Cormyr is an epic fail as far as lag goes :(

[GrizzlyOso]

*facepalm*

OK. A server has (10? I dunno) instances on it.
Instance 1 bogs down due to lighting issues in WPM's crayfish room (NOTE: crayfish, not crab).
Instance 2-10 ALSO bog down because they happen to be on the same server and instance 1 is hogging all the resources.

Note, it's not the graphics rendering itself causing the issues, it's background server processes that send the lighting information to the clients that is bogging down. (If I recall the description from Tolero correctly).

Not sure it can get much simpler than that.

Sorry , why is the server sending lighting information to the client ?

Facepalm right back at you.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

It causes lag in WPM, not global lag. Just like the shroud work in u70 helped with shroud lag. I can't be upset with them fixing localized lag that they detect along the way.

In some ways I get it, if these were footnotes to actual lag found and solved. But these being the main examples ? And lag worse than ever? Fail.

Stop prioritizing dumb work, from the store, to vip , to these things , to big dumb wildernesses, and prioritize a good game.

 

[Phoenicis]

Sorry , why is the server sending lighting information to the client ?

Facepalm right back at you.

You asked for a simple explanation for how it could happen.

I provided said explanation based on information provided by Tolero in a FaF stream.

I have no insight into WHY that would be the case.

You are being an...

 

[GrizzlyOso]

You asked for a simple explanation for how it could happen.

I provided said explanation based on information provided by Tolero in a FaF stream.

I have no insight into WHY that would be the case.

You are being an...

Finish your sentence, please. Oh right, trailing off absolves you from name calling ?

You didn’t answer at all in a simple way why lighting in the (excuse me) crayfish room has anything to do with server lag.

Want to facepalm and call rabidfox names also ? Because they stated it the same way.

 

[Smokewolf]

I ran 6-7 quests with an R7 groups and saw, one named item drop.

 

[Phoenicis]

Finish your sentence, please. Oh right, trailing off absolves you from name calling ?

You didn’t answer at all in a simple way why lighting in the (excuse me) crayfish room has anything to do with server lag.

Want to facepalm and call rabidfox names also ? Because they stated it the same way.

Some people love being difficult, I fail to learn this lesson and get aggravated time and again.

Again: I based the explanation, which was a simplified as I could make it, on information provided by Tolero. Is it a cause for global lag? Dunno, but Tolero's explanation seemed to indicate it was a contributing factor.

Rabid may have understood the explanation differently than I did. He may be right, I may be wrong. He however is not repeatedly asking the same question in a manner that implies superior understanding/knowledge to others.

I am out and will no longer engage in this discussion. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[rabidfox]

Again: I based the explanation, which was a simplified as I could make it, on information provided by Tolero. Is it a cause for global lag? Dunno, but Tolero's explanation seemed to indicate it was a contributing factor.

Rabid may have understood the explanation differently than I did. He may be right, I may be wrong. He however is not repeatedly asking the same question in a manner that implies superior understanding/knowledge to others.

I don't know; I assumed those fixes were for local issues where the quest/raid chokes. But it's also DDO, so I wouldn't be surprised by any local issue cascading out and effecting the whole server either.

 

[Eoin]

Yup, so explain how graphics rendering in wpm causes global lag like I’m 5 , as asked.

Would need to ask a dev for exact details since they said they saw it affect the server.

Maybe calculations by mob AIs for what objects they can see because the engine need to see if a location is dark? I could see too many light sources messing with calculating what's hidden by shadows.

Maybe the engine gets extra chatty trying the pass that state information along to client?

Heck, the engine might have:

if (object.LightSource > 5) { Sleep(420); }

and with no documentation around that line, nobody is brave enough to delete it because lord knows what other issues it could be preventing.

 

[Dendrix Deathblade]

As you move about the client sends your position info to the server. You enter a spot that is part of a volume defined on the server that triggers a script that runs on the server for that one instance. That script eats all the CPU available for a long time say 30s, the cpu resources on the server shared amongst multiple instances running on the server are all used by 1 instance and so the others are starved of resources and experience lag until the instance eating cpu releases it.

 

[Mornyngstar]

In some ways I get it, if these were footnotes to actual lag found and solved. But these being the main examples ? And lag worse than ever? Fail.

Stop prioritizing dumb work, from the store, to vip , to these things , to big dumb wildernesses, and prioritize a good game.

These are the examples that were given on the fly during an off the cuff interview. It was not a detailed analysis for dissection with other programmers. There is more detail in the recent release notes: Update 70.1 Release Notes.

 

[Bitss]

Traditional client/server architecture has clients sending and receiving data to and from the server. Clients don't communicate with each other so any data you have on them is from the server. T[]

If you run Wireshark (a tool for networking monitoring and troubleshooting) you'll see that this game has almost no activity. You wouldn't want to play on dial-up but you don't need to be much higher than that for it to be playable. This game is built on an engine from 1999 after all, and in fact if you look in Options -> Troubleshoot you'll see a connection speed option for speeds between 28.8K and 128K. In 1999 most people were on 56K modems.

1. yeah, or using Data Centers. Wireshark is another 3rd party program, akin to the one I posted elsewhere - I don't trust any program to mirror without collecting. **"broadband Equity Access & Deployment" (BEAD) is in full swing now --Covid lit a fire under that, and BIDEN made it happen. **The local carriers are going nuts building - y'all may have seen , in the USA, promo rates for Fiber Connections, right @Cordovan

Expect lag to get worse as more people tune in because it's a Party Line, all over again thanks, not, to Crowd Fiber... But, still, glass Fiber (done/connected right) is definitely 100 x's faster than Copper (Coax/Ethernet)

People get too hung up on bandwidth, latency is a far more important factor

Bandwidth is like the newly opened chest - max capable resources - THAT'S WHY BANDWIDTH IS important.
Latency can happen at splices, at a MINIMUM. Can you imagine how many splices happen in a Mile long run?

Have you run wireshark, I would not expect a lot of data but I would expect a lot of exchanges

Yes, I've run Wireshark. I thought I implied that with my post but apparently I needed to state it outright. Activity levels vary but walking around public areas the packet rate is maybe two or three per second with a length of 20 to 40 bytes. This game engine is built for modems not high speed Internet though I don't know how a raid would perform or loading the bank. I've mostly just tested public areas like the Harbor.

No, you just needed to mention it once, apparently. What, pray tell, is the difference between Modems and High Speed Internet?

Maybe the devs should ringfence stable code so any updates they make doesn't break existing sections of the gaming system that have worked for years: []

What does it mean to "ringfence?" Sandbox?

As stated in the Fridays at Four with Tolero there was an invisible trigger that was updating a large number of data points. This was replicated a few times through Shroud so they went in and made an adjustment since all those updates did not need to be made.

Yeah, and their end doesn't process anything, or so I've been told

 

[Bitss]

The server does not render, it transmits the data between clients and what the enemies are doing. The end result is your computer rendering the graphics. If you have a high-end graphics card, you can run High-Definition graphics. There is one thing on Client side that was affected graphics wise that they fixed. In the Crayfish room in Whiteplume Mountain the "key lights" were spaced too close together and the rendering of them dropped the frame rate.

I pity your auto mechanic.

The dealership bailed on me when I asked him to remove the skid plates Zeibart did not remove to do their Undercoating, instead coating the bolts. So, really? I'ma find someone who WILL take off those skid plates so Zeibart WILL do what they claim (UNDERCOATING) and then go back to my dude and PAY HIM for his trouble when ZIEBART SHOULD REMOVE THE SKID PLATES BEFORE UNDERCOATING. AHEM!

Yes. I´m sure. Graphical effects aren´t sent by the server.
Lets say you want to cast a fireball. You press your "Fireball" key, the keypress, your location, your selected target are sent to the server, the server now calculates if you hit, considers your enhancements, the mobs resistances, vulnerabilites, etc. - all of which is data that is already on the server. When it comes to a conclusion, it sends back if you hit and how much damage the mobs take, and likely the coordinates where the fireball hits.
How the fireball looks, is 100% down to your local graphic settings and rendered by your computer.

It´s a bit like the server is the DM, you tell him that you want to cast fireball and roll your dice, the DM now tells you what happens to the monsters. How that fireball looks in your head is up to your imagination.

Now this is speculation on my part: Lag happens when the server takes too long to determine what happens with your fireball. Maybe the game has become too complex with item effects, enhancements, feats, reaper points, tons of AOE effects, etc.
It´s like every time you cast a spell, your DM has to look up the rules and you wait for the outcome.

So... is that the burden or Server or Client?

Traditional client/server architecture has clients sending and receiving data to and from the server. Clients don't communicate with each other {}

Do Data Center communicate? I'll bet they do. I'll bet they shore up latency/loss across their system.... but DDO is a product and the Transportation is 3rd party.

 

[Lacci]

Know I know you're trolling. LaTENCY is ABSOLUTELY loss, but okay Dumpster Fire won; Latency is not Loss (Even though latency is the EXACT DEFINITION of loss.)

No, latency is a delay of data packages, meaning the data arrives too late. If it´s loss, it doesn´t arrive at all.
You can easily check this by hovering your mouse over the network icon ingame. Latency (ping) and loss are measured independently. You can have high latency without any loss.
Edit: in better words: Latency is the time it takes for data packages to arrive at their destination, doesn´t necessarily mean they are "too late", but there will always be latency in a network, but not loss.

Then what does process the demand we send when we rolled an 17 and X should happen? ...as that is what I meant when I said graphical effects. ON TOP OF all these other frills: pets, wings, etc.

What ? How is that a graphical effect ??

 

[Bitss]

Alright, I see, you are actually trolling ... good luck with that then.

You used the actual term "Loss," but I'm the troll? Oh, exqueeze me for wondering where the "extra resources" came from with regard to Cormyr.

Latency is Delay, DEATH IN MMO and CAN ALSO BE LOSS. FFS, the providers *Spectrum, etc or your local carrier, are building out Fiber Optic (FO) like crazy. The only good thing about COVID is that it forced Corporate to realize that we need to be connected; hence B.E.A.D. Thank you BIDEN, though dumpster will get the credit, I'm sure, because people don't care enough anymore to keep track of how Congress works; let alone how their game works.

 

[Sylvado]

You used the actual term "Loss," but I'm the troll? Oh, exqueeze me for wondering where the "extra resources" came from with regard to Cormyr.

Latency is Delay, DEATH IN MMO and CAN ALSO BE LOSS. FFS, the providers *Spectrum, etc or your local carrier, are building out Fiber Optic (FO) like crazy. The only good thing about COVID is that it forced Corporate to realize that we need to be connected; hence B.E.A.D. Thank you BIDEN, though dumpster will get the credit, I'm sure, because people don't care enough anymore to keep track of how Congress works; let alone how their game works.

Loss is dropped packets, latency is a measurement of time.

 

[Bitss]

Loss is dropped packets, latency is a measurement of time.

Loss and latency are the same in this discussion (*IMO) FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES. And in REALITY. Can words still mean something here, please?

@Sylvado explain, if you would, why that is relevant here, assuming it is? Instead of a 5 word reply. wouldn't you rather really display your knowledge for all to see and be in awe?

 

[Dendrix Deathblade]

Loss and Latency aren't the same. Trying to make one thing be equivalent to another is why you fail to understand the problem.
Keep on trolling Bitss

 

[Bracelet]

Loss and latency are the same in this discussion (*IMO) FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES. And in REALITY. Can words still mean something here, please?

I am lamenting the fact that for some people no amount of words seem to work.

Data loss means exactly that: the transmitted data never makes it to the server or the client.

Data latency is how long it takes the data to get there. By definition the data is not lost.

 

[Lacci]

Can words still mean something here, please?

Yes, "latency" means one thing, "loss" means another.

 

[MarauderX]

I ran 6-7 quests with an R7 groups and saw, one named item drop.

R7 on Cormyr already?