Dark Apostate and Epic Destiny support suggestions

Lotoc

Well-known member
Dark Apostate currently falls a bit short of really feeling as great as it could.
Personally I like the themes and what it's trying to do as a debuffer/neg/evil caster and imbue support for warpriest but it currently misses the mark.

General suggestions that impact the state of DA
Inflict Spells: The single target inflict spells need to be moved off touch range and not require facing - they are borderline unusable offensively due to how much enemies tend to move and even worse to use to heal allied undead.
Alignment Spells: Cleric and Favored Soul spellbooks just completely forget about alignment spells after fourth level and what few Light spells that exist 5th to 9th level are all undertuned releative to spells at the same level in other elements - the divine spellbook could really do with more options to use spells that are actually divine in nature and not just fire spells.

Dark Apostate's enhancements and how I would propose improving them
Cores:
Dark Apostate: Each Core Ability you take in this tree, including this one, grants you +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative, Light, and Alignment Spell Power and increase the damage of your Pray for Mercy effect by 1 per caster level.
Overall this is just one part of the changes I'd make to Pray for Mercy.
Enhanced Shadowform II: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 15% each). Your Bestow Curse, Doom, and Bane spells no longer have a saving throw and bypass spell resistance.
The spells Bless, Bane and Prayer are all subject to spell resistance, spell resistance also blocks the triggered damage of Pray For Mercy as a result, as Pray for Mercy is pretty much meant to be your answer to enemies being immune to negative spells it leaves you with very little option when facing enemies such as Golems.
Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). Passive: +4 Wisdom, +1 bonus Imbue Dice. Rend the Soul is added to your spellbook as a 9th level spell.
Right now Dark Apostates and Clerics in general lack a 9th level damage spell option for Negative energy, Rend the Soul is a thematic fit for a debuffer.

The Apostate's Curse line: 2AP per imbue dice is pretty established as overcosted at this point, the enhancements could really stand to be reduced to 1 AP each, alternatively the enhancements could gain an additional caster beneficial effect to warrant their cost and make picking up the imbue dice more rewarding for the caster side of DA.
If giving the enhancements caster elements I would suggest
Enhanced Curse II: Your Deity's Favored Weapon is now an Implement in your hands. +1 bonus Imbue Dice and Darkfire (as the racial Drow SLA) is added to your spellbook as a first level spell.
Enhanced Curse III: Your Apostate's Curse gains: On crit, you apply the effects of the Curse spell. +1 bonus Imbue Dice your Darkfire fires an additional bolt and also applies the Bestow Curse effect.
Ultimate Heresy(Caster): Your Apostate's Curse gains: On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability. +2 bonus Imbue Dice your Darkfire fires an additional bolt and gains 1 damage per caster level per 3 imbue dice.
This would both make these enhancements more rewarding and revitalize an existing spell which is pretty unused.

Pray for Mercy: Your Prayer-like spells (Bless, Bane, Prayer) now resonate with Evil energies, dealing 1d6+(1 per core) Evil damage per Caster Level to all enemies. This damage is doubled against enemies that are Cursed.
This ability is at interesting but underperforming, the damage is absolutely undertuned at 1d4 per caster level and even when doubled against cursed enemies it's underwhelming, I genuinely suggest scrapping the doubled damage vs cursed enemies aspect of the effect in favor of giving Pray For Mercy decent damage.

Enhanced Turning: +[2/4/6] uses of Turn Undead per rest, You count as [0/1/2] levels higher when turning undead. This increases the maximum level of creature you can turn and also increases the total number of hit dice you can turn.
In addition, you add an additional [0/2/4] to the number of hit dice you can turn.

This is mostly to smooth the turning gap between regular cleric and dark apostate, enhanced turning is a lot weaker than improved turning as enhancements go.

Dark Judgement: When you use Turn Undead, you and your allies gain +[3/6/10] Temporary HP per bonus Imbue Dice doubled for undead.
Leaning into the undead supportive elements DA could stand to have.

The Tier 5s
Benediction
: (merged with Necromantic devotion) Your Harm spells now benefits from 200% Spell Power scaling and may now kill enemies. +1 DC with Necromancy and Evocation spells.
As cool as benediction is it is actually just propping up a spell that's underwhelming compared to mass inflicts even with the 200% spell power scaling.

Ward of Shadow: Grants temporary immunity to multiple targets to all forms of alignment-based energy (good, evil, law, chaos, and light) for 1 minute per caster level or until 12 points of energy per caster level (max 120) for each energy type has been absorbed. Rename the spell Protection from Alignments, add it to the regular spellbook and remove this enhancement, it is incredibly underwhelming for a t5 enhancement and doesn't really scale at all into epics without Primal Avatar which does not suit a DA t5 build.

Shadows of Death: You gain +5% Negative, Light, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance. Pray for Mercy is upgraded to deal an additional +1 Evil damage per caster level
A more appropriate effect for the proposed changes to Pray for Mercy

Deathshadow Curse (replaces Ward of Shadow): Your curse effects apply 20% vulnerability to Evil and Negative Energy damage.
The recent monk revamp removed a negative energy vulnerability effect from the game because it wasn't exactly useful for monks themselves, Dark Apostate would be a suitable class for such an effect to be reintroduced on.

Apostate's Desecration (replaces Necromantic Devotion): Channel Divinity: You defile the area beneath your feet, creating an area of shadows and death. Every 3 seconds enemies in the area take d3 negative and d3 evil damage per character level and allied undead are healed for 1 negative energy per character level. (Honestly I just think this would be cool.) And when you expend a turn attempt for any purpose all nearby cursed enemies are afflicted with Death Mark Curse for 20 seconds, removing immunities to negative energy and dispelling death wards.

Ultimate Heresy: Split into a multiselector between Ultimate Heresy(Caster) (posted earlier) and Ultimate Heresy(Martial): Your Apostate's Curse gains: On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability. +2 bonus Imbue Dice, +20% competence HP and 20 melee power.
 
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Lotoc

Well-known member
Epic destiny support:
The current support for DA in epic destinies is pretty poor, if you want get Radiant spell damage for your evil damage your options are Exalted Angel or Primal Avatar, which are both split budgeted to support fire and offer nothing for your Negative energy spell options, meanwhile negative support is tied up in Magus and Draconic which do not support alignment spells. Supposedly negative and light will be supported by the warlock themed destiny going by the Keeper of the Curse filigree set (much as how the Technomage set foreshadowed Machrotech's Sonic/Lightning pairing.) but that could be years away and there's not really any reason to neglect alignment casting until it is developed.

Honestly I would propose that BOTH Magus of the Eclipse and Shadowdancer be given support for Evil as a damage type, for a start they are both dark themed 'caster' trees and even before the ED revamp Shadowdancer had evil damage in place of all the force damage it currently does and it really does make sense for Dark Apostate which is using a shadow shroud to want to be in Shadow Dancer which is also a very debuffing skewed tree.

Shadowdancer Changes:
Evil Spellpower per core, Evil spellpower added to Well of Darkness, Lithe and Unholy Feeding
Nightmare Lance: Gives both an evil and force damage version of the spell, evil version uses Necromancy for DCs.
Dark Imbuement and Paranoia: Changed to use highest of Spell Power or 200% Melee/Ranged power triggering on attacks or spells, Dark Imbuement dealing evil damage and Paranoia dealing force damage.
From the Shadows: Multiselector added Trueshadow Blades: adds Evil damage to Shadowblade spells, adds Evil Damage equal to Piercing damage to Spirit Blades and Spirit Blades uses 200% melee or ranged power if it is higher than spellpower.
Dark Mercy (3/3): Trigger a free cast of Spirit Blades every 6 seconds on hit with spells, ranged or melee while in Shadowdancer Mantle.
Unholy Feeding: Imbue dice added to the temp HP on kill.
Just a Taste: Multiselector added Shadowblade Storm: SLA rains blades of shadow on an area dealing evil and force damage over time.

Magus Changes:
Evil spellpower added in places where Cold/Negative spellpower are
Evil damage added to mantle effects, giving parity with primal mantles thorn and sky for overall potential throughput.
Evil epic Strike and SLAs; Bloodmoon lance, Wicked Light of the Bloodmoon, Bloodmoon's glare or whatever.
Greater beams Bloodmoon: grasped by shadowy tentacles.

These changes would help both Warlocks and Dark Apostates and actually give the new warlock iconic's Dark Powers pact solid ED options to tie in with their focus on evil damage.
 
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Lotoc

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure the only viable option for dark apostate is draconic with shadow dragon breath?
Well Negative Magus is entirely solid as long as things aren't immune to negative energy, which they will be, Upgraded Shadow Dragon Breath pretty much matches Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass in damage but ICWM is a 6 second cooldown vs Dragon Breath's 15
And DA is pretty much designed to have radiant/evil spellpower just behind Negative for when stuff is immune to negative, but currently ED options for using radiant are lacking and radiant options are undertuned.
 
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kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
Well Negative Magus is entirely solid as long as things aren't immune to negative energy, which they will be, Upgraded Shadow Dragon Breath pretty much matches Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass in damage but ICWM is a 6 second cooldown vs Dragon Breath's 15
And DA is pretty much designed to have radiant/evil spellpower just behind Negative for when stuff is immune to negative, but currently ED options for using radiant are lacking and radiant options are undertuned.
That sounds very disappointing actually :(
 
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Underflow

Well-known member
That sounds very disappointing actually :(
Draconic can work, but the damage dice are disappointing, yeah. Dark Apostate also gets bonus +3 MCL from Capstone/T5 Divine Disciple, leaning you further towards the otherwise better scaling Magus spells.

Dragon Breath would probably get upgraded into Vortex, if only because Negative Cleric spells have insanely long cooldowns and you need the consistent damage.

It comes down to whether you value Time Stop (enough to ensure you're always contributing something) or Ruin based coverage damage (Against targets that are immune to Negative).

Enlarged Harm is MCL 18 at 20, 25 at 34, meaning 250 base damage... 500 with T5 DA if you're into that (You probably aren't)

Personally, I'd go with Draconic's upgraded Mantle and Magus T5, but I can definitely see value in doing the opposite.

Moon's Shadow is d6+28/cl, and with a capped 30, that's 30d6+840, 930 damage average, vs Greater Ruin's 1000 damage set. Greater Ruin also has a shorter cooldown, never mind actual Ruin... It all comes down to SP efficiency at the end of it. Do you want to do 1500 damage (plus a bonus 1500 Untyped damage) every 15 seconds for a huge amount of SP, or 930 damage every 18 seconds plus a massive Raid buff and a better consistent damage source of Gloomspear?
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
Enlarged Harm is MCL 18 at 20, 25 at 34, meaning 250 base damage... 500 with T5 DA if you're into that (You probably aren't)
Just a correction, the base damage of harm is untouched, it's still 250 base at 34 it just scales with 200% negative spellpower, Inflict critical wounds mass at a CL of 30 (7 from epic levels, 3 from CL bonuses) is an average of 405 base damage.
Harm doesn't take spellpower metamagics so is behind on spellpower by 300 (seems only alchemist can apply empower healing to harm and inflicts.)
Say with an estimated 1400 spellpower at level 34 (a high end estimate)
ICWM 1700 spellpower with metas- 405 increased by 1700% = 7290 average
Harm 1400 spellpower (no metas) doubled - 250 increased by 2800% = 7000

If spellpower values get high enough then Harm eventually overtakes (for single target damage) but the question is with current stat growths will spellpower actually get that high?

One thing I didn't account for to keep in mind, ICWM is not currently caster level capped (MCL 45), items with bonuses to necromancy or divine caster levels will boost the damage of it, but Harm is MCL 15, so itemized caster level bonuses will help maintain ICWM's superiority.
 
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Quartis

Well-known member
I dont like this whole Enhancements add spells into spellbooks. Just add these spells on default to the spellbook of cleric or only to dark apostate. Enhancements give SLA.

Wildmage & stormsinger add new spells into the spellbook so dark apostate should do it too.
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Spell power / DC based abilities are the real problem IMO. Especially when getting them to scale into Epics and thus be competitive and sustainable vs. Physical DPS classes.
 

Gruben

Active member
with my DA caster im T5 magus, T4 draconic(using draconic mantle), T3 fatesinger. its difficult to pass up fatesinger with the bonuses to sp cost and threat reduction. I mostly ignore negative dragon breath because its not a necromancy DC(conjuration) so its actually useless. cool suggestions, the debate around harm is kinda mute to me i can spam out mass inflict wounds while healing undead party members so im doing just about similar single target. necrotic ray is far better single target than harm, for me harm is for healing myself and party members. The only way i would ever consider going T5 dark apostate tree over T5 divine disciple is if DA was given multiple harm spells(seperate cooldown) or a mass harm spell. you lose 1% crit chance and gain 5% crit dmg i take that deal any day especially when i can save enough AP from not being specced into DA to spend in Faywild illusionist to pick that 1% crit back up.

some vector for dispelling deathward would be a big buff that i would welcome.
"The recent monk revamp removed a negative energy vulnerability effect from the game because it wasn't exactly useful for monks" what was the vulnerability that was removed?
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
with my DA caster im T5 magus, T4 draconic(using draconic mantle), T3 fatesinger. its difficult to pass up fatesinger with the bonuses to sp cost and threat reduction. I mostly ignore negative dragon breath because its not a necromancy DC(conjuration) so its actually useless. cool suggestions, the debate around harm is kinda mute to me i can spam out mass inflict wounds while healing undead party members so im doing just about similar single target. necrotic ray is far better single target than harm, for me harm is for healing myself and party members. The only way i would ever consider going T5 dark apostate tree over T5 divine disciple is if DA was given multiple harm spells(seperate cooldown) or a mass harm spell. you lose 1% crit chance and gain 5% crit dmg i take that deal any day especially when i can save enough AP from not being specced into DA to spend in Faywild illusionist to pick that 1% crit back up.

some vector for dispelling deathward would be a big buff that i would welcome.
"The recent monk revamp removed a negative energy vulnerability effect from the game because it wasn't exactly useful for monks" what was the vulnerability that was removed?
  • Touch of Despair
    • Sequence: Dark - Dark - Dark
    • 10 Ki.
    • You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification by 25%, and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%.
    • Periodic Fortitude saves to negate.
was the effect removed from the game in the monk revamp, monk players argued to remove it because they do poison damage and not negative.
 
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Wini

Well-known member
After a long time ignoring it, I put pray for mercy spells back on my hotbar: I'm amazed how bad the damage is =)

It's a pity, the animation looks really cool...
 

woq

Well-known member
Dark Apostate is the epitome of "really cool thematics, art and concept but disappointing in practice". I fully support all of the above (or something similar) - the math and the suggestions add up, though I do think the 20% vuln to evil/neg could be 15% and some of the martial gains in the "Ultimate Heresy (melee)" should be split between that and high cores. High cores in DA do almost nothing for martials.

I also don't think it should be locked into melee power, rather it should be melee/ranged power. There is no reason you couldn't have a Dark Apostate with a longbow or a light crossbow.
 

Wini

Well-known member
What I say is, Pray for mercy is 1d4 for caster level, when it could solve most problems for the tree at legendary if they fix it to 1d6+4 per caster level.

It's not the end of the world, just people playing non meta, non OP builds, just wanting to use what's on their trees, lol.
 

AlimonyJFMSU

Well-known member
I've done 20 levels as a Dark Apostate, and it's not until I reached 20 that I really felt like it was getting challenging to make it work. None of these epic destinies do a very good job of supporting the class. The best ad-hoc solution I've found is a combination of Legendary Dreadnought and Magus of the Eclipse.
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
I've done 20 levels as a Dark Apostate, and it's not until I reached 20 that I really felt like it was getting challenging to make it work. None of these epic destinies do a very good job of supporting the class. The best ad-hoc solution I've found is a combination of Legendary Dreadnought and Magus of the Eclipse.
Well this is true for most of the DC based classes. Yet even more so for DA as it's an Archetype that as never intended to surpass the original Cleric.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Yes to scaling PfM damage, it's always what the tree needed for that build-defining mechanic. Should be 1 per core and 2 in T5 to put it at 1d6+8 for epic. Keep the double damage when cursed too, it'll make cursing more relevant, though maybe move that to the capstone.

I like the idea of neg immune breaker based on Turn charges. That makes it a little higher opportunity cost than just a cooldown ability or automatically on spell cast. Probably needs to be lower in the tree though, T3 or 4. Shouldn't need to wait till L12 to handle undead and golems. Also would create some synergy with Abyss lock and Apothecary
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
Yes to scaling PfM damage, it's always what the tree needed for that build-defining mechanic. Should be 1 per core and 2 in T5 to put it at 1d6+8 for epic. Keep the double damage when cursed too, it'll make cursing more relevant, though maybe move that to the capstone.

I like the idea of neg immune breaker based on Turn charges. That makes it a little higher opportunity cost than just a cooldown ability or automatically on spell cast. Probably needs to be lower in the tree though, T3 or 4. Shouldn't need to wait till L12 to handle undead and golems. Also would create some synergy with Abyss lock and Apothecary
I'd say the main issue with letting it keep the double damage on cursed units but also letting it scale to 1d6+8 is that's a lot of power for what is effectively a first level spell with two SLAs, keeping the double damage winds up at 2d6+16, which is better than acid well (23 base damage/CL vs 21 base damage/CL)
Of course you can't really aoe apply curses right now.
It's rare t5 enhancements give SLAs stronger than third level and almost never over 6th level.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
I'd say the main issue with letting it keep the double damage on cursed units but also letting it scale to 1d6+8 is that's a lot of power for what is effectively a first level spell with two SLAs, keeping the double damage winds up at 2d6+16, which is better than acid well (23 base damage/CL vs 21 base damage/CL)
Of course you can't really aoe apply curses right now.
It's rare t5 enhancements give SLAs stronger than third level and almost never over 6th level.

Stormsinger proc scales to 1d6+6 and can proc twice with a T5 when in a Sleet Storm. Its not exactly the same, but its ballpark comparable.

I justify it based on the fact that PfM is pretty much the only unique mechanic that DA gets. Without that, its just Negative casting while in Undead form - you're just a PM with more steps. So it not only needs to adequately scale through the game, but it has to anchor and define your entire playstyle as a DA.

I dont think its a big deal that its "only" a first level SLA, because there really isnt anything higher-level to replace it with. Keeping the scaling locked to the cores ensures it levels with you, which is functionally the same as having higher level versions of the spell unlock as you level up.
 
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