Air Savant Spell List

Bliv

Well-known member
The EA destiny also lines up with fire more too. so...
Untrue.

The EA destiny align with air, ice, fire equally.

Air : Primal Avatar, Macrotechnic, Draconic Incarnation
Ice : Primal Avatar, Magus of the Eclipse, Draconic Incarnation
Fire : Primal Avatar, Exalted Angel, Draconic Incarnation

As Honkin mentionned, there's also a case to go Shadowdancer if you go Feydark/force/DC. In that case, you'd go Primal Avatar, Shadowdancer, Shiradi Champion.

DBZ just pointed out the obvious truth: acid is the only one out of the loop.
 

minamber

Well-known member
I've tries all variations of sorc, including 3 recent chaosmancer lives as the 3 relevant elements (acid is unfortunately pointless past early heroics).

As far as I'm concerned, Wild mage is bad because wild surges are very annoying, including neutral ones you can't get rid of, and because the extra spells and SLA, while decent, would need you to get alignment spellpower which is hard to fit in unless you're going fire sorc.

Outside of wild mage, every element has its strengths.
Air is best for soloing thanks to wings, knockdown immunity and buffed sonic spells.
Fire has the best aoe dmg, but you kind of need to get ruin/greater ruin as well as tier 5 draconic for enhanced ruin if you want to have good single-target dps.
Water has the best single target dps, best filigree and gear support and the best ED support since you can get time stop and other magister goodies. It's not great when you need AoE dmg, but others can fill that role (quick cutter is far better aoe than any sorc spell anyway). Ice is therefore the best by far for raids, but that's not saying much, and you'll still be less useful than most weapon users.
 

drjoans

kinda-known member
Untrue.

The EA destiny align with air, ice, fire equally.

Air : Primal Avatar, Macrotechnic, Draconic Incarnation
Ice : Primal Avatar, Magus of the Eclipse, Draconic Incarnation
Fire : Primal Avatar, Exalted Angel, Draconic Incarnation

As Honkin mentionned, there's also a case to go Shadowdancer if you go Feydark/force/DC. In that case, you'd go Primal Avatar, Shadowdancer, Shiradi Champion.

DBZ just pointed out the obvious truth: acid is the only one out of the loop.
I was eludiing to the fact that EA gives a few more fire sp and has some fire abilities. I think you mistook my statement about exalted angel with primal avatar as your example clearly lists PA for every one of those elements and clearly only lists EA(exalted) for fire
 

Bliv

Well-known member
I was eludiing to the fact that EA gives a few more fire sp and has some fire abilities. I think you mistook my statement about exalted angel with primal avatar as your example clearly lists PA for every one of those elements and clearly only lists EA(exalted) for fire
I did misunderstand what you meant.

But I'm curious: Macrotechnic has some lightning abilities and Magus has some cold abilities.

What is the net gain you see in fire over the others? (Not trying to make a point, picking up your brain as to what I might be missing.)

And yeah Primal Avatar is a must, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of which element you choose. Same for Draconic.
 

drjoans

kinda-known member
It really boils down to as a low life character you're prob not gonna hit the uber dc's and top 5% dmg from cold. So that leaves lightning and fire. Which in my opinion have better on spell hit effects. Fire dot vs vulnerability. Then it's just preference. I like the multiple healing abilities for fire in primal that double as dmg. In the end though I just like meteor swarm over chain lightning. It hits 3 times and has a more easily predictable aoe. Plus I mean fireballs are iconic 😆
 

Pilgrim

Well-known member
1: Jump, Nightshield, Shield, Sonic Blast
2: Blur, Knock, Resist Energy, Web
3: Displacement, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Rage
4: Dimension Door, Enervation, Fire Shield, Shout
5: Ball Lightning, Break Enchantment, Protection from Elements, Teleport
6: Chain Lightning, Greater Heroism, Necrotic Ray
7: Finger of Death, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Prismatic Spray
8: Greater Shout, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Sunburst
9: Thunderstrike, Energy Drain, Hold Monster Mass


Lvl 2 - blur is redundent with displacment.
3 - haste is almost never used, rage is only viable if extended. consiter some of the cloud effects. check if lighting bolt can fit into your rotation as cain and ball out scale it.
4- enervation could be replaced by phantom killer. Shout is good with fatesinger -dont let people say otherwise.
5 - meh, not much this lvl.
6 -necrotic ray is an amazing spell but your not going to have the spell power to run it, greater hero can be scrolled. Circle of life/death are good options.
7 - prismatic spray is decent for wildmage, otherwise replace with... symbol of stunning.
8 - swap irresistable dance for trap the soul. between web/greatershout/mass hold monster your unlikey to nead this.
9 - energy drain is your worst spell here. its usefull but might find beter use in wail/iceburg. but i dont know.

try to get t4 in fatesinger is quite singeristic with air savent - pluck the string may be your best epic strike.
 

Bliv

Well-known member
At the end of the day, it always rolls back to playstyle. What works for you?

Give each of these a try and see which one works best for what you are trying to achieve.
 

Deathdefy

Active member
I've been playing an Air Savant at cap for a while so sharing some quick thoughts as there are plenty of reasonable directions.

Main thing I'll flag is you can be sitting on +11CL(and +7MCL) to both lightning spells AND SONIC SPELLS. I like Wild Mage and would recommend it when you can; the surges are annoying but +4CL/MCL is imo impossible to ignore.

The only DC destinies are Primal Avatar, Fatesinger and Macrotechnic:
- Primal Avatar and Fatesinger are both straight +2 CHA
- Macrotechnic is the more complicated Raid X-Bow in main hand, Toven's Prototype in off-hand for +2 CHA.
- To do that in Macrotechnic you eschew a crafted Lamordian quarterstaff with +2 Exc Cha so it's only a +1 CHA gain, which may or may not hit a breakpoint depending on your curses and race.
- Devs are you aware the 'Epic bonus to DC' from the cores of each ED are the only non-stacking part of ED Cores? Including on the off-chance you're balancing around a bonus +8 DC.

Your DPS destinies are Primal Avatar, Fatesinger and Draconic:
- Primal's Mantle is superb for Air Sorc; it's 3 elements of Lightning/Ice/Sonic with a 5 second cooldown on each.
- For boss rotations, I run:
Thunderstroke, Chain Lightning (Lightning, hoping one will get the cooldown started),
Iceberg, Polar Ray (Cold, hoping one will get the cold cooldown started),
Greater Shout, Shout (Sonic, hoping one will get the sonic cooldown started),
and repeat.
- The Chain Lightning is sub-optimal over a [Lightning Bolt with Master of Lightning] but I can't justify the feat for a single spell.
- I CAN justify Master of Music for Greater Shout and Shout when combined with Fatesinger's double greater shout damage though. Ultimately I can only hit CR39 for greater shout (from memory), but the cap is 40, so I don't get the full benefit.
- I don't run an epic strike - that's personal preference; none of the cooldowns fit well.

Your healing destinies are Exalted Angel, Primal and Shiradi:
- Fire Savant should absolutely go EA. I try it now and again even on Air Sorc and it's phenomenal; free Healing from Wings, CMW SLA, free Intensify in T5 is crazy good, as is the -30% threat.
- I think Primal is 'enough heals' with Cocoon. I don't grab Reborn in Fire (or Thunder Snow as the cooldown is annoying plus it misses painfully often imo), but honestly probably should for the healing.
- I consider myself locked into Primal (best mantle + DC) and Fatesinger (best threat reduction + DC); and prefer Draconic over Shiradi for the moderate Spell Power gains, but Shiradi is maybe enough heals (with a Legendary Guide to Animal Handling augment, and could be primary dps mantle too)

Your threat lowering destinies are Fatesinger, EA, Shiradi, Magister and Shadowdancer:
Quick maths:
- 15% quiver (insight bonus, doesn't stack with insightful mystic diversion items)
- 20% dark diversion/occultation augment
- 35% fatesinger (you're an air/sonic sorc - this is a gimme)
= 30% gap to reach 100% threat reduction.
You don't have to reach 100% threat reduction but it's really nice.

Items don't quite make it:
- The highest non-set item bonus is 23%, most likely on the Legendary Socket Band. Delicate Thimbletips are 20% but are also decent for the slot (albeit #Moonless).
- Quality Diversion only goes up to 4% (and has no good options) <-- I suspect Legendary Calamitous sceptre was supposed to have something here (make it 7%) devs if you ever read this given the heroic one has 1%.
- The literal only way to make it to 100% with items without going a second threat reduction destiny is the ToEE water set 'Legendary Temple's Tide' for -20% threat on everything; and I can confirm it stacks with Dark Diversion essence.

- Magister gives you nothing; it's for Cold Savants and Wizards.
- Shadowdancer doesn't do enough.
- Shiradi is viable.
- EA is viable.
- I sit at 93% (with the socket band) and am sad about it.

What was the point of this? The person just wanted spells!
Spells are heavily linked with your EDs and Feats.
- If you want EA as primary Mantle (e.g. Draconic/Fatesinger/EA), build Prismatic Ray/Spray and Meteor Swarm into your rotation to evoke the Mantle.
- If you want Primal Avatar as your main Mantle, get Iceberg and Polar Ray.
- If you want Draconic, you can probably skip the ice spells (and associated gearing); but consider what else goes in their spot in the rotation; they might be worth it regardless.

In any world, very seriously consider making 'Master of Music' fit to improve Greater Shout and Shout which are super low-cooldown spells you're already accidentally specialised in from Air Savant.

Level 8 I think is the most controversial level. I don't rate Sunburst outside of THTH. I like Trap the Soul and feel obliged to take Polar Ray as a second cold/ice dps spell though it doesn't spark joy.
Level 7 I like Prot from Elements, Mass if you're going Primal Avatar - it gets really good and adds some survivability in Threats/DoV in particular if you can spam quickened it and normal Prot from Elements on yourself. I'd skip Finger of Death - I find I can gear and feat for 3 schools (both in feats and ED options) - I go Evo/Ench/Conj. Conj is swappable for Illusion or I suppose Necro but I'd just leave it; Trap the Soul is conjuration and enough.
Level 6 I like Flesh to Stone. I'd take it over Necrotic Ray. On 'you can scroll that' logic for not taking GH; your hands are your artifact. That artifact has a ton of CHA on it which equate to SP. If the first thing you do is, mid-buffing, swap out of that, you lose a lot of SP.

I'll shut up now
 
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Honkin

Active member
- Fire Savant should absolutely go EA. I try it now and again even on Air Sorc and it's phenomenal; free Healing from Wings, CMW SLA, free Intensify in T5 is crazy good, as is the -30% threat.

Clerics and Favored Souls shouldn't be going T5 EA, much less Sorcerers. The Epic Moment is situationally useful for Turn Undead in raids like THTH but otherwise it's a bust.

The only relevant T5 for any nuking sorc is Draconic for Ruin Intensified. Other viable options are Shadowdancer (for Weird), or Fatesinger or Magus for more support-oriented builds (for Turn the Tide/Cut the Strings and Time Stop, respectively).

Primal Avatar's mantle is useful for raid healers, but personally I don't use it on a sorc. Too many raids are DPS checks and the added damage from Draconic mantle is better in those situations. The spell cooldown reduction is also useful for your instakills and keeping your main damage spells off cooldown. Magus also has its uses as a DC caster.
 

Krythan

Active member
I've been playing an Air Savant at cap for a while so sharing some quick thoughts as there are plenty of reasonable directions.

This is amazing! Thank you! So, so much to digest here. You're touching on mechanics that I haven't even dipped my toes into yet, so I expect that every time I read this post it's going to make a little more sense.

Thank you! Really appreciate the time, and I've got a lot to work with now...
 

Deathdefy

Active member
Clerics and Favored Souls shouldn't be going T5 EA, much less Sorcerers. The Epic Moment is situationally useful for Turn Undead in raids like THTH but otherwise it's a bust.

The only relevant T5 for any nuking sorc is Draconic for Ruin Intensified. Other viable options are Shadowdancer (for Weird), or Fatesinger or Magus for more support-oriented builds (for Turn the Tide/Cut the Strings and Time Stop, respectively).

Primal Avatar's mantle is useful for raid healers, but personally I don't use it on a sorc. Too many raids are DPS checks and the added damage from Draconic mantle is better in those situations. The spell cooldown reduction is also useful for your instakills and keeping your main damage spells off cooldown. Magus also has its uses as a DC caster.
Writing back as this is an advice thread then leaving it as we're on different wavelengths and both perspectives will hopefully be useful to other readers.

T5's are generally bad:
- Sorcs should nab the +3 DCs from the T5 that can be most productively reached (i.e. spend 33 EDP in that tree), then
- Think long and hard before spending more points in T5 over other options; particularly T4 Efficient Metamagics.
- BUT, T5 EA's 1 EDP for 0Sp Intensify is genuinely amazing and I'd take it every day of the week if EA was a destiny I was taking anyway (i.e. I'm a fire sorc).

EDP, on a min-max dps focused endgame sorc, are stretched way too tightly to allow consideration of T5's in a vaccuum:
As I have it on hand, my air sorc calculus is:
"I need at least 26 into Fatesinger for Core 4, +2 Cha, Double Damage G Shout, and Enlarge" as these are crucial to my dps and dcs, and
"I need at least 21 into Draconic for Core 4, and the DoT for the Mantle" as this is crucial to my dps, and
"I need at least 21 in Primal for Core 4, Coccoon, +2 Cha" as these are crucial to my dps and dcs.
"Of these, I need 33 into one tree for T5's 3 DC - what are my options to get there and spend afterward"

Answers:
- 'Oh boy, Primal has 2 different Improved Metamagics and a +15 USP in T4, I'll go for T5 in it, then get the other Efficient Metamagic in T4 Draconic!' vs
- 'T5 Fatesinger has some real nice-to-haves, I'm already at 26 points so only need 4 more, and I can use EDP productively on Spell Pen enhancements to get there, then go for the Efficient Metamagics with what's leftover' vs
- 'Wow, Draconic really sucks!'.

Point being:
- None of the T5s are good enough to justify a generally unsupportive tree.
- Optimally, work out your EDs, their breakpoints, then the absolute final consideration is who gets the T5 + final points.

Final notes, as 'Ruin for dps checks' activated my must-respond-despite-better-judgement threshold:
- Sustainability is really important in today's endgame.
- Pug endgame is LH Threats and R1 DoV. As another post put it, "Are you going to do your share of LH Karliath's HP?".
- Ruin's awful damage:cost proposition, and cost of 2 Epic Feats, makes it absolutely untakeable outside of an R1 item farming life (though in that circumstance, heck yes Draconic T5!).

These days:
- Sorcs should spend a significant portion of their AP, EDP, Items, and Augment Slots (Tea/How to Cast Faster/Meridian Fragment) in Efficient Metamagics and Spell Cost Reductions so they can nuke with real spells for a long time.
- That's not at the expense of DPS; that's so they can maintain dps via Maximize/Empower/Intensify/Quicken on real high damage spells (Savant SLAs are not worth taking as they're low-damage-die, low-cap).
- Heighten eats SP like crazy so I don't put it on anything except the necessary evils of CC/IK (looking at you 'Web').
 

Honkin

Active member
Final notes, as 'Ruin for dps checks' activated my must-respond-despite-better-judgement threshold:
- Sustainability is really important in today's endgame.
- Pug endgame is LH Threats and R1 DoV. As another post put it, "Are you going to do your share of LH Karliath's HP?".
- Ruin's awful damage:cost proposition, and cost of 2 Epic Feats, makes it absolutely untakeable outside of an R1 item farming life (though in that circumstance, heck yes Draconic T5!).

I can chalk up the rest of your posts to differences between savants (like I mentioned, I mostly play water or fire) or differences in play style. However, I do think it's bad advice to tell someone to take Shout but not ruin/gruin. I have done sorc lives with and without ruin, and the difference in damage output is noticeable.

I solo r6's and pug plenty of r10's. Ruin and gRuin are both critical components of my damage output as a sorcerer. I think you are drastically underestimating Ruin Intensified and other high-level spells. Personally, I don't take any Master of X feats, nor do I take the Mental Toughness line. I have about 6k spellpoints at cap and I rarely run out before I make it to a shrine. I take Heighten at 12 and never turn it off. Perhaps because I'm an old dog who cut his teeth back when Carnival and the other epic House quests were end-game, but I don't have SP management issues at cap. I've got my fair share of SP clickies as well, primarily RoSS.

I am not trying to single-handedly DPS down Karliath, that's for sure. I keep my debuffs and DoTs up, especially since as a fire savant my immunity strip helps the party do more dps if they're using weapons with Dripping with Magma. Ruin is very handy for taking down the orange name trash that can't be instakilled in both of the raids that you mentioned, specifically the Eruption Elementals in Threats and the Bone Nagas in DoV.

I have strayed far from OP's original request so I'll stop there, but this comment may be helpful for others if they're trying to understand the nuances in different playstyles and savants.
 

minamber

Well-known member
Final notes, as 'Ruin for dps checks' activated my must-respond-despite-better-judgement threshold:
- Sustainability is really important in today's endgame.
- Pug endgame is LH Threats and R1 DoV. As another post put it, "Are you going to do your share of LH Karliath's HP?".
- Ruin's awful damage:cost proposition, and cost of 2 Epic Feats, makes it absolutely untakeable outside of an R1 item farming life (though in that circumstance, heck yes Draconic T5!).

These days:
- Sorcs should spend a significant portion of their AP, EDP, Items, and Augment Slots (Tea/How to Cast Faster/Meridian Fragment) in Efficient Metamagics and Spell Cost Reductions so they can nuke with real spells for a long time.
- That's not at the expense of DPS; that's so they can maintain dps via Maximize/Empower/Intensify/Quicken on real high damage spells (Savant SLAs are not worth taking as they're low-damage-die, low-cap).
- Heighten eats SP like crazy so I don't put it on anything except the necessary evils of CC/IK (looking at you 'Web').

YMMV on that. Especially for fire sorc, but even for air, ruin/gruin with ruin intensified is a huge single target dps boost. Without those, unless you're a cold sorc, your boss dps will suck. Sustainability is nice, but if it means you barely do any damage, it's pointless.

Personally, I don't have a problem with running out of sp at cap except in raids where it's pretty much inevitable unless the group you're in has very good dps. Even then, imo it's better to have good burst dps for a few minutes than to have bad sustained dps for 15 minutes.
Frankly, if what you want is sustained dps, then you should stop playing sorc and try any weapon user, they're simply so much better at that there is no comparison these days.
 

Krythan

Active member
I'm learning a ton, thanks for all the guidance! Re-did my spell list last night - should carry me through 'til 30 for my next ER. Beyond that, we're planning our next TR/build, so all this guidance is on point and gives us something to work with!
 

Deathdefy

Active member
Nooo hahaha don't come for Shout! Shout is beyond great with Master of Music, Fatesinger and Air Savant.
"All Air Savants should get Shout" - absolutely me.

Shout is filler (like 4th highest damage spell maybe?) for the 6 spell air sorc rotation but it's also genuinely decent. The rest of this is purely from a damage perspective (also it's AoE damage and heals allies!).

It has a 2 second cooldown and costs me the same as its base cost, 15SP with max/emp/quicken on, which is what I run - (no Intensify on it for me as it doubles the cost for a 6.1% dps improvement; a filthy sustainability trade-off! Better spells like Thunderstroke get to keep Intensify on). Shout is capped for Air Sorc Wild Mages at MCL39 and does 1d6+3 sonic damage per level.

Back of the napkin math for Shout is:
39 (CLs) * 6.5 (avg damage) = 253.5 (so ~1/4 a T5 Draconic Ruin)
* Fatesinger Harmonic Resonance (1.3) = 329.55 <-- I'm assuming the max of 3 stacks which happens extremely quickly; I think this is reasonable.
* Fatesinger 50% boost (1.5) = 494.325 (so ~1/2 a T5 Draconic Ruin, or ~1/4 a T5 Draconic Greater Ruin)

I am going to round it off to at least 1/4 of a T5 Draconic Greater Ruin due to better crits:
- Sonic crits backed by a dedicated savant tree, Scion of Feywild and benefitting from 9% Energy Crits are going to be > Force Crits even if a fire sorc goes full-rogue in Feydark at the expense of Wild Mage.
- For hard figures, I'm rocking sonic crits of 68% (I'm using a Sonic 22% Lore item; Lightning is 24% and Ice is 22%), with a modifier of 109 Crit Damage (assuming no Festive/Wellspring), and sonic spellpower of 1008 standing in town.

Yes, Shout is only a little over 1/2 the damage of a T5 Draconic improved Ruin, but it's an AoE spammable every 2 seconds and costs 15 SP (and is a minor part of a higher damage rotation). Shout, for Air Savants with Master of Music and the Fatesinger bonuses, rocks.

On necessary filler spells in larger dps rotations:
Can someone please explain what a Ruin Fire Sorc's spell rotation is? What do you do to the Lamordia Ettin?
 

minamber

Well-known member

Your numbers are nonsense. You put a lot of effort into showing how spellpower and crits boost shout to do decent damage, but completely ignore the fact that spellpower and crits also apply to ruin (you just have to slot force spellpower and crit somewhere, and the best orb for fire sorc conveniently also has those), meaning it actually does a lot more than twice the damage of shout.
Not to mention the fact that while ruin is indeed not great dps by itself, anyone who takes ruin will also take ruin intensified from t5 draconic, and even 1 tick from that will do more damage than shout.
 

waysider

Well-known member
Electric Loop is quite a good spell which you'll get as an SLA. Dmg is ok and also stuns dazes.

You'll get Lightning Bolt as an SLA in the Air Savant tree, that could be a swap slot if you want some other lvl 3 spell
 
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