A Glimpse Into Krynn

Anurakh

Little Nixie
That still seems like technology to me. You have a number of discrete components or subsystems, each with a discrete function involved in translating the raw energy of the core into creating consistent effects to generate the motive force. That's technological, regardless of if the raw energy is a bound elemental, or a nuclear reactor, or a dilithium-powered warp bubble.

Again, magitech is magic being used as technology, which is exactly what you're describing.

Cf with other more "pure" magical objects, like a magic carpet or the Mythallar. They dont have "parts". They're objects that are enchanted, and they "just fly". Or, more relevantly, compare to Spelljammer ships, that just have a magical helm, and that simply draws magical energy to make the ship "just fly".
No, it's not technology. Technology would be based on principles that exist in real life and are supported by Earth science. That's arcane science, because all of that works through magic and is supported by arcane, not technical, principles.

I repeat, the magic of Eberron isn't mystical. It's scientific. But still, it's not our science. It's arcane science. And the advances that arise from that arcane science are magical, not technological. Because it's arcane science. Magical science.

In D&D, to learn about technology, you would take an Knowledge Engineering & Architecture skill check. To learn about arcane science, you would take an Knowledge Arcana skill check. The functioning of these advances, like airships, would be explained with Knowledge Arcana... not Knowledge engineering. Because they are created with magic, they work with magic, they produce magical effects, and they are founded on arcane science.

Whether they have parts or not is irrelevant. The physical object they're attached to can be considered technological (but you can see they're simple objects), but it's magic that makes them what they are. It's not an Earth train with a locomotive that has a combustion system, etc. No. The physical shell is simple, and then there are the numerous magical elements that turn it into a lighting rail.

And I don't think there's a genre that perfectly defines Eberron. Magitech is the closest, but not quite.
 

Dunspartacus

Well-known member
Honestly the way I tell if something is magitech is pretty simple:
"Is 80%+ of the technology powered by dubiously explained magic crystals?"

If the answer is yes, then it's probably magitech.




The above message is not endorsed by House Cannith. Who definitely know what they're doing.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
No, it's not technology. Technology would be based on principles that exist in real life and are supported by Earth science.

Meh?

There's a spectrum between "hard" and "soft" sci fi...there's a spectrum between "high" and "low" fantasy. Its seems like you're just putting your own personal cutoff all the way down at 0%, which is fine as an opinion to have, but I dont think its consistent with the general consensus
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
Meh?

There's a spectrum between "hard" and "soft" sci fi...there's a spectrum between "high" and "low" fantasy. Its seems like you're just putting your own personal cutoff all the way down at 0%, which is fine as an opinion to have, but I dont think its consistent with the general consensus
Please, there's nothing technological about those airships. They're just sailing galleons with a bunch of magic that makes them fly. Calling that technology instead of magic is beyond me.

I guess the opinion of the creator of the setting is less informed than yours!
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
I guess the opinion of the creator of the setting is less informed than yours!

I mean he used a lot of existing tropes and motifs, for one...and for two, he's not the only person who's built on the lore of Eberron - D&D is by very nature a shared storytelling setting

So yes, he might not have intended to make it steampunk, he might not like that people call it that, but it still is
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
I mean he used a lot of existing tropes and motifs, for one...and for two, he's not the only person who's built on the lore of Eberron - D&D is by very nature a shared storytelling setting

So yes, he might not have intended to make it steampunk, he might not like that people call it that, but it still is
Now, one of the articles you linked says:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/05/dd-eberron-where-steampunk-magic-collide.html]
It’s why, I think the world feels so dynamic. A lot of imagination was poured into this setting. The pulp, noir, and steampunk-esque (though again, I say it’s more like the magitek you see in games like Final Fantasy 3/6) influences really help shape the setting. It’s why you can have places like the City of Sharn, which has this big “please blow me up” sign hanging around it. And why you can get caught up in struggles like the Warforged uprising/self-determination conflict, or trying to untangle a number of other interwoven plots.
Heh says it's more magitek than steampunk.


The second article you linked to me says:
Eberron 5e - Player's Guide to Steampunk D&D Campaign — SkullSplitter Dice
It’s not fair to dismiss Eberron as just a steampunk setting, because it is so much more, for one thing it’s all magic, no steam, magepunk? It still ranks as many long time D&D players as their all-time favorite settings for a reason.
Ok, another one who doesn't quite qualify it as steampunk.

Titles are misleading. They're often used to grab the reader's attention, but if you read the content... it says something else.

Honestly, it's hard to classify it as steampunk because the similarities with the genre are superficial, and if you know the setting in depth and not just a cursory description, you realize that it fits very little.

But if you're happy to consider it steampunk, go ahead; it's just a matter of semantics when it comes to gameplay. That said, I personally trust what the creator of the setting says more (and he's not the only WOTC writer who says that) than what random reviewers say. And even then... well, you see, your links don't quite fit it as steampunk.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
No, it's not technology. Technology would be based on principles that exist in real life and are supported by Earth science.
Yes, it is. No, it not would be based you think it would.
That's arcane science, because all of that works through magic and is supported by arcane, not technical, principles.
It's irrelevant. Arcane science still science and arcane technology still technology because they based by same principles as mundane or sci-fi high-tec.
I repeat, the magic of Eberron isn't mystical. It's scientific
Then you full support Droid and my view point. Science generates technology as a practical embodiment of theory. Cool! 8)
guess the opinion of the creator of the setting is less informed than yours!
It is. His personal opinion is no more important than any other. An artist can draw a cow and say it's a horse. Are we obliged to take his word for it, or, nevertheless, seeing a cow, we will say that this is a cow, not a horse, and what the artist sees there is his personal sexual problems? ;)
 
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Anurakh

Little Nixie
Of course, of course. Just read the description of steampunk on the wiki and you'll see that it doesn't fit with Eberron. Eberron has superficial similarities, but they remain superficial.

But if you want to consider it steampunk, go ahead. If you want to think the author of the setting doesn't know what he's talking about, go ahead. After all, if you're stuck in your opinion, nothing anyone says will change your mind. I've given plenty of arguments. For the rest, read the description of steampunk.

Technology isn't the same as magitek. I still maintain that Eberron doesn't have technological advancements. They're magical advancements, at most, magitech advancements.
 
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FaceDancer

Olde Wurm
Listening to both side of this is tough, because I see both sides of it.

That being said I would rather have less of a technical/science based approach to my D&D worlds and just have everything powered by unicorn farts.
I've always had a mild aversion to steampunk ( with the Looking Glass Thief games being an exception to that).
 

FaceDancer

Olde Wurm
Never played it! 😟

I have a ton of games I need to play, but DDO has pretty much consumed all of my game time (SSG likes that part...)
 

Purr

Well-known member
It would be cool to see Riva silverblade make an appearance. I know we've got a paladin iconic already, but the different knight orders would be neat to see incorporated.
 

Bjond

Well-known member
Ok then. Ask me a question and then excoriate me for answering
It was a very good answer, too, without getting preachy about the various views.

OTH, I recall an adage about pigs & mud. Gotta say, that is one pleased porker over there.
 

MaeveTuohy

Active member
Consider, for a moment, the significance: Dragonlance, arguably the best D&D world setting, rivaled only by the High Fantasy of the Forgotten Realms. And Lord Soth, archetypal villain slain and resurrected in the mists of Ravenloft in a notorious retcon that people still talk about. We got it in the latest coffer dragon mount and all - but bro, the armor in the new patron coffer, a death knight's armor, it is hands down the best armor art Ive seen in this game to date. Hands down. I'm not glazing. Massive W. A work of art. The artist deserves a raise. Of course this is my opinion and people may disagree, but I see it as a signal of great things ahead. If this is the trajectory we are on, then the future of DDO is a bright and wondrous indeed. S-Tier. (PS - please more Dragonlance!)

Greyhawk over Dragonlance any day.
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
No, their objections weren't just to the "punk" art, but to the fact that the "steam" aspect doesn't fit with Eberron. You're focusing only on the Victorian aesthetic, but you don't realize that steam implies steam-based technology (in fact, this genre implies that the motor of technology is steam, not electricity, as was historically the case), and Eberron doesn't use steam. It uses magic to replace technology, and it doesn't use steam.

So it can't be steampunk, because Eberron neither uses technology (it's magic) nor does it use steam. Even the Victorian aspect is highly debatable. Just because the overall technological level is roughly late 19th century doesn't make the aesthetic entirely Victorian. Look, Sharn is a city that looks very modern even by our standards. Yes, there are lamplighters lighting lamps, but these aren't the gas lamps of the 19th century, but magical lights that have a very different aesthetic. Damn, the train runs on lightning! No smoking locomotives, it's lightning! Socially, the society isn't Victorian, even though there's still a monarchy and nobility, but it's a surprisingly cosmopolitan and open-minded society, with very little racism (even the criticisms of warforged and changelings are mild compared to the Victorian mentality) and no gender segregation, and without all those prudish scruples of the Victorian era.

Sometimes classifying a game or work within a genre is tricky. But Eberron really doesn't fit as steampunk. You're not the only one who's called Eberron steampunk, no, but that doesn't mean it's true. Again, the creator of the setting himself dismisses it. If you want to think it fits, well, fine, it's just semantics after all. But if you have the creator of the setting saying no, it doesn't fit, maybe you should reconsider a bit, right?

As for the ships being technology, no way. Using Repair has been a thing for the DDO devs in Precious cargo, who said that Knowledge Arcane or, in its absence, UMD aren't used on the table. In fact, on the tabletop, it has to be that way because there aren't any skill called Repair in the 3.5 skill category. Craft skills are used to repair objects.

Let's review what an Eberonian airship is:

- A physical hull constructed of a magical wood that doesn't exist in real life and is almost weightless. The hull isn't particularly aerodynamic because it's literally like a galleon designed to sail on water. Furthermore, although it's designed for high-altitude flight, the deck isn't enclosed, with all that entails in terms of strong winds and pressure issues that should make it impossible to stay on deck. In other words: nothing scientific or technological about its design. It's a ship designed for water but with it is able to fly. In other words, magic, not technology. But building the physical hull requires ordinary science. This absolutely non-aerodynamic physical container is the only "technological" part of the ship.

-Elemental engine. The heart of it is the elemental core, an engraved sphere of brass and mithral with a Khyber dragonshard at the center. A raw elemental is bound to this dragonshard. The elemental is absolutely anchored to the core and can’t be easily released; what the engine does is to pull it out from the core, stretching it out across the ship’s systems and the ring. So, more magic here. No technology.

-Elemental Veins.
They are auxiliary devices engraved with sigils and inlaid with Eberron dragonshards (so, magical in nature!) and channel power through the ship. In addition to directly connecting the core to the elemental ring, these channel the secondary enchantments of the focusing nodes and the wind wards. So, another arcane device. It’s not technological, it’s magical. You are not going to find any “elemental device” in the real life. It’s fantasy.

-Focusing nodes.
Superficially similar to the conductor stones used in the lightning rail and serve a similar role; they are placed at critical vein junctures and help to draw out and stabilize the power of the core. Focusing nodes also maintain an enchantment that maintains a consistent temperature within the vessel, even at high altitudes that would typically be bitterly cold. So, more magic. No technology.

-Wind wards.
An airship is an open-deck vessel that moves swiftly through the upper atmosphere. What keeps people from being blown off the deck? How can people breathe at high altitudes? How does an airship handle turbulence? The wind wards are the answer to these questions. An airship is enveloped in a ward that shunts both wind and small objects (such as birds) around the vessel, as well as maintaining air pressure within the wards. The wind wards are also play a role in maneuvering the ship; the ring provides forward thrust, but the envelope of winds helps the vessel turn. While the wards are controlled by the Wheel of Wind and Water, they draw power from the focusing nodes and have their own system of “ward wings” that must be maintained and adjusted by the crew. Ok, this is evocation magic anchored with abjuration spells. No technology here!

-The Wheel of Wind and Water.
This is the dragonmark focus item that controls the ship. It has two purposes: it allows the captain to interface with the elemental, helping to calm it and to direct speed and thrust; and it also allows the captain to maintain the wind wards, and use them to direct fine maneuvering. More magic! This is a magic item. You have the crafting requirements on my last post lol

-The pilot needs to have the Mark of the Storm, More magic here.
Keith Baker says he'd allow a character without the Mark to pilot the ship, but only because characters are special and have potential that the world's NPCs lack. And even then, it would require a ton of skill checks.

As you can see, there's no technology on an airship beyond the hull (which is a boat for navigating through water, not air, lol). All the systems that enable flight aren't founded in science, but in arcane knowledge—in other words, in magical science. It's magic, droid.

When you have a spaceship in science fiction, or a hovercar, or any other tecnological device, it's assumed to operate under scientific premises that would work in our world even if we don't yet have the technology for it. But that's not the case with the airships of Eberron, or any other arcane advancement in the setting. These ships will never be achieved in real life because they require magic that doesn't exist. The lighting rail will never exist in our world because its construction and operation involve the use of magic. Hell, the lamps I mentioned earlier have never existed in our world because their operation and aesthetic are magical; they're not the gas lamps of the 19th century. There are no mechanical clocks in Eberron lol; time is measured with prestidigitation cantrips and some similar orations of divine or primal classes.

You can insist it's technology, but that doesn't make it real. It's magic, pure magic. Magic presented as if it were science, because that's the intention of the creator of the setting: to create a world where magic replaces technology.

Obviously, magic is anchored in physical objects. But when you have a cloak of flying in D&D, you don't say it's magic-fused technology because that flight magic is anchored in a piece of clothing! No, you say it's a magic item. Magictech is just a word, but the reality of Eberron's magical devices is that they're created by magic, that they work by magic, and that they're designed with "arcane science" and not with "real science."

And yes, if something goes wrong with the ship, you might need to repair the physical container of the magic (using craft skills or repair/mending spells - in DDO's case it would be repair skill), but you will also need to repair the ship's enchantments, and that requires Knowledge Arcane or Spellcraft (UMD is not for repairing, it's for getting something to work without really knowing how you're doing it, which might be required to get the helm working without the Mark of the Storm), or maybe that is not enough and some enchantments have to be recreated from scratch.
^^^ this

Eberron is essentially our modern age but with everything that runs on electricity replaced by magic.
 

Drunken.dx

Well-known member
Can’t lines be blurred when categorizing sub-genres of fictional works? So Ebberon spans multiple genres—it doesn’t firmly fit into a single arbitrary category.

Manufacturing techniques are technology, and in DDO, it is driven by magic. It’s still technology that has advanced beyond Stone Age technology (or any other arbitrary reference).
That's correct.

If we're gonna nitpick we can find examples of various genres in most, if not all D&D settings.

IIRC warforged DO exist in forgotten realms, they're just rarer than ebberon.

Not to mention flesh golems, which were inspired by Frankensteins construct, and that novel IS considered science fiction, so technically speaking, we could say that every fantasy setting using flesh golems fulfills conditions to be called science fiction
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
^^^ this

Eberron is essentially our modern age but with everything that runs on electricity replaced by magic.

I dont think that's really accurate, though...

We dont have magical TVs, we dont have cars or planes, we dont have personal communication devices, there's no analogue to the internet or any IT, we dont have anything similar to modern entertainment technology, our weaponry isnt anything resembling modern tech...pretty much anything that'd be iconic for late 20th/early 21st C. Its far more in line with "late 19th/early 20th C, but it all runs on magic" IMO
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
Its far more in line with "late 19th/early 20th C, but it all runs on magic" IMO
This is right. Some magical advances in Eberron can be considered contemporary, but most are more or less related to the late 19th or early 20th century, although with a more modern (or fantasy related) aesthetic.

That said, the advancements available to the masses lag behind those available to adventurers or wealthy NPCs. The masses have to make do with the "Sivis telegraph." Adventurer characters or wealthy NPCs can buy or craft themselves (if they're capable) their own communication stones, or even crystal balls, which can act like modern telephones in that they produce instant communication, via voice and such. And the aesthetics of these objects are in the hands of the players and the DM, they don't have to have the classic D&D aesthetics. (The difference for the people of Eberron is that Sivis services are cheap, those magic items are very expensive, and if you can't craft them yourself, finding them can be difficult)

But the general magitek is from the late 19th century, yes.
 
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Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
They just don’t have TV’s.

Airplanes == Airships

Maglev Trains == Lightning Rail Train

Cars/Trucks == Elemental Land Carts/Earthsleds

Phones == Speaking Stones

Guns == Runearms/wands

Artificial Intelligences == Warforged
 
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