhancement and go from there.

If you choose a Warlock, you choose the inherent weakness they get from their pact choice. Live (or die) with it. If you can't figure out that you are healing the thing you think you are attacking...the problem may well be you and not the game.

- Hmmm, this dragon just spit acid at us...maybe I should shoot an acid bolt at it... (Seems like a bad idea)
That argument only holds up if no one has immunity bypasses. When chunk of casters do and a chunk don't then those who don't want to level the playing field and have the same degree of solo-ability from those bypasses; simple as that.
 

Buddha5440

Well-known member
That argument only holds up if no one has immunity bypasses. When chunk of casters do and a chunk don't then those who don't want to level the playing field and have the same degree of solo-ability from those bypasses; simple as that.
If everyone has those bypasses they become meaningless. You choose a class/build that doesn't, you have to deal with it. Not every class/build should be soloable. Arguably, none should be.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
If everyone has those bypasses they become meaningless. You choose a class/build that doesn't, you have to deal with it. Not every class/build should be soloable. Arguably, none should be.
I do deal with it. Doesn't change that I think it could be better. Even a pact toggle that doesn't take several seconds to turn back on would be big improvement.
 

Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
If everyone has those bypasses they become meaningless. You choose a class/build that doesn't, you have to deal with it. Not every class/build should be soloable. Arguably, none should be.

Once again, it's not like I'm asking them to completely take away disadvantages from certain choices just level the game out. You suggest that it's shouldn't be levelled and that some classes/builds should be unable to properly play the game.

That is a very bad take in a game like this imo, it would have worked in PnP where you have the party play and you have one or more persons that can take on specific problems where your character might have to sit back and be a lot less effective. I know that some people don't like that this game has become so solo focused but that is the reality and with that said there needs to be some changes made so not all just play the one class/build that's op this week.

A lot of us that play like to play different characters and different classes/builds. I have 39 characters that I citcle through depending on what I feel like playing at any given time. Some melee, some ranged, some casters and some hybrids. I like the fact that this game is so versatile in build possibilities and want there to be little to no restrictive issues that hampers these possibilities.

For example with the warlock beeing as is, for you to maximize your damage output and have least restrictions/disadvantages you would have to choose a specific pact like GOO or Fey (although they too have their own problems too) this imo limits your choices if you want to play higher difficulties. It's not going to be that much problems if you do normal or hard, not even that much of an issue on elite but on reaper it is a problem imo.

I would say that the disavantages that the warlock suffers and especially the fire pact does would be compared to if they removed melee characters incorporeal bypass completely and maybe upped the incorporeality on those monsters to 75-85%.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Melees and Ranged can now max physical damage with no hard caps and no flat nerf can now max elemental damage

With DL stripping can now max imbues and dice in there trees casters can't can now max helpless damage in there trees casters can't

Can maximize sneak attack dice casters can't have raid weapons that actually work too ya caster eds suck

And there dps and defenses are all free add stamina bars or balance stuff
 

Buddha5440

Well-known member
Once again, it's not like I'm asking them to completely take away disadvantages from certain choices just level the game out. You suggest that it's shouldn't be levelled and that some classes/builds should be unable to properly play the game.

That is a very bad take in a game like this imo, it would have worked in PnP where you have the party play and you have one or more persons that can take on specific problems where your character might have to sit back and be a lot less effective. I know that some people don't like that this game has become so solo focused but that is the reality and with that said there needs to be some changes made so not all just play the one class/build that's op this week.

A lot of us that play like to play different characters and different classes/builds. I have 39 characters that I citcle through depending on what I feel like playing at any given time. Some melee, some ranged, some casters and some hybrids. I like the fact that this game is so versatile in build possibilities and want there to be little to no restrictive issues that hampers these possibilities.

For example with the warlock beeing as is, for you to maximize your damage output and have least restrictions/disadvantages you would have to choose a specific pact like GOO or Fey (although they too have their own problems too) this imo limits your choices if you want to play higher difficulties. It's not going to be that much problems if you do normal or hard, not even that much of an issue on elite but on reaper it is a problem imo.

I would say that the disavantages that the warlock suffers and especially the fire pact does would be compared to if they removed melee characters incorporeal bypass completely and maybe upped the incorporeality on those monsters to 75-85%.
Never did I say the game should or shouldn't be "levelled". or that "some classes/builds should be unable to properly play the game." That is simply absurd as there is no way to "properly" play the game. My point was (and this is inherent to the Warlock class when you choose your Patron) that when you make a choice, it has consequences.

You also talk about maximizing your damage output. Again, there is a tradeoff. You will be weaker against some things than others. A melee specc'ed in slashing damage will have issues against things resistant to it, same with an archer and piercing resistance.

Yes, I know immunity to physical damage types do not exist (although they should) but what you are asking for is akin to saying 'I should be able to damage a monster made of fire with a fire spell' simply because you specc'ed in fire.
 

Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
Never did I say the game should or shouldn't be "levelled". or that "some classes/builds should be unable to properly play the game." That is simply absurd as there is no way to "properly" play the game. My point was (and this is inherent to the Warlock class when you choose your Patron) that when you make a choice, it has consequences.

You also talk about maximizing your damage output. Again, there is a tradeoff. You will be weaker against some things than others. A melee specc'ed in slashing damage will have issues against things resistant to it, same with an archer and piercing resistance.

Yes, I know immunity to physical damage types do not exist (although they should) but what you are asking for is akin to saying 'I should be able to damage a monster made of fire with a fire spell' simply because you specc'ed in fire.

To the last part here with the fire remark. That is why I would like to see it not beeing "normal" fire but like a demon fire that can hurt fire monsters but with some less intensity since it is still fire.

I know that I originally posted it should be a completely different (untyped) damage but has after seeing all the other posts come to the conclusion that that might be too much. I also think that taking away all damage posiibility from your main damage ability is also too much in the opposite direction and having your main damage ability heal enemies is just wrong imo.

To have some reduced damage output is ok since all builds will have that to some degree in some situations and have some tradeoffs too.

The fighter who has the most feats to take could possibly get imp crit with all types of weapons and carry enough weapons to be able to have no DR problems but that would still be a tradeoff in other areas like cc abilities, defenses etc.

With the proposed change the warlock would still have tradeoffs and reduced damage in situations like saves on your blast, reduced damage on enemies of you element (just not 0 and no healing enemies). I could do a tradeoff that all warlock elements buff a certain enemy like the electric speeds up flesh golems. They could add something like that instead of reducing damage to 0 or heal enemies. It would add some "spice" to the game instead of taking the fun out of it (my opinion and it's situational so the game in it self doesn't become no fun, just those times that you come across these mobs on reaper for me. normal - elite it's not as big of a deal).
 

Buddha5440

Well-known member
To the last part here with the fire remark. That is why I would like to see it not beeing "normal" fire but like a demon fire that can hurt fire monsters but with some less intensity since it is still fire.

I know that I originally posted it should be a completely different (untyped) damage but has after seeing all the other posts come to the conclusion that that might be too much. I also think that taking away all damage posiibility from your main damage ability is also too much in the opposite direction and having your main damage ability heal enemies is just wrong imo.

To have some reduced damage output is ok since all builds will have that to some degree in some situations and have some tradeoffs too.

The fighter who has the most feats to take could possibly get imp crit with all types of weapons and carry enough weapons to be able to have no DR problems but that would still be a tradeoff in other areas like cc abilities, defenses etc.

With the proposed change the warlock would still have tradeoffs and reduced damage in situations like saves on your blast, reduced damage on enemies of you element (just not 0 and no healing enemies). I could do a tradeoff that all warlock elements buff a certain enemy like the electric speeds up flesh golems. They could add something like that instead of reducing damage to 0 or heal enemies. It would add some "spice" to the game instead of taking the fun out of it (my opinion and it's situational so the game in it self doesn't become no fun, just those times that you come across these mobs on reaper for me. normal - elite it's not as big of a deal).
Not sure how making something easier adds "spice" to it. The difficulties and benefits when you choose a pact are what add the spice. It sounds more like you want that removed. Certain things in D&D and DDO have always been immune to certain damage types or even healed by them, that is NOT going to change. If you overspecialize you put yourself at a disadvantage.

I have a toon that is an AA with frost imbue and around 650 SP. As a backup I also have force imbue with a much lower SP of around 300. If I come across something immune/resistant/healed by cold, I switch to force. With a Warlock, you can switch your blast from force (resisted by little) to evil or pierce. The pact damage can be turned off against the mobs resistant/immune to it or healed by it. Giving Warlocks a one-type fits all situations with nothing immune or heavily resistant would make them, once again, supremely OP.
 
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Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
Not sure how making something easier adds "spice" to it. The difficulties and benefits when you choose a pact are what add the spice. It sounds more like you want that removed. Certain things in D&D and DDO have always been immune to certain damage types or even healed by them, that is NOT going to change. If you overspecialize you put yourself at a disadvantage.

I have a toon that is an AA with frost imbue and around 650 SP. As a backup I also have force imbue with a much lower SP of around 300. If I come across something immune/resistant/healed by cold, I switch to force. With a Warlock, you can switch your blast from force (resisted by little) to evil or pierce. The pact damage can be turned off against the mobs resistant/immune to it or healed by it. Giving Warlocks a one-type fits all situations with nothing immune or heavily resistant would make them, once again, supremely OP.

And by turning off your pact you take away more then half you damage. If you on your AA switch to force instead of cold then yes your "extra" damage will take a small drop in damage but your main damage which comes from the actual bow and arrow isn't affected.

In your example you maybe loose at most 20-25% damage output where I as a warlock looses anywhere from 50-75% depending on what level my eldritch dice is at compared to my pact dice (at the time of writing this reply my EB dice is 12 and my pact dice is 14 (15-1 from blast stance)) at lev 24) that would mean that I loose which would mean I loose around 50% of my damage output.

Now if we say they changed it so that the fire damage in this example (since I'm playing an Acolyte atm) took a similar drop as your damage in your force stance I would have no problem with that. But I loose either all that damage or in some cases even heal the mobs.

I just ran A small problem in house P and the fire elementals got healed from my fire damage, now this is extra bad for me because I had to turn off my pact, my ED Mantle and was unable to use my Epic strike or any other Epic abilities I have access to against them (in my case I also have the Reborn in fire SLA from Primal avatar ED tree). So in all technicality I loose a lot more then 50% damage output because of this.

Edit: Had there been sore dragon colours to choose from in draconic incarnation bloodline, like one that gave force damage type and one that gave light/evil or was in anyway boosted by alignment spellpower I could have taken that instead and had decent extra damage from Mantle and Epic strike at least. Same with Primal avatar if there were some alignment SLA or force SLA I could have taken that.

Offcourse I could have used the Exalted angel tree and taken the sunbolt and pillar SLA's but I don't feel like I should have to do such a workaround in a game like this. For PnP it could make sence since you rarely solo play PnP. But in a game like this I feel like you shouldn't have those kind of massive disadvantages.

As for the "spice" remark I still stand by my earlier remark that they could add the disadvantage that you give some enemies some kind of buff like the electric does with flesh golems. For fire enemies it could perhaps grant a buff to PRR/MRR making you do less damage to fire enemies if you are in fire pact. This would cancel out the bypass to resistances and you would effectively do maybe 25-30% less damage and voila it's a levelled playingfield without beeing super OP and having the fun taken away in those situations.
 
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Buddha5440

Well-known member
And by turning off your pact you take away more then half you damage. If you on your AA switch to force instead of cold then yes your "extra" damage will take a small drop in damage but your main damage which comes from the actual bow and arrow isn't affected.

In your example you maybe loose at most 20-25% damage output where I as a warlock looses anywhere from 50-75% depending on what level my eldritch dice is at compared to my pact dice (at the time of writing this reply my EB dice is 12 and my pact dice is 14 (15-1 from blast stance)) at lev 24) that would mean that I loose which would mean I loose around 50% of my damage output.

Now if we say they changed it so that the fire damage in this example (since I'm playing an Acolyte atm) took a similar drop as your damage in your force stance I would have no problem with that. But I loose either all that damage or in some cases even heal the mobs.

I just ran A small problem in house P and the fire elementals got healed from my fire damage, now this is extra bad for me because I had to turn off my pact, my ED Mantle and was unable to use my Epic strike or any other Epic abilities I have access to against them (in my case I also have the Reborn in fire SLA from Primal avatar ED tree). So in all technicality I loose a lot more then 50% damage output because of this.

Edit: Had there been sore dragon colours to choose from in draconic incarnation bloodline, like one that gave force damage type and one that gave light/evil or was in anyway boosted by alignment spellpower I could have taken that instead and had decent extra damage from Mantle and Epic strike at least. Same with Primal avatar if there were some alignment SLA or force SLA I could have taken that.

Offcourse I could have used the Exalted angel tree and taken the sunbolt and pillar SLA's but I don't feel like I should have to do such a workaround in a game like this. For PnP it could make sence since you rarely solo play PnP. But in a game like this I feel like you shouldn't have those kind of massive disadvantages.

As for the "spice" remark I still stand by my earlier remark that they could add the disadvantage that you give some enemies some kind of buff like the electric does with flesh golems. For fire enemies it could perhaps grant a buff to PRR/MRR making you do less damage to fire enemies if you are in fire pact. This would cancel out the bypass to resistances and you would effectively do maybe 25-30% less damage and voila it's a levelled playingfield without beeing super OP and having the fun taken away in those situations.
So you can't kill something that is (talking about a fire elemental), immune to your fire damage. Simply try something not using FIRE. I seriously don't see what your complaint is. You are a Warlock, you have spells that are not fire based, you can also disable your pact and hit them with only force/evil/piercing; but you apparently see that as too hard.

Your entire complaint seems to be that it doesn't fit how YOU want to play. Get over it. Move on. Do something either fun or constructive. I am DONE with you. ~squelch~ (one of only a few I have ever done.

To the rest of you (most of whom I like)...

As I have said many times in the past...

Happy gaming all... and remember... IT'S JUST A FREAKIN GAME. :)

Enjoy it, move on, or buy controlling stock in SSG and make the changes you think are right.
 

Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
And once again
So you can't kill something that is (talking about a fire elemental), immune to your fire damage. Simply try something not using FIRE. I seriously don't see what your complaint is. You are a Warlock, you have spells that are not fire based, you can also disable your pact and hit them with only force/evil/piercing; but you apparently see that as too hard.

Your entire complaint seems to be that it doesn't fit how YOU want to play. Get over it. Move on. Do something either fun or constructive. I am DONE with you. ~squelch~ (one of only a few I have ever done.

To the rest of you (most of whom I like)...

As I have said many times in the past...

Happy gaming all... and remember... IT'S JUST A FREAKIN GAME. :)

Enjoy it, move on, or buy controlling stock in SSG and make the changes you think are right.

Yeah I see that my point didn't come across so I'm with you in that we just have agree to disagree. No need to make our disagrement personal imo. This is a forum after all where we are aloud to have different opinions.

I had hoped I'd win you over to my side ;) but I can respect that you don't see things as I see them.

Happy gaming to you too.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
So you can't kill something that is (talking about a fire elemental), immune to your fire damage. Simply try something not using FIRE. I seriously don't see what your complaint is. You are a Warlock, you have spells that are not fire based, you can also disable your pact and hit them with only force/evil/piercing; but you apparently see that as too hard.
Fiend pact is just one example. IMO some other pacts have it worse, like the negative damage pact where there's a huge chunk of the game where mobs can be immune, heal, or are death warded. I don't think anyone enjoys slogging thru quests and fighting mobs while doing 1/2 to 1/4 their normal damage; it's just boring. A lot of warlock builds don't really have other spells/epic abilities for "damage" that aren't also matching their pact type's damage (other than tentacles or maybe arcane tempest or ruin at high levels depending on build), same with mantles. There's some insta-kills if a mob isn't immune but that's not always the case. I like using hurl for iron golems in best laid plans; but the same type mobs in Raven at the Door turns into a long slog of fight, they can't kill me, but it's slow fight with my pact turned off. It's dull to me and kills the pacing of the game.
 
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Buddha5440

Well-known member
Fiend pact is just one example. IMO some other pacts have it worse, like the negative damage pact where there's a huge chunk of the game where mobs can be immune, heal, or are death warded. I don't think anyone enjoys slogging thru quests and fighting mobs while doing 1/2 to 1/4 their normal damage; it's just boring. A lot of warlock builds don't really have other spells/epic abilities for "damage" that aren't also matching their pact type's damage (other than tentacles or maybe arcane tempest or ruin at high levels depending on build), same with mantles. There's some insta-kills if a mob isn't immune but that's not always the case. I like using hurl for iron golems in best laid plans; but the same type mobs in Raven at the Door turns into a long slog of fight, they can't kill me, but it's slow fight with my pact turned off. It's dull to me and kills the pacing of the game.
Again, you choose that pact; you accept the benefits and the limitations.

-Sarcasm ON-
It would be great if everything in the game could be killed easily by any class with any weapon/spell/SLA/etc.
-Sarcasm OFF-
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
So you can't kill something that is (talking about a fire elemental), immune to your fire damage. Simply try something not using FIRE. I seriously don't see what your complaint is. You are a Warlock, you have spells that are not fire based, you can also disable your pact and hit them with only force/evil/piercing; but you apparently see that as too hard.
What non-fire spells does a fiend or AotS warlock have? You know that a warlock doesn't have any damage spells, right? Look at the fiend warlock list.

Out of curiosity, have you played a warlock?
 

Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
Fiend pact is just one example. IMO some other pacts have it worse, like the negative damage pact where there's a huge chunk of the game where mobs can be immune, heal, or are death warded. I don't think anyone enjoys slogging thru quests and fighting mobs while doing 1/2 to 1/4 their normal damage; it's just boring. A lot of warlock builds don't really have other spells/epic abilities for "damage" that aren't also matching their pact type's damage (other than tentacles or maybe arcane tempest or ruin at high levels depending on build), same with mantles. There's some insta-kills if a mob isn't immune but that's not always the case. I like using hurl for iron golems in best laid plans; but the same type mobs in Raven at the Door turns into a long slog of fight, they can't kill me, but it's slow fight with my pact turned off. It's dull to me and kills the pacing of the game.

Yeah i totally agree here. All Warlock pacts has their disadvantages that can really break your spirit at times and take away the fun factor.

GOO has some monsters like arcane oozes and clay golems that are healed by acid and there is the acidstone elementals in acid wit that are immune. Thaarak hounds and Djinns are also immune to acid. Lots of revers have resistances against acid.

As for Fey there are none immune but some have resistances to sonic which in it self isn't that much of an issue but since the damage is reflex based every enemy that have evasion can be cinsidered "immune" if they make thier save.

Abyss have as you stated problems with undead that are so prevalent in this game. At least PM gets a imuunity/heal from bypass in their enhancement tree.

Carceri is cold so all skeletons should be immune to their main damage. Plus Frostmarrow skeletons are healed from cold but they are only in the Orchard and some of those quests there if I'm not wrong.

Celestial is also reflex based so they would have the same disadvantage as Fey, I also saw that flesh golems wasn't just hasted by electric but also healed by it.

And last Fiend. Apart from Abyss they have the most monsters that are immune to fire damage and not only that but these monsters are everywhere in this game too. Like devils, orthons, fire elementals, fire mephits, Efreeti, Fire giants, hell hounds, Iron golems. Plus champoins from those that are immune are usally healed by it plus the iron golems.

So there is a lot that could be done to up the fun factor for the warlock imo. True there might be other classes too that need some love but this thread was directed to aomething I felt was an issue and that I would like to see some changes to and it seems that I'm not alone.

Edit: The spells a warlock have to use from the spell list that are damage is: Evard's Black Tentacles (4th tier spell), Arcane Tempest (6th tier spell).
They also get some necromancy spells like Enervation (3rd tier spell), Cicle of Death and Finger of Death (5th tier spells), Wail of Banshee (6th tier spell) plus Phantasmal Killer (3rd tier spell and Trap the Soul (6th tier spell).

Although you are very limited as you only get 3 tier 1-3 spells and 2 tier 5 and 6 spells. To be effective you are probably not going to pick damaging spells at every chance you get but maybe some CC or buffs and as with all casters you are not going to be able to focus on all different DC's either so some of the spells are going to fail on reaper or do half damage because monsters makes their saves. Add to that a limited SP pool which might make you not use maximize and stuff on most spells except maybe on boss fights if you remember to turn them on.
 
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Buddha5440

Well-known member
What non-fire spells does a fiend or AotS warlock have? You know that a warlock doesn't have any damage spells, right? Look at the fiend warlock list.

Out of curiosity, have you played a warlock?
The "fiend warlock list" only lists the spells added to their spell list with fiend as their patron... You do realize that ALL Warlock have a spell list with things that do not depend on their patron. Maybe you should look at that.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
The "fiend warlock list" only lists the spells added to their spell list with fiend as their patron... You do realize that ALL Warlock have a spell list with things that do not depend on their patron. Maybe you should look at that.
And what damage spells are those? Because except for Arcane Tempest the warlock list is singularly devoid of damage spells. And just with arcane tempest you're not going anywhere.

Tell us what are those great options that the warlock can resort to.
 
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Winterburn

It's the nature of man to ask questions.-Belgarath
I edited my last post to list all those spells. It's at the bottom where it says Edit if you don't want to read the whole post.

Will note that Evard's has a Strength check for half damage.
 
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