Combat): You attack The Five Fangs. You roll a 6 (+191): you miss!

[Monkey_Archer]

Maybe they have been adjusting the AC targets to deal with inquisitive builds and at the same time nerf some other builds that werent balanced enough in SSG’s preferences to be focusing enough on to hit versus other abilities? I suspect melee’s could be hit with this and then have to move around some of their gear and trees to compensate, balancing them similar to what has happened to casters in the past.

We all have known that melee’s were going to be the next in the crosshairs, this maybe just the start of what is to come.

AC was adjusted up before the xbow changes. Also, ranged and the inquisitive tree in particular has an attack bonus advantage over most other styles and trees, so using monster AC as a balancing mechanism would produce the exact opposite result... (unless buffing inquisitive more is the goal of course...)

That aside, the monster AC changes were positive IMO. Attack bonuses actually matter now, which is a good thing. Now we just need monsters with PRR, MRR, hp and arrow deflection that matter too...

 

[erethizon1]

Well, we're talking about devs who have no hands-on experience with the game. You guys complain that the game is too easy. How can you blame them for the high numbers?

The best solution has always been to play easy builds when you want the game to be easy and to play more challenging builds when you want the game to be harder. Counting on the developers to balance the game pretty much can't work unless they make the game easier for weaker builds and harder for stronger ones even when they are grouped in the same dungeon at the same time (which isn't really a reasonable request). If someone finds a build too strong to be enjoyable, play something else.

 

[Positive thinking]

AC was adjusted up before the xbow changes. Also, ranged and the inquisitive tree in particular has an attack bonus advantage over most other styles and trees, so using monster AC as a balancing mechanism would produce the exact opposite result... (unless buffing inquisitive more is the goal of course...)

That aside, the monster AC changes were positive IMO. Attack bonuses actually matter now, which is a good thing. Now we just need monsters with PRR, MRR, hp and arrow deflection that matter too...

YMMV

But i have seen AC increases in low level heroics increasing(mostly in quests that have legendary counterparts) that are increasing grazed hits, its fun and more challenging.

Certainly designed to try and increase mob damage output. As for end game, i only speculate based off the poster I quoted.

If the raised AC at cap is having the opposite effect as you suggest then it truly is part if the start of the incoming nerfs to melee that we all were expecting to come, ssg is consistent in spreading it around and now they will create a whole new power chase for melee’s to catch up. Many will hope that this power chase isnt hidden behind rare loot and lots of astral shard rerolls.

 

[Ying]

It's no surprise that AC, HP, and saves always go up with new content. The solution is sold in the same content. If you're still using Sharn gear for Myth Drannor-era content, you're playing the game on hard mode.

 

[The Narc2]

It's no surprise that AC, HP, and saves always go up with new content. The solution is sold in the same content. If you're still using Sharn gear for Myth Drannor-era content, you're playing the game on hard mode.

I still play the game running elite or higher thru to epic TR basically running level 8 slavers gearset added to with some sands gear, tweaked a little bit with some level 21 borderlands gear i might pick up on the way, if i am lucky I get a jewelled cloak in heroics or epics. I guess its harder but I dont waste much time farming quests in xpacs with bloated groups of mobs with bloated HP’s, one and done as much as possible.

AC’s have 100% changed in heroic content, such as saltmarsh, gatekeepers chain, feywild, but that just makes it more challenging and some are flattered by the changes. Will it deter new players that come to the game, absolutely, but new players will be told to play on normal or hard, lol yeah that will keep them around.

I agree that the more they do to try and slow down the people at the top the more it will impact all the other players not at the top. I witnessed that first hand in one of the guilds i was previously in and it was a self-inflicted coup de grace. Doing this to the casual players of DDO is just going to push more and more population away. They really do need to find a way to make a new setting at the end game to provide a challenge for those that have already reached the pinnacle of power or they may be lost to the game as well.

Shrug

 

[Sylvanush]

Reroll?

 

[LurkingVeteran]

They should beef up PRR instead of AC. Strings of misses are just much more frustrating than dealing lower damage, so when miss % goes up so does the number of frustrated melee players.

 

[ChickenMobile]

Here's a breakdown from a pure Monk build I'm working on. Aside from the racial/class bonuses, you're probably missing several important sources.

Weapon To-Hit:
020 Class Base Attack Bonus (handwraps)
005 Epic Base Attack Bonus
022 Weapon enhancement (15 + 7 Magic Fang) 015 Weapon enhancements
023 024 Accuracy item
010 023 Insightful Accuracy
042 STR 046 WIS bonus
004 Shifter: Destructive/Overwhelming Shifting 003 Aasimar: Fight the Wicked 3
001 Harper Agent of Good
003 Warpriest 004 Shintao Studies 4
004 Divine Cursader Just Cause / Spear of Light 003 Shinto Meditation of War
005 Prayer (luck) 004 Fury of the Wild: Spirit of the Beast
005 Bless 004 Morale: Greater Heroism augment
002 Guild Ship Proving Ground
002 Potion of Prowess
002 Legendary Dreadnought: Weaponmaster
003 Legendary Dreadnought: Honor
001 x1 003 Fighter past life x3
003 Dragon Disciple past life x3
003 Arcane Enchant Weapon past lives x3
006 Primal Past Life: Ancient Power past lives x3
002 Scion of Arborea feat
003 Shattered Device 2pc bonus
001 Reaper’s Offense I
001 Reaper’s Offense II
002 Reaper’s Offense IV
010 Eerie Aim feat
-02 Yugo pot (Essence of Betrayal) (I don't use Yugo Pots usually because cbf getting the favor)
003 Prowess/Next Fall
003 Artifact (Sora Kell)
001 Follower of Path of Light (Sacred Fist)
002 Curse of Major Prowess
-05 Power Attack

Also a handwraps build, but 1 SF/14 Clr/5 DL Razorclaw. Green is bonuses shared, red is don't have and white is a different bonus.

Seems like the main thing I'm missing is Fighter past lives and main stat is lower (yours must be at least 102 to get a 46 mod, mine was 95). Also I'm using a Charisma trance (used both Warpriest with Dragon Lord at the time because the combat DCs stack and could use while raging) so the insightful bonus is lower too.

Base to Hit = 186 (vs 190 for you),
Critical bonus = +20 (3 Crusader, 15 Seeker item with Curse of Major Masterworks, 2 Prowess)
Sneak attack / flanking bonus = +13 (Dark Hunter x1, 12 Deception item)
Temp: +2 while in an Action Boost, +15 from Terror, +15 from Destruction Domain, +6 from Ravager: Fury, Sunder 10%

Don't know why the builder says accuracy base is +166 then. Seeing as I came up with this set myself (almost, thanks Nic) feel better about it now

 

[Oliphant]

Anyone know what no-fail attack would need to be? Sorry if I missed it.

 

[PersonMan]

Anyone know what no-fail attack would need to be? Sorry if I missed it.

Don't think so but assuming 7 is a hit with +191 (6 being a graze) we can do the math to estimate its AC and then more math to figure out what astronomical number you need to never graze.

Incidentally the massive bonus all Lantern enemies received in Epic+ content was severely reduced in the update where they mentioned Head of the Beast being nerfed. Also turns out I might have previously been doing some math wrong in my head for these calculations (not sure), but anyway

(191 + 10.5) / (Enemy AC * 2) = ~.5 +.2 (presuming to hit on a 7 and graze on a 6) It has between 184 and 201 AC which should require between +266 and +291 to hit .75 +.2 (95% of the time)

 

[Mindos]

t has between 184 and 201 AC which should require between +266 and +291 to hit .75 +.2 (95% of the time)

wow

 

[Oliphant]

If I have +212 to hit, should I then take another +10 accuracy feat for this situation?

 

[PersonMan]

If I have +212 to hit, should I then take another +10 accuracy feat for this situation?

Perhaps someone who has done more testing for how everything To Hit vs AC works could chime in as I am uncertain about a few things.

The short answer is "It depends."
It depends on what +% to hit bonuses you have. (such as Elven Accuracy) It also depends on what its AC actually is.

Presuming you have no % bonus (beyond proficiency) and presuming its AC is 184 (the low end) then a +10 would not matter to you. you would be going from .804619 to .831793, which should just be .8 (also presuming it just truncates instead of actually rounding)
Basically if its AC is 184-185 or 193-201 then that +10 will not shift you into the next 5%, but anywhere from 186-192 it should.
If it does actually round then it would just shift what numbers matter.

Update: It appears it does actually round rather than truncate
Tested non-proficient +9 vs 58 AC = ~16.8% and missed on a 17.
Tested non-proficient +10 vs 58 AC = ~17.7% and hit on a 17.

 

[Ying]

Don't think so but assuming 7 is a hit with +191 (6 being a graze) we can do the math to estimate its AC and then more math to figure out what astronomical number you need to never graze.

And which AC debuffs did you account for?

 

[PersonMan]

And which AC debuffs did you account for?

Thanks, I suppose the OP did say "DEBUFFED." As you can glean from looking at the post no debuffs were factored in. We don't know what they were at the time so the potential range on how much AC it was missing at that moment is quite large. Assuming people are carrying the same debuffs to AC and applying them similarly then the previous calculations are what we can expect its AC to be once things are underway and what your To-Hit needs to be post debuff application. If we had info on what debuffs and preferably how many stacks of those debuffs then we could properly input those numbers. As of now we can just say that its starting AC is bigger.
If anyone wants specific concrete numbers they will need to do actual rigorous testing to pin them down, rather than just a single data point without full context (what debuffs).

 

[Ying]

The majority of players don't consider the importance of debuffs because they don't understand how impactful they are. They're actually the largest source of damage increase in the game outside of multipliers like MP/RP/USP etc.

15 Terror (Dread Mantle)
15 Destruction (Deconstructor augment)
10 Shiradi Track
--
40 AC reduction is a fairly reasonable number in OP's situation given that melee primarily run LD mantle, and Shiradi is covered by Inquis.

There are additional AC reducers like HW Dauntless Marking (and others), but aren't relevant unless there are builds that are actually played.

 

[woq]

The majority of players don't consider the importance of debuffs because they don't understand how impactful they are. They're actually the largest source of damage increase in the game outside of multipliers like MP/RP/USP etc.

15 Terror (Dread Mantle)
15 Destruction (Deconstructor augment)
10 Shiradi Track
--
40 AC reduction is a fairly reasonable number in OP's situation given that melee primarily run LD mantle, and Shiradi is covered by Inquis.

There are additional AC reducers like HW Dauntless Marking (and others), but aren't relevant unless there are builds that are actually played.

Also inquisitors provide Harmonic Resonance for another 15

---

AC debuffs for modern encounters are very underrated and covering a wider variety should become the norm. Includes Divine Sundering from DC, Consecrated Cinders & Shadows Upon You from EA as these are more or less "universally" accessible.

We'll see if things like the Marking from Deep Wood Stalker lvl 18 core will become popular with AC reduction having more valuable, but I doubt it. They can't go high enough on ac to make class specific AC reductions mandatory lest they make generic content essentially inaccessible for pugs.

 

[PersonMan]

If anyone wants specific concrete numbers they will need to do actual rigorous testing to pin them down, rather than just a single data point without full context (what debuffs).

... assuming 7 is a hit with +191 (6 being a graze)

Before doing more calculations I think we need more data on what does and does not hit. As of now we have a single data point that 6 +191 missed. We don't even know that a 7 would have hit.
I would add more importantly, do we even know why it said "miss" as opposed to "grazing hit." Did he actually mean graze? Does it have some mechanic that just makes you miss? Far as I knew the only way to miss above a 1 is to not be proficient.

I'm thinking the relevant wiki pages need some updating. From a little testing it looks like Tower Shields cannot graze regardless of proficiency?

 

[Ying]

Also inquisitors provide Harmonic Resonance for another 15

Good catch with Harmonic Resonance.

We'll see if things like the Marking from Deep Wood Stalker lvl 18 core will become popular with AC reduction having more valuable, but I doubt it.

But then you'd have to play a Ranger, and those are extinct. Maybe if SSG fixes favored enemy damage, @Teh_Troll will campaign to Make Rangers Great Again.

 

[PersonMan]

The majority of players don't consider the importance of debuffs because they don't understand how impactful they are. They're actually the largest source of damage increase in the game outside of multipliers like MP/RP/USP etc.

Likely true. It is hard to know what works and does not work, what is important and what is not. I did not consider PRR/MRR debuffs so good until I found out those numbers can go negative. (I had valued Vulnerability over them)