clunkiest = most powerful play style is bad for the game's health

[Concavenator]

seen so many new players asking or be recommended to repeaters or inqu, same thing on r10 ends with all the throw monks but lets face it ppl play these builds because they are powerful not because they r smooth/fun to play.

range is by far the clunkiest most antiquated play style in ddo, every time i see someone reviewing ddo on youtube i get scared when they hover over ranger classes in char creation.

range need more attack speed(but less dps), bigger targeting arc, less iqs more aoe...... unless ssg can smooth out the player experience STOP funneling everyone in to this tab targeting nightmare play style from the early 2000s

 

[GrizzlyOso]

On the one hand I agree with everything you’re saying. Ranged is terrible to play.

On the other hand, some people like it, have always like it even before it became the style du jour, and I’m pretty sure will always like it.

While I don’t understand it at all, stop gatekeeping what people want to play.

 

[Concavenator]

top gatekeeping what people want to play.

im only talking about the ppl getting meta funneled into the gate, if they just love range style im by no mean trying to keep them from playing it

 

[Underflow]

I agree. More efforts should be spent now to make other types of combat viable, rather than nerfing Ranged.

With the inquisitive nerfs, things seem more or less fine? Inq feels about at par with what it should be, Bows and GCB could both be improved by giving them 50% ability mod from PBS (And require being in pbs range) and another 50% from IPS (Which currently bow only has). Give the Mechanic tree another 50% ability mod at 12 and another 50% and +3 19-20 multi at 20 and it'll almost be worth using.

Melee is currently dominated by Vistani and needs across the board improvements for their trees/feats, while Vistani needs to be dialed back. It's only seen as not 'terrible' right now because everyone just runs kukri vistani and somehow that's perfectly fine. Active attacks and melee strikes suck, to the point that the only viable aoe strike (Quick Cutter) remains best in slot despite being (understandably) nerfed.

Casters are in hell and they exist in a twilight zone where they're incredibly powerful while levelling but are treated incredibly poorly by epic levels. I personally value Spell Power at about 4-5x less valuable than Melee Power, yet somehow trees give out the same spell power from cores as they give melee/ranged power, require more random AP tax to get spell power, and have more stupid restrictions. Whereas physical DPS get exponentially better through melee/ranged power plus weapon enhancement + stats, casters only scale through spellpower, which is linear. There's no spell crit in EDs, very little spell crit in feats, and while the crit damage is cute, it just doesn't come into play properly. Maximum Caster Level needs to be abolished, and then spell power needs to be looked at and balanced around that, because quite literally we're in a linear wizards, quadratic warriors situation.

 

[adamkatt]

I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.

 

[mikarddo]

I disagree with the OP.

For me ranged feels much better and smoother to play than melee.

Mind, I have a near full competionist SDK barb with 6700 hp atm that does pretty well as melee dps so while far from expert I do have some ability as a melee - it just feels worse than ranged to me.

Unlike the OP though I realise thats its a matter of personal preference rather than the game being wrong.

 

[Bjond]

For me ranged feels much better and smoother to play than melee

It depends on which style you play. Shuri/thrower is smooth and responsive. I love Shuri, it feels great. INQ feels pretty good (other than NHB, which is really bad), but it's not quite as nice as Shuri.

Then there's the "other" ranged. Repeater is f/ugly. Every .. button .. ... .... takes about 3s .. .. .. .. before ... .. .. it ... .. ... . fires. The DPS is exceptional, but it's the least fun by a wide margin.

I think the devs have forgotten that there are two types of immersion: conceptual (as in dual xbows make no sense) and combat-flow, ie. "hey man, I'm in the zone here! don't bother me with concept sensibilities!"

When something takes more than 1/10th of a second between action and effect, people notice. A lot more than that and it jars them loose and they get frustrated. Is it lag? Is the game just broken? No ... it .. is .. .. .. just .. .. the .. .. .. reload .. .. ... ani .. .. mation.

As long as the game responds immediately to input, people will be happy about the feel. None of the styles actually need high attack rates to feel good. They do need to be instantly responsive to player input. I don't mean press button = 5s animation starts and when it's done something happens. I mean press button and within 1/10th of a second the button's effect happens. Play the animation during the GCD where it belongs.

 

[Ungermax]

seen so many new players asking or be recommended to repeaters or inqu, same thing on r10 ends with all the throw monks but lets face it ppl play these builds because they are powerful not because they r smooth/fun to play.

Since when did you speak for everyone?

No deadly weapons for you, good sir.

Arty 24/7 since before it was cool. Its fun, i like the flavor as its an eberron specific class. I play it because its fun. It just happens to be the best class in the game.

 

[mikarddo]

It depends on which style you play. Shuri/thrower is smooth and responsive. I love Shuri, it feels great. INQ feels pretty good (other than NHB, which is really bad), but it's not quite as nice as Shuri.

Then there's the "other" ranged. Repeater is f/ugly. Every .. button .. ... .... takes about 3s .. .. .. .. before ... .. .. it ... .. ... . fires. The DPS is exceptional, but it's the least fun by a wide margin.

I think the devs have forgotten that there are two types of immersion: conceptual (as in dual xbows make no sense) and combat-flow, ie. "hey man, I'm in the zone here! don't bother me with concept sensibilities!"

When something takes more than 1/10th of a second between action and effect, people notice. A lot more than that and it jars them loose and they get frustrated. Is it lag? Is the game just broken? No ... it .. is .. .. .. just .. .. the .. .. .. reload .. .. ... ani .. .. mation.

As long as the game responds immediately to input, people will be happy about the feel. None of the styles actually need high attack rates to feel good. They do need to be instantly responsive to player input. I don't mean press button = 5s animation starts and when it's done something happens. I mean press button and within 1/10th of a second the button's effect happens. Play the animation during the GCD where it belongs.

Some people want to "play the piano" really fast pressing many keys every second - each key press mattering less.

Others want to press fewer keys which each key press mattering more.

I find that DDO has been pushed too far towards the former - where every build seems to be pressing far too many keys far too often each of them mattering little. That is my personal opinion - not something I want to push on others though.

 

[Bjond]

I find that DDO has been pushed too far towards the former - where every build seems to be pressing far too many keys far too often each of them mattering little. That is my personal opinion - not something I want to push on others though.

YES! VKF is the prime example of button-bloat. Why do you press those buttons? No reason other than to keep a buff running. That's it.

Let's contrast that with the most visceral action combat game I've played: Tera. Press a Tera button and something BIG happens RIGHT AWAY. You're always firing for effect. It felt incredible -- really drew you into combat. 'Course, the overall rate was high with zero auto attacks, too. Took me 10m to "warm up" on a char before grouping and then another 45m to wind down after because it was so arcade hyper.

I do NOT desire that level of hyper in DDO. The point is each button DID SOMETHING you could feel. DDO's buttons are mostly weak nonsense you press because it keeps de/buffs running. SDK Chains are the best for solid impactful feel. WWA is pretty good. OLD NHB/EF was nice, new is horrible.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

No ... it .. is .. .. .. just .. .. the .. .. .. reload .. .. ... ani .. .. mation.

I. really.. missed... laugh.... emoticon.....

 

[EinarMal]

I agree on repeater, might be good at cap in thoery, painful to level and play due to super clunky animation. I used to enjoy it a lot more.

I would rather have some 50-75% doubleshot scalar and more responsive shooting, but that is my personal preference. I would prefer 10% less DPS and more responsive shooting.

 

[Qrvar]

I agree. More efforts should be spent now to make other types of combat viable, rather than nerfing Ranged.

Can't speak for the OP, but my take on his post is that ranged needs to be fixed first, and then buffed / nerfed later as needed.

Ranged has two major problems: mechanical and design. Not gonna repeat, but many people above have spoken to the mechanical issue - delays, slow reload times, missing projectiles etc.

Design issue is that back in the day, ranged was a fast-er playstyle focused around rate of fire and procs off that rate of fire. As of today, most of the rate of fire is gone with the manyshot and doubleshot changes, but the proc-based design is still dominant, especially in the epics. This design conflict is another thing that makes ranged somewhat unsatisfying to play.

Then you also have a slew of minor issues like Ranged being the poster boy for ranged gameplay but in reality having outdated enhancement trees and at best a very narrow niche.

YES! VKF is the prime example of button-bloat. Why do you press those buttons? No reason other than to keep a buff running. That's it.

100% agree - short term buffs on short cooldowns need to die in a fire. If it's a 10 second buff on a 10 second cooldown, why not make it a passive? And just in general, pressing a buff button should feel powerful, both visually and gameplay-wise, whereas even epic moments don't always feel that way, not to say anything about most heroic buffs.

 

[Honkin]

I agree. More efforts should be spent now to make other types of combat viable, rather than nerfing Ranged.

With the inquisitive nerfs, things seem more or less fine? Inq feels about at par with what it should be, Bows and GCB could both be improved by giving them 50% ability mod from PBS (And require being in pbs range) and another 50% from IPS (Which currently bow only has). Give the Mechanic tree another 50% ability mod at 12 and another 50% and +3 19-20 multi at 20 and it'll almost be worth using.

Melee is currently dominated by Vistani and needs across the board improvements for their trees/feats, while Vistani needs to be dialed back. It's only seen as not 'terrible' right now because everyone just runs kukri vistani and somehow that's perfectly fine. Active attacks and melee strikes suck, to the point that the only viable aoe strike (Quick Cutter) remains best in slot despite being (understandably) nerfed.

Casters are in hell and they exist in a twilight zone where they're incredibly powerful while levelling but are treated incredibly poorly by epic levels. I personally value Spell Power at about 4-5x less valuable than Melee Power, yet somehow trees give out the same spell power from cores as they give melee/ranged power, require more random AP tax to get spell power, and have more stupid restrictions. Whereas physical DPS get exponentially better through melee/ranged power plus weapon enhancement + stats, casters only scale through spellpower, which is linear. There's no spell crit in EDs, very little spell crit in feats, and while the crit damage is cute, it just doesn't come into play properly. Maximum Caster Level needs to be abolished, and then spell power needs to be looked at and balanced around that, because quite literally we're in a linear wizards, quadratic warriors situation.

I wish someone would print this post and hang it in the SSG office. How many times does it need to be said before the feedback is heard?

 

[Baahb3]

I agree on repeater, might be good at cap in thoery, painful to level and play due to super clunky animation. I used to enjoy it a lot more.

I would rather have some 50-75% doubleshot scalar and more responsive shooting, but that is my personal preference. I would prefer 10% less DPS and more responsive shooting.

I was playing repeaters since they came out. With the animation changes I had to give it up. After so many years, the rhythm, flow, muscle memory all changed, and not for the better. It became not-fun. I realize it is a good damage build right now but they sucked all the fun out of it because of the so accurately stated slow and clunky animations.

I am still struggling to find a ranged build I like. Throwers are fine at cap, absolutely horrid to level. Bows are slower than slow leveling and don't get me started on the dumb looking run pose with a bow in hand.

I am playing through a GXB life and may settle on that. But the Line up and Sit Down hitch after the shot is pissing me off. With the old leg shot, you did not have it. Why add the hitch at the end with a worse version of the ablity?

 

[droid327]

100% agree - short term buffs on short cooldowns need to die in a fire. If it's a 10 second buff on a 10 second cooldown, why not make it a passive?

Buff management overall is a huge piece of low hanging fruit for a QOL upgrade

The process of buffing at quest start is burdensome, especially for group buffers. Having a way to do it all with one button push would be huge and save a lot of hotbar space. It'd also add value back to minor buffs that just aren't worth the individual button push and taking up room

And recasting buffs manually is pointless. That kind of micro management shouldn't be a skill players are tested on. The cost per minute should be the trade-off for "short term" buffs, especially charge based ones. All pure buffs (ie not ones tied to an attack) should be able to just toggle on and have it automatically refresh itself and incur the cost, or disable itself if you can't afford it

 

[Qrvar]

Buff management overall is a huge piece of low hanging fruit for a QOL upgrade

The process of buffing at quest start is burdensome, especially for group buffers. Having a way to do it all with one button push would be huge and save a lot of hotbar space. It'd also add value back to minor buffs that just aren't worth the individual button push and taking up room

And recasting buffs manually is pointless. That kind of micro management shouldn't be a skill players are tested on. The cost per minute should be the trade-off for "short term" buffs, especially charge based ones. All pure buffs (ie not ones tied to an attack) should be able to just toggle on and have it automatically refresh itself and incur the cost, or disable itself if you can't afford it

Also a prime candidate for macros, though iirc that's a grey area and anyway it'd save button presses but not time.

But I'm not so concerned about start of quest buffs as I am about trances and other "press every 30 seconds to get buff for 30 seconds" style abilities.

 

[The Narc2]

I was playing repeaters since they came out. With the animation changes I had to give it up. After so many years, the rhythm, flow, muscle memory all changed, and not for the better. It became not-fun. I realize it is a good damage build right now but they sucked all the fun out of it because of the so accurately stated slow and clunky animations.

I am still struggling to find a ranged build I like. Throwers are fine at cap, absolutely horrid to level. Bows are slower than slow leveling and don't get me started on the dumb looking run pose with a bow in hand.

I am playing through a GXB life and may settle on that. But the Line up and Sit Down hitch after the shot is pissing me off. With the old leg shot, you did not have it. Why add the hitch at the end with a worse version of the ablity?

I apologize for what has happened to repeaters in heroics.

The previous permadeath guild i was in had a subset of players in the inner circle of the game and they were all butt hurt that i was superior to them so they spoke within the inner circle and repeater buffs came and still I was superior, they keep trying after a dozen or so nerfs to stop the performance of my favourite longtime build. I mean yes it can no longer stomp R6 on a first life toon but it still handles R4 with ease.

I am assuming in all their unforeseen rage about not being top dogs they didn't realize how their little suck attack has pushed so many players away from the game or at the very least into our new permadeath community.

Logging into DDO today to purchase a ”you have won DDO button”


quoting Charlie Sheen “Winning!!!!”

roflmao

 

[Concavenator]

For me ranged feels much better and smoother to play than melee.

Unlike the OP though I realise thats its a matter of personal preference rather than the game being wrong.

inqu and xbox skills are less responsive than melee skills or spells is not a matter of personal preference is a fact due to the attack speed/animation.

tab targeting being more antiquated than action combat is a fact not a matter of personal preference.

range is the only play style that heavily rely on on tab targeting. pushing one key to target and then push another to attack is mathematical 100% clunkier than just push one key to attack. u can have personal preference of 1+1=0.5 that does not make it true.

 

[The Narc2]

inqu and xbox skills are less responsive than melee skills or spells is not a matter of personal preference is a fact due to the attack speed/animation.

tab targeting being more antiquated than action combat is a fact not a matter of personal preference.

range is the only play style that heavily rely on on tab targeting. pushing one key to target and then push another to attack is mathematical 100% clunkier than just push one key to attack. u can have personal preference of 1+1=0.5 that does not make it true.

Lol you could always use auto targetting.