CC/IK is optional. DPS is essential. So why play a CASTER in 2026 DDO?

[Aelastiar]

Nope. Casters DPS always lags behind both melee and ranged even in heroics. The big difference is they kill groups of mobs in a single cast and it makes them FEEL like higher DPS. This is why they feel so bad in high level epic/legendary because they can no longer 1 shot/2 shot mobs.
If the enemy has 10k hp and caster does 10k damage in 1 cast with a 6 second cooldown the DPS is 1667 but the mob instantly dies.
If the enemy has 10k hp and a melee does 2k damage per attack and 3 attacks per second the DPS is 6k but the mob takes 1.7 seconds to die.

Casters have damage break points and any monster that surpasses that breakpoint makes a caster feel gimp because of spell cooldown.
In the previous example if the caster does 10k damage and mob has 11k hp it takes a caster 6 seconds to kill a mob as compared to their previous instant kill while the melee's time adds 0.3 seconds to a total of 2 seconds.

This is a huge issue that gets to the crux of the current state of casters.

Look at something like haste boost and how it multiplies melee dps. Casters get what?

 

[Drachmor]

Yes we've measured sorc, cold druid, etc. Our resident long-term cold druid is Raedier, who changed his name to "Cold" when we moved to Moonsea. His burst dps was as high as I've ever seen from a caster. Even after the r7-r10 nerf and the draconic epic strike nerf, he was still uber. But he also relied heavily on the DoT procs which were recently also nerfed (at which time he uninstalled DDO). Cold uninstalled, and Tyrannous, our 20 year completionist sorc nuker, gave up dps and tr'd into a CC/IK build with no dps which he also doesn't play in favor of his non-main repeater Tyrshot.

I don't think casters should have the same DPS as the meta martials. But since dps is the essential and central attacking feature of DDO, I think casters should remain capable of moderately fair and meaningful dps relative to the martial meta.
Otherwise casters will be relegated exclusively to an often unnecessary support role. As Nod pointed out, there are threads/posts expressing something like this everyday. And as Smokewolf and Aelastiar mentioned, the martial builds also have versions of CC/IK, making this pigeonholing of casters even less valuable.

I believe caster dps being too sub-optimal is a genuine sore-spot issue effecting many players. I'm just suggesting that the disparity between caster dps and martial dps be reduced. Nothing more.

Although it’s been said many times before, here you’ve said it very well.

 

[Krishna Devi]

Although it’s been said many times before, here you’ve said it very well.

Thank you, Drachmor. Much appreciated

 

[Rosze]

For high end play, DPS is king.
Kind of sad really.
DDO,
Story - pointless.
Strategy - kill fast.
Player goals - gear to kill faster
Party make up - a bunch of kill fast and 1 healer.
And folks complain when I say this game has almost nothing to do with real D&D.
It is what it is, but it could have been better .... MUCH much better.

There’s story in this game? Since when?

 

[Krishna Devi]

There’s story in this game? Since when?

From DDO beta leading into the 2006 launch and the first couple of years, there was some emphasis on lore and storyline. At least that's how I remember it. Alot was made of the new Eberron world setting by Keith Baker which had won the 2002 Fantasy Setting Search.

But even then it felt to me, a long time DnD pen & paper player since childhood, more like a first person shooter, but with DnD style weapon and spell attacks instead of guns etc. What saved DDO for me was the community and the character design flexibility. As long as I could create a unique compelling character, and had some friends to play with, then I was happy. I also felt that some of the environments were beautifully done.

I felt like that early stage ended with the introduction of reaper; from that time til now, from level 1 to cap, in any setting, whether Forgotten Realms or Eberron, the Feywild or Ravenloft, suddenly there were the same 6 monsters everywhere - and the only explanation was "The dungeon itself wants to kill you". At that point I felt like the last truly compelling DDO storyline ended.

But I still love playing DDO for the same reason I started; some friends to hang out with in a beautifully designed world, and the ability to create unique builds, which I feel is DDO's saving grace.

 

[ZPR]

From DDO beta leading into the 2006 launch and the first couple of years, there was some emphasis on lore and storyline. At least that's how I remember it. Alot was made of the new Eberron world setting by Keith Baker which had won the 2002 Fantasy Setting Search.

But even then it felt to me, a long time DnD pen & paper player since childhood, more like a first person shooter, but with DnD style weapon and spell attacks instead of guns etc. What saved DDO for me was the community and the character design flexibility. As long as I could create a unique compelling character, and had some friends to play with, then I was happy. I also felt that some of the environments were beautifully done.

I felt like that early stage ended with the introduction of reaper; from that time til now, from level 1 to cap, in any setting, whether Forgotten Realms or Eberron, the Feywild or Ravenloft, suddenly there were the same 6 monsters everywhere - and the only explanation was "The dungeon itself wants to kill you". At that point I felt like the last truly compelling DDO storyline ended.

But I still love playing DDO for the same reason I started; some friends to hang out with, and the ability to create unique design builds which I feel is DDO's saving grace.

dont forget the decade + of the story being "oh no the baddies got another page out of the codex!" and that was it. for a decade. the story died nobody cares about the story anymore, it was cool back in the module days, through tower of despair, after, big ooof, got nothing but old content rehashed to epic, and some silly thing with the much hated Elminster that i never bothered to look into, then copies of pen and paper campaigns (cool i like those, but are not part of the stormreach story.)

just get out there and KILL KILL KILL!

but the casters and the tanks cant kill
oooof. big sad.

 

[Krishna Devi]

As long as they give me some nice caster dps options, I'll keep playing lol.

Beautiful races and beautiful environments are also compelling for me.

 

[torkz]

Another day, another caster thread. Yesterday was a ranged thread. What will tomorrow bring?

The dmg buffs this game NEEDS is to tanks. Of the few MMO's I've played, why do tanks in DDO do absolutely no dmg? Throw us tank players a bone, SSG. Let us solo quests on reaper 1 if we need/have to.

Please...this is the silliest take I've seen in a while. There is no comparison between the plight of casters and tanks.

Any decent player (and I suspect Nod is one, so he is just throwing up a strawman for giggles) can take any tank, swap an enhancement or two...maybe a destiny...and solo R1 quests just fine. This costs a little plat (so really, no cost) but the 10 minutes it takes to do it. Meanwhile, the tank has a solid role in high reaper raids. I solo R1 quest on a low life tank with no issues...Quick Cutter and done. It goes a little slower, but perfectly do-able. And I am not a great melee player.

And if you want your fighter/paladin/barbarian class to be DPS in reaper raids, you can build for that as well. Heck, you can even do this on the fly if you have lots of LR hearts around. (Yes, melee is a challenge in the highest level of push raids, but that is a different thread.)

Doesn't matter how you build a caster, it isn't going to do meaningful DPS in high reaper or any reaper raids. This doesn't mean casters have no utility in raids, but it better be a raid that requires CC/IK or it will just mean longer completion times for everyone.

 

[Lopnel]

Casters play a major role in some raids and are niche play style. Even arcane casters can provide potent healing.
Too hot to handle is a prime example of how caster builds provide the party with a way to get the raid done without being consumed by forged wraith mobs by using undead to death, sunburst, globe of dancing and some ranged dps.
Casters deserve better dps in reaper and now that the devs successfully capped spells, the penalty in reapers should be the same penalty as physical builds.

 

[Nod]

Please...this is the silliest take I've seen in a while. There is no comparison between the plight of casters and tanks.

Any decent player (and I suspect Nod is one, so he is just throwing up a strawman for giggles) can take any tank, swap an enhancement or two...maybe a destiny...and solo R1 quests just fine. This costs a little plat (so really, no cost) but the 10 minutes it takes to do it. Meanwhile, the tank has a solid role in high reaper raids. I solo R1 quest on a low life tank with no issues...Quick Cutter and done. It goes a little slower, but perfectly do-able. And I am not a great melee player.

And if you want your fighter/paladin/barbarian class to be DPS in reaper raids, you can build for that as well. Heck, you can even do this on the fly if you have lots of LR hearts around. (Yes, melee is a challenge in the highest level of push raids, but that is a different thread.)

Doesn't matter how you build a caster, it isn't going to do meaningful DPS in high reaper or any reaper raids. This doesn't mean casters have no utility in raids, but it better be a raid that requires CC/IK or it will just mean longer completion times for everyone.

Yes, it was a troll indeed.

Just annoyed w/ the constant thread spam of buff this, nerf this, buff xyz.

I will say, tanks could use more dmg tho , sincerely, a tank player

 

[torkz]

Yes, it was a troll indeed.

Just annoyed w/ the constant thread spam of buff this, nerf this, buff xyz.

I will say, tanks could use more dmg tho , sincerely, a tank player

Fair. I'm tired of them as well.

But I sure hope someday I can play a DPS caster in reaper raids without having to beg forgiveness from my fellow players. In the meantime, I probably will continue to play other classes, since I'm addicted to the game. But my play time continues to dwindle as my true passion is denied.

And I agree tanks should have some higher DPS options. It wouldn't kill SSG to throw in an ability that does both meaningful DPS and increases threat. It doesn't need to be top tier DPS, but something mid would not be game breaking.

 

[Krishna Devi]

I sure hope someday I can play a DPS caster in reaper raids without having to beg forgiveness from my fellow players. In the meantime, I probably will continue to play other classes, since I'm addicted to the game. But my play time continues to dwindle as my true passion is denied.

Thank you, Torkz. Nice post

I've quit a couple times since the r7-r10 caster nerf, for a few month each time. But I keep coming back hoping that caster dps will find a balanced place in the overall endgame. Currently I'm at 30% of the martial meta dps on my warlock (20% in r10). I'd be more than satisfied if I could land in the 50%-70% dps range of the martial meta.

I think that's a fair place considering I get the extra CC abilities that most martials don't have. I can't fit a functional Instakill DC on my build since Ive fully optimized for Eldritch Blast dps, but that's fine with me also. This thread is just a call for a more balanced approach to caster dps in general - not that casters should become the new meta.

Thank you again for your post

 

[Smokewolf]

Yes we've measured sorc, cold druid, etc. Our resident long-term cold druid is Raedier, who changed his name to "Cold" when we moved to Moonsea. His burst dps was as high as I've ever seen from a caster. Even after the r7-r10 nerf and the draconic epic strike nerf, he was still uber. But he also relied heavily on the DoT procs which were recently also nerfed (at which time he uninstalled DDO). Cold uninstalled, and Tyrannous, our 20 year completionist sorc nuker, gave up dps and tr'd into a CC/IK build with no dps which he also doesn't play in favor of his non-main repeater Tyrshot.

I don't think casters should have the same DPS as the meta martials. But since dps is the essential and central attacking feature of DDO, I think casters should remain capable of moderately fair and meaningful dps relative to the martial meta.
Otherwise casters will be relegated exclusively to an often unnecessary support role. As Nod pointed out, there are threads/posts expressing something like this everyday. And as Smokewolf and Aelastiar mentioned, the martial builds also have versions of CC/IK, making this pigeonholing of casters even less valuable.

I believe caster dps being too sub-optimal is a genuine sore-spot issue effecting many players. I'm just suggesting that the disparity between caster dps and martial dps be reduced. Nothing more.

I agree with everything you've said except "I don't think casters should have the same DPS as the meta martials."

Casters should have extremely high burst and AoE damage but such that's its not practically sustainable. Thus enforcing the idea that Casters need to pick and choose their moments to contribute, rather than spam the most powerful spells to infinium. That being said, there's nothing wrong with being able to hold the line with lesser spells until that moment is needed. After all, DnD is about group play and everyone being able to fulfill a meaningful role... Something that our Dev's have forgotten / ignored in favor of short-term monetization.

 

[Krishna Devi]

I agree with everything you've said except "I don't think casters should have the same DPS as the meta martials."

Casters should have extremely high burst and AoE damage but such that's its not practically sustainable. Thus enforcing the idea that Casters need to pick and choose their moments to contribute, rather than spam the most powerful spells to infinium. That being said, there's nothing wrong with being able to hold the line with lesser spells until that moment is needed. After all, DnD is about group play and everyone being able to fulfill a meaningful role... Something that our Dev's have forgotten / ignored in favor of short-term monetization.

Thank you, Smokewolf,

I agree and appreciate this post & your previous posts on this topic of caster dps as well.

I'm happy to add this nuance - that casters who optimize dps should be able to land perhaps around 50%-70% of the meta martial SUSTAINED dps, but even stronger BURST dps that's NOT sustainable.

Thank you again.

 

[Fizzix]

its been what 15 updates since they borked casters?

 

[Smokewolf]

its been what 15 updates since they borked casters?

That long ! Geez

 

[LunaCee]

I'm happy to add this nuance - that casters who optimize dps should be able to land perhaps around 50%-70% of the meta martial SUSTAINED dps, but even stronger BURST dps that's NOT sustainable.

What could somewhat make that possible would be if they rework echoes of power to instead be a minimum limit you cannot be reduced below. So that if you take Magus or Exalted Angel you would functionally always have at minimum 30 mana to spend. So as long as a spell and active meta-magic applied do not cost more than 30 it can be cast until the end of time.

Sure it would "kill" mana pot sales, but lets be honest here. With how SLA are and having access to spell storing rings, torc, evergreen PA mantle and more? Spell points are close to infinite anyways. This just makes it reliable that 4th level and under spells for epic casters are endless.

 

[Fizzix]

That long ! Geez

well around 2021 is when it started to get pants on head with casters. A well played alchemist was top tier DPS and it took a lot more skill than any sort of ranged toon to do it.

There were several successive nerfs to casters, simultaneously they gave more effective CC, IKs, short cooldown AoE DPS at like level 3 or 4, and healing to melee classes. Because reasons.

 

[Drachmor]

I agree with everything you've said except "I don't think casters should have the same DPS as the meta martials."

Casters should have extremely high burst and AoE damage but such that's its not practically sustainable. Thus enforcing the idea that Casters need to pick and choose their moments to contribute, rather than spam the most powerful spells to infinium. That being said, there's nothing wrong with being able to hold the line with lesser spells until that moment is needed. After all, DnD is about group play and everyone being able to fulfill a meaningful role... Something that our Dev's have forgotten / ignored in favor of short-term monetization.

Good point. I used to play fire sorc, and it made sense to me that they could detonate trash like no one else at times and lead in kill count. And do o-k boss damage, at the expense of like a third of my SP pool.

 

[Fizzix]

Thank you, Smokewolf,

I agree and appreciate this post & your previous posts on this topic of caster dps as well.

I'm happy to add this nuance - that casters who optimize dps should be able to land perhaps around 50%-70% of the meta martial SUSTAINED dps, but even stronger BURST dps that's NOT sustainable.

Thank you again.

melee should sustained DPS should be 70% of caster burst DPS...