Alchemical Attunement comparison in dino craft (fangs)

[Orbry]

Hey folks! So I've finally decided to try and build myself a nice late game weapon which in this case happened to be Dino Bone Heavy Repeater Xbow. Now it won't be complete without slotting all four dino augments, will it?

Claw - was easy +2 to main attribute, INT for me.
Scale - was pretty much random pick, took flamescale as if I get it right they don't scale off anything and 15d6 damage is completely irrelevant at this stage.
Horn - don't have it yet but it will be Sparkhorn with vulnerability stacks, I assume any persentage-based dmg boost is good late game.

And then it was time to pick fang and that's where I got lost. A quick survey of friendlist/guildmates showed that Meltfang is peoples favorite, yet no one could explain why it is good and being a number nerd I would have hard time falling asleep w/o understanding why it's good So I went to wiki and learned about alchemical attunements and found that Meltfang is mere 50d10 acid damage DoT at max stacks, which is ~275 avg dmg per tick every 2(?) seconds so roughly 150 dps which seems as negligible as 15d6 from the scale augment.

But then I've searched forums and googled the topic and found posts from knowledgeable guys on this forum (hi J1ng) that say Meltfang is indeed good, something does not add up... So here is summary of what I've gathered about those attunements, please correct me if something in the table is wrong and more importantly please someone explain me why meltfang is considered good and other fangs are considered bad? From this table they all seem negligible, below 150dps when we talk tens of millions of HP for raid bosses...

Aug type	Proc chance	Dmg on Hit	Dmg on DoT	Scaling	Internal CD	Tick/Attack rate	Estimate DPS
Flamefang	1%	10d440	0	none	1	3	66
Icefang	100%	0	100d10 ->10d100 avg of 55d10	(300%MP or SP) but only on Ki Bolt	30	0.5	151.25
Sparkfang	1%	10d440	0	none	1	3	66
Meltfang	100%	50d10	50d10 hits 2 times won't tick while continuosly reapplied	(300%MP or SP) but only on Ki Bolt affected by metamagic (at least with shurikens) affected by spell crit chance	0.5	0.5	~550

 

[Hobgoblin]

it does scale with mp doesnt it? or acid sp if cast from spell?

 

[Alternative]

Also note that alchemical earth attunement is also on Autumn Equinox ring, so if you happen to have that, dont craft meltfang.

 

[Raedier]

Meltfang and alchemical earth attunement have an ICD of 0.5 seconds, that means every second hit or so, you will get the full base damage on top of the dot damage, on top of that, it scales with doubleshot and debuffs, let's say your doubleshot is at 160% and your party is debuffing the boss for 45 MRR and 20% vulnerability, 275 (base damage) x2.6(doubleshot) x 1.45 (MRR debuffs) x1.2(vuln) = 1.2k average DPS.
Now 1.2k average DPS doesnt seem like a lot but in theorie you could get twice that added in every second due to the ICD wich means that 1.2k is now 3.6k average DPS wich doesnt seem like a lot either but for meta DPS builds every little number counts.
For reference, modern repeater builds can pump out ~8mil damage per minute wich is ~133k DPS.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

it does scale with mp doesnt it? or acid sp if cast from spell?

Only for ki bolt. And can crit too.

 

[Orbry]

Meltfang and alchemical earth attunement have an ICD of 0.5 seconds, that means every second hit or so, you will get the full base damage on top of the dot damage, on top of that, it scales with doubleshot and debuffs, let's say your doubleshot is at 160% and your party is debuffing the boss for 45 MRR and 20% vulnerability, 275 (base damage) x2.6(doubleshot) x 1.45 (MRR debuffs) x1.2(vuln) = 1.2k average DPS.
Now 1.2k average DPS doesnt seem like a lot but in theorie you could get twice that added in every second due to the ICD wich means that 1.2k is now 3.6k average DPS wich doesnt seem like a lot either but for meta DPS builds every little number counts.
For reference, modern repeater builds can pump out ~8mil damage per minute wich is ~133k DPS.

Lots of info here, I'll change the CD column for Meltfang, are numbers for other fangs CD correct?

Next could you clarify please "you will get the full base damage on top of the dot damage" line? Does it also make 10d10 on every hit in addition to DoT? Or 50d10? What about Icefang?

Regarding scaling, "it scales with doubleshot and debuffs" well yeah, but those are external multiplyers that apply pretty much for everything, aren't they? I was referring more to things like Spell Power/Ranged Power

Also note that alchemical earth attunement is also on Autumn Equinox ring, so if you happen to have that, dont craft meltfang.

Nope, don't have it, I was aware that these alchemical attunement effects have different sources and in general don't stack, but thx for noting

Only for ki bolt. And can crit too.

Did I get it right that Meltfang scales of Melee Power when used with Ki bolt? Do other attunements also scale off MP with ki strike? Are there ranged attacks that might apply RP scaling to these attunements?

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Did I get it right that Meltfang scales of Melee Power when used with Ki bolt?

I and @J1NG have different statement here: he think it scales with 3xMP, i believe it scales with SP. I don't check my MP specifically when testing scaling, but if on my shuri-thrower it was about 180, results may be exactly same as for 540 SP my shuri have. So need more testing. 8)

Do other attunements also scale off MP with ki strike?

Don't check specifically but think all like all DwM-like DoT.

Are there ranged attacks that might apply RP scaling to these attunements?

Unfortunately, no.

 

[saekee]

On my ki bolt monk with some debuffs going from weapons and some from other sources (shattered device, shadowdancer), my Theurgy of Winter's cold dots hit around 2K and crit up to 7K, roughly, non-reaper. 270ish Melee power (WiP) and around 650 cold spell power, I think 30ish spell crit damage boost only as she is acid-specced.

 

[Orbry]

On my ki bolt monk with some debuffs going from weapons and some from other sources (shattered device, shadowdancer), my Theurgy of Winter's cold dots hit around 2K and crit up to 7K, roughly, non-reaper. 270ish Melee power (WiP) and around 650 cold spell power, I think 30ish spell crit damage boost only as she is acid-specced.

That means Water Attunement also has same scaling on Ki Bolt as Acid, I'll put that into table. Also it seems the crit is based off spell crit

Now I can see appeal of Meltfang/Icefang for monks, but for others these DoT don't seem to be a big deal, do they?

Also I still have no idea what @Raedier meant saing "you will get the full base damage on top of the dot damage", anyone got a clue?

 

[Orbry]

I've bought Meltfang and made some testing today, big thanks to Stonejaw for volunteering!

With Heavy Repeater Xbow I got the following observations:
1. Stacks apply on every hit regardless of ICD, ICD only governess whether damage is done or not
2. DoT has only 2 extra ticks (not counting the on-hit damage that applied it)
3. Every renew of stack count resets the DoT tick timer, i.e. while you continually shooting the target you won't get DoT ticks
4. Damage does not scale of RP or SP
5. Dobuleshot does not affect amount of stacks applied
6. Damage is not affected by critical multipliers of weapon
7. When ICD is ready it will apply the 10d10 damage on-hit multiplied by stacks count and multiplied by doubleshot
8. It seems to also not be affected by spell crits, but not very sure on this one

The DoT effect is non-existent for RHXBOW since even w/o fussilade you apply stacks faster than they tick and thus never get their damage. The damage on-hit gets into full power after only 2 volleys and can either hit once on first shot or twice on first and third shot per volley, it seems there is very tight timing - both volley and ICD take about same amount of time and sometimes game counts Meltfang as ready before third shot sometimes it doesn't, thought double proc was more common than single proc.

So overall it is actually an on-hit effect rather than DoT, if we take max stacks and assume it procs two times per volley 66% of volleys we get roughly 275 + 275 * 0.66 = 456 extra dmg per hit, or roughly extra ~1.3k baseline DPS which is then affected by Doubleshot and other stuff. Nothing to write home about, I'd say the statments "Meltfang is awesome" that I heard in game are far-stretched, but extra DPS is still extra DPS

---- Edit ----
Just realised that I've calculated 456 extra dmg per volley, not per shot, so it's ~456 baseline DPS, not 1.3k, even less things to write home about

 

[saekee]

That means Water Attunement also has same scaling on Ki Bolt as Acid, I'll put that into table. Also it seems the crit is based off spell crit

Now I can see appeal of Meltfang/Icefang for monks, but for others these DoT don't seem to be a big deal, do they?

Also I still have no idea what @Raedier meant saing "you will get the full base damage on top of the dot damage", anyone got a clue?

I am pretty sure that all alchemical attunements scale off of ki bolts. I was using the electrical one and would see some big procs. I can test it at some point. One of my ki bolters has Meltfang with Theurgy of Winter; offhand is usually Undying but the DwM does not seem to proc always off ki bolt. Will need to check it out.

 

[Mokune]

If I had time and resources to craft or farm just one of these items, it looks like Meltfang/Alchemical Earth are hands down the best (even though Ice has a bit more DPS)?

I was lucky enough to get a Theurgy of Spring passed to me but looking at the stats, Artifact status and proc rate I just keep it in the bank and don't bother with the Tetris.

 

[Teth]

The alchemical attunements scale off metamagic feats for casters and the critical chance and damage of the element the attunement is. Dripping magma works identically as well, using only metas and spell chance/dmg

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Undying

DwM from this garbage proc only from physical attacks, not from spellz, single exception - Reflection of the Warblade. So no proc from bolt unfortunately. Use DoV shinies instead!

 

[Fisto Mk I]

The alchemical attunements scale off metamagic feats for casters

Incorrect.

critical chance

Correct.

damage

Incorrect.

Dripping magma works identically as well

Correct, so use crit chance only. 8)

 

[saekee]

DwM from this garbage proc only from physical attacks, not from spellz, single exception - Reflection of the Warblade. So no proc from bolt unfortunately. Use DoV shinies instead!

yes, I have a toon with Reflection and DwM indeed procs off ki bolt from it. I thought Undying would be a solid offhand for its vulnerability etc but have been disappointed. I usually use Maw on trash and then Dino on bosses

 

[Teth]

Incorrect.

Correct.

Incorrect.

Correct, so use crit chance only. 8)

Metas off

Metas on

 

[Raedier]

Metas off

Metas on

I went to test this, had 3k crits average without metas and 6-7k crits average with metas, seems like something is off here.
Looks as if the spellpower scaling on the dots is faulty or it only scales with Meta's.