All TR hearts should be available from heart seeds

[Anurakh]

See my reply to other poster just above.

I've read it, and I still see flawed reasoning. It's a curious fallacy to compare wanting to change an outdated system with buying racial lives with 200 seeds, something no one has ever proposed, not even people who hate reincarnation.

 

[mikarddo]

I've read it, and I still see flawed reasoning. It's a curious fallacy to compare wanting to change an outdated system with buying racial lives with 200 seeds, something no one has ever proposed, not even people who hate reincarnation.

We disagree then which is perfectly fine.

Imho you only see the specific example within your own desire and focus too much on that without considering the broader implications.

 

[mikarddo]

I think you're agreeing in principle but just negotiating on price lol

That would be a significant reduction in the opportunity cost compared to doing a 1-20 life... But i would support (and have suggested), eg, being able to earn epic lives while staying at cap, by earning 1.5x as much XP as going 20-30, and giving up rxp while you do. It's all about the opportunity cost.

And basically you're arguing opportunity cost too, which is absolutely true. Things need to have an opportunity cost proportional to the reward. But a good opportunity cost is not only proportional, it incentivizes and motivates gameplay in a positive way. That's what makes it a chase and not a grind.

I don't think TRing should have no opportunity cost, i just think its cost should be reimagined for 2025, and kept proportional with the much greater amount of TRing characters need to do now, compared to when the system was created (and largely unchanged since)

Good post, thanks.

Aye, maybe I just think that seeds are not enough/any opportunity cost. There is more than one grain of truth in that statement.

Maybe add 1-4 tokens to every epic / legendary sage reward list on reaper (number depending on saga, not random). That would be proper opportunity cost as there are other desireable rewards (xp, cards etcs) from those sagas. It would certainly expand where you could get the tokens including cap relevant play without making it "free".

 

[Anurakh]

We disagree then which is perfectly fine.

Imho you only see the specific example within your own desire and focus too much on that without considering the broader implications.

There's no broader implication, Mikarddo. Every change should be examined on its own merits and potential repercussions. Saying that changing one thing might lead to people wanting more changes doesn't make much sense, do you think?

As for this particular change, you have to look at its pros and cons. And there are very few cons. Other types of changes should be considered independently on their own merits and detriments; it doesn't make sense to chain them to this one. Adding tokens to more quests or adding hearts to seeds doesn't mean any other changes need to be made.

As for my own desire, I'll tell you that this change would be too late for me. I just finished my fifth racial&heroic completionist and I don't plan on making any more. I've used the iconic lives on the path to heroic completionist to restock tokens, and now I have enough for when the devs add new lives. No more massive grinds for me, so this change wouldn't do anything for me.

But I think it would be very beneficial for other players, and it's in the interest of the game's longevity for them to make the change (a quick change to make, especially the addition to seeds). In my own selfish interest, what I would do is push them to put filters on the crafting bank right away and get its bugs checked, since that bank is something that really gets on my nerves.

 

[Anurakh]

Good post, thanks.

Aye, maybe I just think that seeds are not enough/any opportunity cost. There is more than one grain of truth in that statement.

Maybe add 1-4 tokens to every epic / legendary sage reward list on reaper (number depending on saga, not random). That would be proper opportunity cost as there are other desireable rewards (xp, cards etcs) from those sagas. It would certainly expand where you could get the tokens including cap relevant play without making it "free".

Well, then they should remove tokens from quests that give experience in epic quests and add them as the only reward for quests that don't give experience. After all, as it is, they're "free" for people leveling up in epic quests. And most quests with tokens give you awesome experience!

And remember... originally tokens were rewards for playing in the end game, where you didn't gain experience... which is more similar to seeds, than to playing epic quests that give a ton of experience.

 

[mikarddo]

There's no broader implication, Mikarddo. Every change should be examined on its own merits and potential repercussions. Saying that changing one thing might lead to people wanting more changes doesn't make much sense, do you think?

"No man is an island".

It is obvious we simply disagree which is fine. Have a nice day and see you in game

 

[Spoon of Khyber]

Coming back to this post after A LOT of token farming. No doubt Von3 is fast (less than 6min) and the best token farm, but ransack is a problem if you can do a racial in less than the ransack timer. To the people who "like" the token system and think this is whining. I never said there was anything difficult about farming tokens, but when they added Racial past lives another source of hearts, perhaps just for hearts of blood should have been added. Adding them to the heart seed menu would not require any real work by SSG. Personally, I think mikarddo's idea of eliminating hearts for TRs is even better than my idea. I also agree that DDO is wayyyyyy too back loaded and there needs to be some sort of fast catch up system for returning players and new players. A good friend has returned to DDO after 7 years.. I am not sure he will stick around to grind out racial completionist on even one of his toons. I *know* we all did the work and they should too, but I would personally prefer more people playing the game than our current handful of DDO lifers.... myself included in that title.

 

[Phoenicis]

BoB is sub 2 min on capped characters. With the right group Storm the Beaches is only a few seconds longer.

I still maintain just run all the token quests once a life on the trip from 20 to 30 and you will be set. If you must farm, capped chars make mincemeat of those two quests.

 

[Urklore]

The very very old token system should be augmented by allowing heroic and racial true hearts to be purchased with heart seeds. Having to farm tokens while I have over 1200 heart seeds in the bank is infurating. It not as if I am not playing the game, but now I have to run low epic content over and over and over again. THIS IS NOT FUN. And don't even suggest I should pay $15 a pop for hearts, I am already VIP. Being able to use seeds for True hearts of wood and blood should be a VIP perk.

Everytime I get to 20 I am like 'what, I have to do more grinding so I can TR for my +1 to something'. Nine times out of 10 I simply log off of DDO and do something else out of furstration. I really wish as a VIP, they gave us a free heart of wood monthly. I would renew my VIP for an extend time frame!

 

[Anurakh]

BoB is sub 2 min on capped characters. With the right group Storm the Beaches is only a few seconds longer.

I still maintain just run all the token quests once a life on the trip from 20 to 30 and you will be set. If you must farm, capped chars make mincemeat of those two quests.

What if you're not going to 30? I'm doing the dhampir racials in a second toon. Neither this one nor the first one has gone to 30 because they already have all the epics.

Tokens were a system to keep people busy when the endgame was scarce. That's no longer the case.

 

[Phoenicis]

What if you're not going to 30? I'm doing the dhampir racials in a second toon. Neither this one nor the first one has gone to 30 because they already have all the epics.

Tokens were a system to keep people busy when the endgame was scarce. That's no longer the case.

Do you not have any capped characters?

 

[Anurakh]

Do you not have any capped characters?

I have them (and I have accumulated tokens from recent iconic TRs), but farming tokens is boring and pointless. What I'm saying is, it's not as easy as just earning them organically while playing the game, because you're often not getting to 30.

It's really time to change how the system works. It's a relic from, what, 17 years ago? Time to update.

 

[Spoon of Khyber]

What if you're not going to 30? I'm doing the dhampir racials in a second toon. Neither this one nor the first one has gone to 30 because they already have all the epics.

Tokens were a system to keep people busy when the endgame was scarce. That's no longer the case.

Exactly, I am doing racials. There was a time where I would pass all my tokens because I thought I had so many I would never need all of them. Welp... doing racial completionist on two toons ate them before I could finish the second one. I have been playing since 2007 I had a lot of tokens saved up. It is frustrating that people don't seem to want to comprehend this situation outside of their small bubble of experience. Sure, whatever, if you want to fight for a very very old outdated system that does NOTHING to either help or hurt the game, go for it. It is a useless time sink in a game of endless time sinks. Just stop stating the obvious, we know that it's easy to farm tokens and we know that it's fast to farm tokens. Do you really think you are providing "useful" information? No worries, I like trolls. I often feed them, they're cute! But seriously, mikarddo has it exactly right, just get rid of the effin hearts all together.....

 

[Spoon of Khyber]

I have them (and I have accumulated tokens from recent iconic TRs), but farming tokens is boring and pointless. What I'm saying is, it's not as easy as just earning them organically while playing the game, because you're often not getting to 30.

It's really time to change how the system works. It's a relic from, what, 17 years ago? Time to update.

LOOK! This is a thoughful person who, like myself, has done enough racial lives to see some obvious and serious flaws in the token/heart system. Thank you so much! And now back to feed those cute little trolls... they are SO cute!

 

[Ethril]

Agree. While Von3 with a full party is more than enough tokens to TR in about 15min (2 runs, 7-8 minutes per run, ~15 tokens per run), if running solo it's a bit silly to have to go back to run a significant amount of lower level content. People not running 4,5,6 accounts shouldn't be penalized more than they are already.

In particular it discourages people running eveningstar stuff, as those don't provide tokens.

Heck, even the epic quests IN THE TWELVE don't have tokens OF THE TWELVE. It's like they just forgot about this game mechanic at some point, or are just trying to sell more hearts? Either way, heart seeds should be more flexible in their usage. Comms as well.

They were going to get rid of tokens completely and move everything over to commendations. However, there was a large outcry from the player base at the time (it would have taken more time to farm enough commendations than tokens). The compromise was to leave tokens in the game for quests that already gave them, but no new quests would give them out.

Edited: I'd meant to say commendations, not heart seeds.

 

[AustrianDeathMachine]

They were going to get rid of tokens completely and move everything over to heart seeds. However, there was a large outcry from the player base at the time (it would have taken more time to farm enough heart seeds than tokens). The compromise was to leave tokens in the game for quests that already gave them, but no new quests would give them out.

Heart seeds did not exist at that time. Just commendations of valor. It would have taken 100+ level 20 quests to farm enough commendations of valor. The compromise was to leave the tokens as they were.

 

[danzig138]

Both my full completionist managed to do under the current rules. Now working on #3.


Cry harder your tears make me stonger!

And mayhap after everyone on the forums cries hard for you for a hundred years, you'll reach Charlie Brown levels of strength!

 

[Ethril]

But what they proposed was such a poorly thought-out and horrible idea that it received universally negative feedback.

^^^This ^^^

I have normally either been meh, "no fundamental difference" or "I like this change" toward the modifications to the game (except nerfs, nerfs suck). However, even I spoke out against their proposed changes. It would have taken me days to get enough to reincarnate.

 

[Ethril]

Why should it take "something", though?

Why isn't it adequate that progression is justified simply by playing your char and earning XP? What purpose does it serve forcing everyone into a couple specific, outdated, and under level packs?

It may not be a burden you personally mind, but it is still a burden (that others do mind), and one that should have some gameplay justification. Originally it was to encourage play at cap, when 20 was just Epic. Now that justification is no longer relevant, so a new one is needed

^^^ This ^^^

I used to play a (now defunct) game that had a reincarnation mechanic. It took no resources to reincarnate; you hit cap and the option was available to you. I suspect that the justification was it kept people playing the game as there wasn't much to do at cap so you could either start a new character, or keep playing the one you had all of the gear for starting from the beginning.

 

[Bobbryan2]

I think all quests, level 20-29, should drop a token of the 12 in the end reward list as an option. Just like you get 2 heart seeds from 30+.