Are Bows good?

[Teh_Troll]

I still can't get over how bows are the heavy hitters...

Bows should have been faster, then crossbows, with great crossbows being the slowest. In reality reloading a crossbow takes long.

But I guess it’s too late to change that now.

Forget reality, in reality longbows both hit harder and shot faster. "Pull" is not the only thing generating force, you have to account for the length of the bow, the weight of the arrow, etc . . .

Difference was . . . an archer had to train all his life to be proficient and to train hit body to pull 150 pound bow. A Crossbowman could be trained in a few weeks.

 

[Richard]

Bows used to be good before, but then they removed the quivers. Quivers were the extra juice to make bows good. Bow does not have the advantage of inquisitive builds or repeaters with a rune arm. Bows are 2-handed and do not benefit from extra effects in the secondary hand, like inquisitives that can have 2 different repeaters and different effects, and builds with crossbow and rune arms that allow people to benefit from 1st hand weapon effects and 2nd hand weapon effects. But people started complaining about power creep, and SSG removed quivers from the game around 2015. With the removal of the quivers, bows start to get behind until they destroy hunts end and bring an AOE play style to bows, where no one asked for that because bows were very good. After the destruction of hunts end, and many revamps, Inquisitive became like gods with all the power and double shot, and the feats fixed for the builds. After that, everyone loses interest in continuing to play bows. They're trying to fix the inquisitives, but no matter what they do, it's still OP.

 

[Igognito]

One aspect that DDO doesn't cover is range. Bows are effective at longer range too.
If I had to redesign the weapons from start, I would do the following:
Thrown: short range, strength based, high speed, very accurate.
Xbows: medium range, no damage ability but high base damage, slow, accurate.
RXbowd: as above, very high speed with intervals (I think they got this right).
Bows: long, very long range, strength damage, average speed, less accurate (requires a lot of training)
I want to point out that xbows do hit harder than bows in real life too. Even the composite bow of the mongols couldn't compare in armor penetration and damage from the xbows.
But both weapons had different military use, and were not used for 1v1 or close combat.
It was either a hunting tool or a formation weapon.
Fortunately enough, DDO is fantasy and I do like some of their weapon interpretations. They make to give character to different styles etc. bow should be better at longer ranges but that is not a thing in DDO.

 

[l_remmie]

Leveling a character with a bow is an exercise in sadomachism.

A bow at endgame can be fine. Its not the fastest but you can hit hard and stay in the back.

 

[Bjond]

Bows used to be good before, but then they removed the quivers. Quivers were the extra juice to make bows good.

Quivers weren't removed. They're still in game, they've always done v.little stat-wise, and they've worked with more than bows. IMHO, the current "BIS" quiver that adds blunt-type is pretty amazing for all ranged.

inquisitives that can have 2 different repeaters and different effects

I think you've confused the visuals with how INQ works: it's only one xbow (not repeater) that looks like two.

After the destruction of hunts end

Hunt's End wasn't destroyed. It was buffed -- hugely. My ranged gained ~ 1.5M/m, but had to rebuild to take advantage. HE+Sniper locked every single ranged build into 6 ranger; unlocking that gave new builds a chance. There's a LOT more diversity in ranged builds now than there was before the change.

The problem from the bow perspective was that HE+Sniper was all it had.

fix the inquisitives, but no matter what they do, it's still OP.

They're not top DPS and weren't even before the nerf. Last I checked they were about 20% off; very decent, but not top. They've got crazy high utility. You can bolt it onto ANYTHING and end up with something that's both fun to play and a solid contributor.

That's why I level up my casters and ranged as INQ. Saves gear, no farming, and it levels fast. But, that's also why I only level that way. End game raid performance is higher on other builds.

It's also likely why you see soooo many INQ ranged. It's easy to build and you end up with something that works. The downside to that is they're everywhere; feels like half the chars out there are inquisitive.

---

IMHO, it would be very easy to make bows the "default" ranged. A couple small changes to HW would do it:

• Core-1~6 = add 5% funspeed each core
• Core-2 = Can use a small shield in off hand
• Core-3 = 5 charge leap, like Leap of Faith
• T5 Misty Step becomes "Pavise" = activate for RP += Level & gain Deflect Arrows (or maybe 'blocking' status) until you move, 6~12s CD that starts when you move"

None of that changes the power of the tree and it fits historical use, though "small shield" really should be "mantlet or light-tower" -- picked small 'cuz DDO has zero use for a small shield at present.

Bow itself needs adjusting to fix lowbie play: flat boost down low with poor scaling. The IPS change was exactly the wrong kind of buff to achieve bow ubiquity as it adds more scaling, not a higher base. It was the right kind of change if they want to see bow used as at-cap only, like shuriken.

 

[LetsGetDangerous]

I feel some of the power from inquisitives should be taken into feats like precise shot and rapid shot, as it is with bows. That way inquisitives have the same strength, but people wouldn't complain that the tree as a whole is too good. Does this make sense?

 

[Richard]

Quivers weren't removed. They're still in game, they've always done v.little stat-wise, and they've worked with more than bows. IMHO, the current "BIS" quiver that adds blunt-type is pretty amazing for all ranged.

New quivers are not in the game; they don't create a new version of quivers. So the only quivers left are the old ones. That said, they remove them from the game because they don't create new versions.

I think you've confused the visuals with how INQ works: it's only one xbow (not repeater) that looks like two.

Inquisitive play with an X-Bow. Inquisitive benefits from xbow plus rune arms effects. Main hand and secondary hand effects.

Hunt's End wasn't destroyed. It was buffed -- hugely. My ranged gained ~ 1.5M/m, but had to rebuild to take advantage. HE+Sniper locked every single ranged build into 6 ranger; unlocking that gave new builds a chance. There's a LOT more diversity in ranged builds now than there was before the change.

Hunts End was completely obliterated, reduced to oblivion. Your perception that a hunt ends was only effective with sniper shot only is completely wrong. It was useful with other attacks and could cause much more damage than it does now. Please don't tell me it's buff because obviously it's not. The only thing that is nice is that they removed them from Epic Strike, and you can use other Epic Strikes. That's it.

Bow itself needs adjusting to fix lowbie play: flat boost down low with poor scaling. The IPS change was exactly the wrong kind of buff to achieve bow ubiquity as it adds more scaling, not a higher base. It was the right kind of change if they want to see bow used as at-cap only, like shuriken

I agree. Bow is terrible to level up. They need to do something with bows, because AA for sure needs to be revamped. They need to add more battle trance and speed-attack boost to increase diversity.

 

[Vua]

Inquisitive play with an X-Bow. Inquisitive benefits from xbow plus rune arms effects. Main hand and secondary hand effects.

You said Inquisitives can wield, not just 2 different crossbows, but 2 different repeaters with different effects. The statement was wrong on multiple levels.

Bows are 2-handed and do not benefit from extra effects in the secondary hand, like inquisitives that can have 2 different repeaters and different effects, and builds with crossbow and rune arms that allow people to benefit from 1st hand weapon effects and 2nd hand weapon effects.

 

[Vua]

End bosses don't paralyze (although many of the minor ones you meet en route do, colorblind so I can't say what's red or orange) for the boss you hit two buttons: turn on Archer's Focus (to eliminate the stupid 20% penalty which should not apply if the arrow did not pass through anything else on the way) and switch to acid or force arrow.

And BTW (replying to a different post) I don't back up. I circle so any melee who wants to come up and hit the guy standing there rotating to try and face me can do so.

My ranger is the Swiss army knife of DDO. No, I usually don't lead the kill count (but second or third ain't bad) but I can raise you, heal you, find secret doors and disarm traps (with one level of rogue) and throw a Ddoor to get out fast if need be.

Yes, there are some inherent issues with archers as designed by the game developers, but in many cases I think folks don't play them right. Archers don't stand toe to toe with the boss; that is why you brought your paladin. We hang to the rear, find a perch and let loose.

Are there colors you can tell apart? Why not just adjust the color of the bosses so it's easier to tell which is which? I switched orange bosses to green to make it easier.

 

[Br4d]

I still can't get over how bows are the heavy hitters...

Bows should have been faster, then crossbows, with great crossbows being the slowest. In reality reloading a crossbow takes long.

But I guess it’s too late to change that now.

Repeaters, dual xbows, etc. All are ridiculously fast to fire/reload. I don't even know how you reload dual xbows when both hands are occupied.

This is an unforced error on the combat system as a whole. The error has led to melee being buffed through the roof over time to compete and then made OP as well.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

I switched orange bosses to green to make it easier.

Exactly what i do too, lol. 8)

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Repeaters, dual xbows, etc. All are ridiculously fast to fire/reload. I don't even know how you reload dual xbows when both hands are occupied.

This is an unforced error on the combat system as a whole. The error has led to melee being buffed through the roof over time to compete and then made OP as well.

"Magic", apparently.

They can use a rune arm too, y'know.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Exactly what i do too, lol. 8)

Smart. How do you do that?

 

[Bjond]

I don't even know how you reload dual xbows when both hands are occupied

Reality got told "you're not welcome here" when D&D was born and has been sulking ever since.

IMHO, throwers are a nod to the ultra-ridiculous 18/00 STR thrower build back in 2.5e? It was definitely a crazy rule-dodging exploit build that did really high damage.

Similar bit for INQ. There's no historical dual or repeating crossbow to copy. Instead it's lifted from 5e's dual hand-xbow builds; they're fun & popular, but also exploity with zero thought for reality.

I think SSG is trying to give popular PnP *game* builds a place in DDO. I seriously doubt there is any thought whatsoever for simulating real combat of any kind.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Smart. How do you do that?

Options => UI Settings => move slider to "Name color" section, change miniboss color to what you like. 8)

 

[RangerOne]

Red/Green colorblind (I blame Mom). So before the discussion begins (having flashbacks to my teaching days) I do see them, but not like a normal person would. Started honking my horn behind what I thought was a red Datsun containing my girlfriend only to find out, after pulling to the side and seeing more sheetmetal (large areas are easier to detect) I was terrorizing a total stranger.

I had not searched through all the color settings but I might. Might remain a martyr, too. The day is young.

Gotta kill everything anyhow regardless of the color over its head.

 

[norriskwondo]

I still can't get over how bows are the heavy hitters...

Bows should have been faster, then crossbows, with great crossbows being the slowest. In reality reloading a crossbow takes long.

But I guess it’s too late to change that now.

Running pure ranger or dark hunter. YOu have enough feats you can take weapon focus and improved crit in both ranged and a melee. Shooting bow then switching to melee when they get closer is a rather effective strategy that works for me going through ranger class. No running backwards, and get the enemy moving out in the open while you pick one or more off when they're coming to you. Multi shot is usually enough to take out standard level enemy (one) They did buff bows a few months back and they are more effective than they use to be. I've had pretty good luck with them using ranger classes.

 

[Teh_Troll]

I want to point out that xbows do hit harder than bows in real life too. Even the composite bow of the mongols couldn't compare in armor penetration and damage from the xbows.

Not as much as you'd think simply based on the pull weight.

And NEITHER of them could penetrate plate armor.

 

[Igognito]

Not as much as you'd think simply based on the pull weight.

And NEITHER of them could penetrate plate armor.

As the video and I said, different tactical use historically. Both had their uses.
In the rpg point of view, without putting the distance in play you can never make the two distinct.
Thanks for the video it was informative.

 

[Svirfneblin]

Whenever I shot my recurve longbow about 35 pounds pull weight and hit the steel pipe frame of the target it wouldn’t do jack to that steel pipe but it would ruin the arrow in a variety of ways the most fun as when the shaft or the arrow shot backwards towards you a few inches and the pointy tip of the arrow falls to the ground.