Are Bows good?
- Thread starter LouDaCrisp
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LetsGetDangerous
Well-known member
I like this and I like the video.
I agree that with training, bows may have historically been heavier hitting. But me rationalizing (which is probably the dumbest thing you can do in a game with magic) makes me feel that a crossbow could conceivably become the heavier hitter with progression. A bow’s speed is limited by how quickly you can draw and release; getting more proficient just means you can do that faster. But a crossbow takes time to reload, which wouldn’t improve much with skill alone. However, different mechanisms, better energy transfer design or stiffer materials could make it hit harder over time. May even justify INT to damage
Again this is dumb ranting based on preconception.
You're generally correct, but also depends on what kind of metal in the armor and what kind of metal / shape for the arrowhead.
Ideally, xbow should be a simple weapon that doesn't require a huge amount of training compared to the bow. With training, bows should absolutely be a lot faster than xbows. Maybe also something like "xbows deal more damage point blank but take a heavy penalty to accuracy at longer ranges".
And hey, distance is in play in D&D / DDO with Point Blank Shot, it's just that this feat's impact is becoming increasingly negligible with powercreep and other game changes. They should change it to multiplicative bonus.
LetsGetDangerous
Well-known member
Distance is one dimension they really should be considering and it can greatly affect game play. Each style will feel distinct and not as a clone of the other. I like your idea of point bank shot - an elegant integration method.
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Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
Polonium for more devastating effect! 8)
Teh_Troll
Master of Baiting
Bjond
Well-known member
T5 Shiradi = You're always in Point Blank Shot range. It's been gone a looong while.
There's also a game problem with making shorter range do increasingly more damage. It erodes the basic "at range" aspect of the entire style. When you must play within melee distance (eg. FOM raid), why bother playing ranged at all? Play melee, do more damage.
Anti-"style" mechanics is flatly bad design; eg. FOM anti-ranged with everyone in melee range or Threats anti-melee where anyone standing next to each other is burned or skele where you can't unlock trash DR without continuous melee hits. The reason it's bad is because players can't do anything about it. It's becomes a punishment to be endured for picking the "wrong" style.
Br4d
Well-known member
The difference between bows and x-bows is range and reload time with bows generally having a longer effective range and a faster reload time. In DDO missile weapons have no range restrictions inside the common maximum range and so there is no difference between a bow and a x-bow. Also reload times are a joke.
Not just Shiradi, also DWS. But that's the idea - make the "always in pbs range" exclusive to longbows, maybe include some reduced version for shortbows, and make it flat-out unavailable for xbows. Ideally also revert PBS to doing X% more damage rather than +W for more effect (maybe not quite double as in the olden days, but maybe +25~50% so bows pack a punch at range).
That way you solve a number of issues:
- Bows get a distinction from xbows by packing more pubch at distance
- Shiradi is no longer the be-all-end-all destiny for all ranged builds
- Devs will be forced to update other destinies to support ranged properly (why was ranged nerfed out of DC, for example?)
In short, the PBS mechanic is still there and it works mechanically, but it's been designed into irrelevance. Should be a fairly easy fix to bring it back.
I'm not suggesting shorter range should deal more damage. I'm suggesting that xbows are forced to stay closer in range (30 feet, maybe even 15 feet for tiny plinkers like dxbows) to have the same damage multiplier as bows at longer ranges (infinite for longbow, 60~90 for shortbow, probably). That way xbows remain powerful (no major nerf) but the playstyle changes a bit + there is a tradeoff having to invest more into defense rather than staying at longer range.
Bjond
Well-known member
That literally destroys all other ranged builds. It's not just 1+W; PBS unlocks sneak attacks. You're now forcing all ranged to fight *really* close, almost melee distance.
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
...and why play ranged then? Just play melee with more defense and damage output, right?
Could you explain how PBS is related to sneak attack please?
First, 30 feet is not nearly as close as melee as you make it out to be, it's more than 6 times farther away so plenty far just not "other side of the map" far.
Second, this change would finally give some value to the Mechanic tree which increases the pbs range by 5 feet per core.
Lastly, your reaction says that this change would be effective, because it would finally give bows something that xbows and throwers don't have. Right now bows are pretty much in the "same but worse" category.
On a separate note, I'd love a new epic destiny that is designed with bows in mind (or adjust one of the existing ones).
Ranged sneak attacks only activate in the Peanut Butter Sandwich range.
Why? If anything, thrown weapons should be the most affected, because one can hardly throw something farther / better by hand compared to a bow / xbow.
Bjond
Well-known member
Those of us who played before PBS = infinite know exactly how close it is and it's insanely close. Plus, there's no ranged distance meter to tell you when you're in range or out of range. This makes it even worse by forcing you to "get near" just to be sure.
Raiding ranged distance these days varies a lot, but I use infinite range (shooting to the target range limit) in a bunch of raids. If you want to make bows the ONLY ranged worth playing, this is the way to go.
Yes, we agree on that. I know thrown weapons currently are weak (with some exceptions) but that is a different topic.
IMHO thrown weapons should not be able to hit very far. Let's call short range weapons.
Crossbow (based on category) should be a medium ranged weapons.
And bows long ranged weapons.
Also, bows Shouldn't be able to hit on melee range but let's ignore that now.
And crossbows shouldn't reload that easily, but again let's ignore that now.
I can't suggest distances, because the game distances should be relevant with our view perspective. But I could suggest proportions.
Thrown x1
Hand Crossbow x5
Light crossbows x10
Heavy crossbows x12
Great crossbow x15
Shortbow x15
Longbow x20
Past that it should be a graze hit. Or go d&d and put a -x to hit
Or something like that.
Mindos
CHAOTIC EVIL
The little first damage icon is different if you are in sneak attack/point blank shot range.
I've played before infinite PBS was available, and remember it being an acquired skill but sort of second nature when playing ranged after a while. Just move in till you're just right.
That said, back then most main raids took place in pretty small rooms compared to what we have now, so you're kinda right on that point. For example, you'd really have to try to not be in PBS range in something like the VoD.
Thanks, didn't know that!
But got a follow up question to get better understanding - does ranged sneak attack has same range with PBS or is it actually tied to PBS range?
Deepwood Stalker core 5 says "You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range."
Shiradi T5 Feywild Attunement says "You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot range" without mentioning ranged sneak attack.
Do they both grant unlimited range for ranged sneak attack?