Change to Dungeon Alert

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
I am completely baffled by the ironi of hearing that from someone whos entire argument rests on the blatantly false premise that no one ever kills mobs to reduce or prevent DA. It's a complete fabrication, I know it, you know it and everyone reading this knows it.
Irony
I kill every mob I come across, guess what, da doesn't vanish.
The only fabrication here is that you seem to think that this system does something it doesn't.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Irony
I kill every mob I come across, guess what, da doesn't vanish.
The only fabrication here is that you seem to think that this system does something it doesn't.

If you don't kill every mob you come across, guess what, da will increase. KIlling every mob makes DA lower than it would have been otherwise, even if it sometimes still triggers.

I don't understand how you can possibly believe that DA is not an incentive to kill monsters, care to elaborate? Do you base it on a notion that all players always kill all monsters they come across?

I can tell you from personal experience that I, everyone in my guild and hundreds of players in pugs have stopped to kill mobs to reduce DA, mobs that otherwise would have been left alive. So your premise that DA does not make players kill monsters is false, and I don't see how you have an argument at all without it.
 

popejubal

Avatar of Jell-O
If you don't kill every mob you come across, guess what, da will increase. KIlling every mob makes DA lower than it would have been otherwise, even if it sometimes still triggers.

I don't understand how you can possibly believe that DA is not an incentive to kill monsters, care to elaborate? Do you base it on a notion that all players always kill all monsters they come across?

I can tell you from personal experience that I, everyone in my guild and hundreds of players in pugs have stopped to kill mobs to reduce DA, mobs that otherwise would have been left alive. So your premise that DA does not make players kill monsters is false, and I don't see how you have an argument at all without it.
There are a fair number of situations where killing every mob you can physically reach (including with ranged attacks) does not eliminate Dungeon Alert.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have stopped to kill mobs to reduce DA and that DA hasn't gone away fully even though I have killed EVERY mob I encountered.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
There are a fair number of situations where killing every mob you can physically reach (including with ranged attacks) does not eliminate Dungeon Alert.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have stopped to kill mobs to reduce DA and that DA hasn't gone away fully even though I have killed EVERY mob I encountered.
Thank you for agreeing with me. That the narrative "DA does not make players kill monster " was crazy.
 

popejubal

Avatar of Jell-O
Thank you for agreeing with me. That the narrative "DA does not make players kill monster " was crazy.
It's especially crazy since that's not the "narrative" that is being put forth. The actual arguments are different but you have decided to go off on a tangent. They're saying that the grass is green while you're berating them for not saying that the sky is blue.
 

Lagin

Well-known member
How does dungeon alert cause more lag?
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Shear-buckler

Well-known member
It's especially crazy since that's not the "narrative" that is being put forth. The actual arguments are different but you have decided to go off on a tangent. They're saying that the grass is green while you're berating them for not saying that the sky is blue.

No that is literally the narrative. One guy even went as far as to say that DA was implemented only to sell more stuff from the store.
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
The (unfalsified) 'narrative' continues to be that it would be better for the Devs to make changes which reduce lag rather than changes which punish players.

Could punishing players cause them to modify their behavior sufficiently to result in a net reduction in lag? Anything is possible but, given that it evidently isn't working after FOURTEEN YEARS, I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
The (unfalsified) 'narrative' continues to be that it would be better for the Devs to make changes which reduce lag rather than changes which punish players.

Could punishing players cause them to modify their behavior sufficiently to result in a net reduction in lag? Anything is possible but, given that it evidently isn't working after FOURTEEN YEARS, I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

What you fail to see is that it IS working. Instances grinding to a complete halt from players skipping too many monsters was commonplace before DA, and with the player powercreep and faster speeds today it would be even more frequent.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
There are a fair number of situations where killing every mob you can physically reach (including with ranged attacks) does not eliminate Dungeon Alert.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have stopped to kill mobs to reduce DA and that DA hasn't gone away fully even though I have killed EVERY mob I encountered.
Yeah, I encounter this quite often. The alert will just get stuck, so even though I don't zerg and typically try to kill everything in a dungeon the motivation behind that behavior never has been and never will be to get rid of da, simply because more often than not of late it won't even go away. Typically i run on elite or reaper, so having the mobs buffed up more due to a system that doesn't seem to work correctly (at least I am assuming so, unless it's intended to fire off and stay there), while debuffing me, well, it's not fun.

The (unfalsified) 'narrative' continues to be that it would be better for the Devs to make changes which reduce lag rather than changes which punish players.

Could punishing players cause them to modify their behavior sufficiently to result in a net reduction in lag? Anything is possible but, given that it evidently isn't working after FOURTEEN YEARS, I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.
I completely agree with you on this.

There's not really any point in me debating with the other individual, I can talk to walls in my own house if I wish to.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Literally the entire point of this thread is that they are increasing the penalties caused by Dungeon Alert because it ISN'T working.

That they have to turn it up a level to keep up with power creep does not mean that it currently have no effect.

The current implementation has been a HUGE net reduction in lag for 14 years. The narrative that it has no effect on players behavior or lag is absurd.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
Literally the entire point of this thread is that they are increasing the penalties caused by Dungeon Alert because it ISN'T working.
I imagine the idea is to try and get people to slow down in dungeons, if one of the devs could chime in on what the specific goal is then the debate could switch to trying to find some methods which might achieve what ever their goal is as a whole.
If it's something as simple as kill mobs, then the easiest way to increase that mentality would be to give each creature an xp amount on kill, in addition to maybe a loot drop or two, or materials for crafting, or some such.
 

Blunt Hackett

Well-known member
I imagine the idea is to try and get people to slow down in dungeons, if one of the devs could chime in on what the specific goal is then the debate could switch to trying to find some methods which might achieve what ever their goal is as a whole.
If it's something as simple as kill mobs, then the easiest way to increase that mentality would be to give each creature an xp amount on kill, in addition to maybe a loot drop or two, or materials for crafting, or some such.
Every time I've seen this issue come up, I think how ironic it is that they created an xp system contrary to D&D rules and most RPGs. If you got xp for every kill, the only times this would have been an issue would be when people are favor farming over-level or during insta-DA like in the Black Loch zombie room. I imagine such an overhaul is out of the question though, even if it had been brought up before the game went f2p ages ago.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
Every time I've seen this issue come up, I think how ironic it is that they created an xp system contrary to D&D rules and most RPGs. If you got xp for every kill, the only times this would have been an issue would be when people are favor farming over-level or during insta-DA like in the Black Loch zombie room. I imagine such an overhaul is out of the question though, even if it had been brought up before the game went f2p ages ago.
It has been, multiple times. But I doubt it will be done. Pretty sure ddo might be a sinking ship, the question is only how long will we continue to enjoy it. . .or slog through it until the journey is over.
 

Buddha5440

Trainer of those who beat dead horses
Da doesn't make people kill monsters, never has. If you really believe that it absolutely does that, well. . .I have some beach front property in Arizona for sale. It most certainly doesn't prevent pathing lag, in fact, it doesn't do anything for pathing what so ever. It quite literally doesn't change a thing when it comes to the pathing of creatures.
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There are ways to 'magically' fix pathing issues. 1) change how creatures are spawned (use a spawn in system instead of having things spawn all at once when entering a dungeon or area, this can be done with triggers, way point spawning, or even based on a timer. This does partially occur in some instances at certain points in some dungeons - meaning that there is a trigger or action which causes creatures to spawn in.) 2) disengage when there is no line of sight of the character for over five sec and return home (this would require some serious updating of the coding and game engine itself, as it appears that mobs can see through walls/floors/ceilings/ and so on) 3) Fix mesh issues and ai so that creatures can easily move around instead of letting them have x-ray vision through floors and walls and ceilings - and waling into walls like a broken Roomba (ray casting is pretty good for that though I doubt the engine being used has anything that nice in it, unreal and unity do though). 4) fix spawn points for monsters (some still appear in walls and floors and stay aggroed no matter what, and you can't kill them)
So, there is the 'magical' solution. It would take time, effort, and know how to achieve. But, this game has been around for over a decade and a half, so all that could have already been done over the years, but wasn't.
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The tactics I have seen displayed by SSG over the years is the same one used by other unsuccessful game developers in the past, intentionally make the game worse or break it, just so that people can buy a solution in the store to play it normally. (xp potions, sp tomes, bonus stat tomes, etc, etc, etc.) Though I guess success could be measured in profitability rather than player count and player enjoyment. DDO by all appearances has been intentionally designed to require people to spend money to play it as one would a normal game.
Of course, a company needs to make money to operate and improve, there is no dispute about that being a fact. But when the inherent systems used to make this money may be the ones causing issues with in a game, well, that's where I typically have an issue. The da alert punishes certain play styles, certain play styles which seem to have minimal issues in other mmos.
There are several supporting videos and pieces out there that explain the monetization model used by SSG which are easier to understand rather than putting up a whole business essay here, I'll post one or two below by an influencer, pretty sure that's what people are called now days who do these things.
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How 'Pay To Win' ruins the gameplay in MMO's - [MMOPINION]
Free to Play VS Monthly Sub, which is better? - [MMOPINION]
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Hopefully I didn't go off on too much of a tangent.
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CBDunk will have to weigh in with their answers of course, but this was my take on things.
#2 is, I think, the best idea. I always find it irritating when mobs in the next room, behind a closed door; are targeting me and shooting arrows into the wall that I am standing on the other side of.

I'm also not a fan of how they can arc their shots while can simply shoot in a straight line or how we can be targeted with things like Magic Missle by a mob that is not in line of sight.

Again, I think it comes down to the Aggro system. It was much better before the 'Stealth Nerf' a while back. Before that, if you killed a mob while no others were visible, they seemed to go into active searching mode around where the other mob was killed. Now they instantly know where you are (even if they can't see you and you can't se them) and never lose sight of you (even when they can't see you).
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
It seems likely that the method of eliminating pathing lag which would require the least development work would be to teleport all active monsters to the players (via the same logic already used by Orthons, Blink Dogs, and others) when the 'Green' or 'Yellow' Dungeon Alert levels would otherwise be reached (or after 'X' seconds of following, or whatever). If they keep running, the monsters keep teleporting to them. Thus, there are never any long paths to process and consequently no pathing lag.

Would this be perfect and wonderful in all ways? Nothing is. However, it would certainly be a vast improvement over the current Dungeon Alert system... changing the game to PREVENT the lag inducing situation rather than punishing players for encountering this thing the Devs built into the game... and in many cases made unavoidable.

Don't like that for some reason? Ok, instead have the monsters teleport to the end room and go inactive. Would require more effort, but again completely prevents the lag.

Don't like that one either? Ok, whenever monster pathing is approaching a potentially lag inducing level just remove the monster (unless it is a boss)... and make every remaining monster in the dungeon stronger.

Et cetera. There are COUNTLESS ways this issue could be fixed by rewriting the code of the game. That makes VASTLY more sense than the Dungeon Alert system which has continually failed 'fix' it by rewriting human behavior... via rewriting the code of the game.
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
The only problem that needs fixing is monsters need to stop pathing when it is obvious it cant catch up to the player. DA is just a smokescreen.
 

Buddha5440

Trainer of those who beat dead horses
Hmmm...almost 12 Hrs without a comment. Is it possible that this thread that was, IMHO, done after the first few pages is finally over?
 
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