DC changes step 2 - Feats

[l_remmie]

Here are some ideas cribbed from a game that does "epic" content better

Benefit: Choose a school of magic you already have Spell Focus in. The bonus to save DCs provided by Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for that school increases by 1.

Select one school of magic. All bonuses from your feats and mythic feats enhancements that apply to another school of magic, such as Spell Focus feat and School Specialization mythic feat, now apply to the chosen school of magic too.

Ascendant Element

You mastered a certain element to spectacular level. Benefit: Choose one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic, or negative). The damage of that energy type you deal can no longer be prevented or reduced by resistances or immunities.

Elemental Barrage

You mastered the art of raining elemental spells on your foes, and found a way to empower them by combining different elements. Benefit: Every time you deal energy damage to a creature, you apply an elemental mark to it. If during the next three rounds you deal energy damage to a marked target with a different type of energy, the target is dealt additional untyped damage.

I'd love feats that are thought out well and build upon each other and enhancement trees etc.
But does anyone ever see SSG coding any of that. And even then, coding that successfully?
I went as basic as possible.

 

[l_remmie]

I was hoping for damage to be increased somehow. I thought that was the bigger issue with casters anyway.

Everyone does, but that is for a different threat.
Actually landing a spell is a +50% damage increase too.

 

[l_remmie]

Casters can currently hit 160+ in single schools after the recent gear update, so we really don't need even more single school bonuses... Its multple schools that struggle. I'd much rather see non-dc related bonuses added to feats, like lower spell cooldowns in focus schools, or other such benefits. A generalist non-stacking alternative to the focus schools would be welcome though.

160+DC?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Maybe you are content with your ascension to godhood but us mere mortals are struggling very hard to get past 120. And don't even begin about someone not having +8 tomes, full sets, and 15 filigree slots.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

160+DC?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Maybe you are content with your ascension to godhood but us mere mortals are struggling very hard to get past 120. And don't even begin about someone not having +8 tomes, full sets, and 15 filigree slots.

Oh sure, its not easy, but its available. The reason people struggle is because there are so many niche bonuses all over the place (including the 7 feat speciality trick) that most players are either unaware of or are currently out of reach due to lack of past lives, time spent farming gear, etc... There is certainly a barrier to entry that could be toned down, I just don't see even more single school bonuses as the answer.

The unfortunate thing, is every time the devs do try to help the struggling players (like removing the gh augment tax for example) those very players that need said help start complaining for some reason...

Spoiler: dc breakdown

​	Deep Gnome Wizard​
​	int:​
20​	base​
8​	tome​
8​	level ups​
4​	racial comp​
2​	completionist​
15​	enhancement trees​
5​	reaper​
15​	enhancement​
7​	insightful​
3​	quality​
4​	artifact​
2​	festive​
4​	profane​
2​	alchemical​
2​	exceptional​
18​	filigrees​
2​	yugo​
2​	remnant​
2​	ship​
2​	reaper hat​
2​	curse​
2​	Fatesinger​
2​	Primal​
133​	​
​	​
​	​
​	necro DC:​
19​	base​
61​	Stat mod​
1​	Wiz past life​
3​	Iconic Stance​
3​	spell focus line​
3​	spell specialty​
4​	scion​
16​	enhancement​
8​	insightful​
2​	quality​
4​	profane​
3​	sacred​
4​	artifact​
2​	exceptional​
2​	PM enhancements​
2​	AM enhancements​
10​	Eds​
1​	T5 Fatesinger​
4​	reaper​
2​	embolden​
2​	otto set​
2​	beholder set​
2​	grave set​
1​	lunar set​
1​	1 curse​
1​	1 ring​
163​	​

 

[Griglok]

Just my $0.02 but

1. Caster schools (IE: necro, enchant, trans, etc.) should remain the same on gear as they are today (slightly higher bonus for the specific school than you can get from universal enhancements).
2. The current feat lines are fine, but could be improved if they followed the pattern of scion feats. IE: If instead of Spell Focus x School you had feats that granted Spell Power, +2 DCs to a primary school and +1 DC to a secondary school. Make a "greater" version of each in the heroic feat line and change the Epic line to match.
3. Enhancement Tree and Destiny Tree Spell DC bonuses should be universal IMO.
4. There should be more options in the filigree sets to increase school-specific DCs.

 

[Bjond]

every time the devs do try to help the struggling players (like removing the gh augment tax for example) those very players that need said help start complaining for some reason...

IMHO, it's actually posts like your "160 DC post" above that kill off improving caster status quo. I know that was probably the opposite of your intent, but much of that list isn't "hard", but so impractical as to be effectively impossible -- like those posts that show maximum run-speed builds.

Most casters I've talked with seem to have 100~110 DC even after the update. The problem isn't the ceiling. It's the floor. Base DC for a caster with 80 primary stat, ONE single, or 3x mastery needs to end up ~140 for current content. Not a stretch DC caster, just a casual caster.

There's another even simpler solution, too: change MOB DC scaling or add an internal scaling factor to players similar to how Accuracy v AC works for physicals.

The final result should be that casters hit 1:20 fail rate on all DCs with basic investment.

 

[justin credible]

Oh sure, its not easy, but its available. The reason people struggle is because there are so many niche bonuses all over the place (including the 7 feat speciality trick) that most players are either unaware of or are currently out of reach due to lack of past lives, time spent farming gear, etc... There is certainly a barrier to entry that could be toned down, I just don't see even more single school bonuses as the answer.

The unfortunate thing, is every time the devs do try to help the struggling players (like removing the gh augment tax for example) those very players that need said help start complaining for some reason...

Spoiler: dc breakdown

​	Deep Gnome Wizard​
​	int:​
20​	base​
8​	tome​
8​	level ups​
4​	racial comp​
2​	completionist​
15​	enhancement trees​
5​	reaper​
15​	enhancement​
7​	insightful​
3​	quality​
4​	artifact​
2​	festive​
4​	profane​
2​	alchemical​
2​	exceptional​
17​	filigrees​
2​	yugo​
2​	remnant​
2​	ship​
2​	reaper hat​
2​	curse​
2​	Fatesinger​
2​	Primal​
132​	​
​	​
​	​
​	necro DC:​
19​	base​
61​	Stat mod​
1​	Wiz past life​
3​	Iconic Stance​
3​	spell focus line​
3​	spell specialty​
4​	scion​
16​	enhancement​
8​	insightful​
2​	quality​
4​	profane​
3​	sacred​
4​	artifact​
2​	exceptional​
2​	PM enhancements​
2​	AM enhancements​
10​	Eds​
1​	T5 Fatesinger​
4​	reaper​
2​	embolden​
2​	otto set​
2​	beholder set​
2​	grave set​
2​	lunar set​
1​	1 curse​
1​	1 ring​
164​	​

how are you getting 17 int from filligrees, while also getting 4 piece otto, 4 piece beholder, 5 piece lunar magic and 5 piece inevitable grave?

 

[Phaedra]

The final result should be that casters hit 1:20 fail rate on all DCs with basic investment.

I think this is an unrealistic appraisal of SSGs goals for save rates.

If we could get to 25%-50% save rate in R4 with basic investment, I think everyone would be happy with the save rate for dedicated and overgeared casters in R10.

If we go to a system where saves work like AC does now, no one will be happy, and casters who've collected every available boost to DC will be getting 10-20% saves, and casters sitting at 100DC will get ~75% saves.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

how are you getting 17 int from filligrees, while also getting 4 piece otto, 4 piece beholder, 5 piece lunar magic and 5 piece inevitable grave?

Sorry that should read 18 int and 3 piece lunar.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

15 enhancement

16 with GM curse. Difficult and expensive, but possible. I have one on Moonsea. 8)

 

[Jaspar]

Step 2, whatever it is, wont happen until 2030. Or later.

 

[Ratman]

Some DC changes have been made. Plenty of topics about those.
This is about step 2. I don't know what SSG is planning if anything but i'm just gonna call it Feats.


The caster feats are a complete joke. 3 feats gets you.... 3 DC. With legendary included 7 feats gets you 6 DC.
The old feats need to improve and there need to be new ones.
Here are some ideas:

Spellcasting Aspirant
(min lvl 1) req. Magical training
+1 Universal DC

Spellcasting Adept
(min lvl 15) req. Spellcasting Aspirant
+2 Universal DC

Spellcasting Master
(Epic feat min lvl27) req. Spellcasting Adept
+3 Universal DC

The absolute basics needed to raise the floor a tiny bit.
Everyone will take these and that is fine.
It might obsolete the active wizard past life and that is fine too. (all active past lifes need updating)
Note the minimum level requirements are relatively high to minimize impact on old easier content.


Now for the focus feats. All Focus, Greater Focus and legendary specialist feats are removed/changed into these.

Elementalist
(min lvl9) req. Magical training
+2 DC in Evocation and Conjuration

Mind Magic
(min lvl9) req. Magical training
+2 DC in Illusion and Enchantment

Dark magic
(min lvl9) req. Magical training
+2 DC in Necromancy and Transmutation

Through the power of "Batching" you can now pull of a web and fireball it or mass hold mobs under a discoball.
Transmutation gets batched with necromancy because turning people to frogs is not a nice thing to do.
The greater versions are moved to epics.

Epic Elementalist
(min lvl21) req. Elementalist
+2 DC in Evocation and Conjuration

Epic Mind Magic
(min lvl21) req. Mind Magic
+2 DC in Illusion and Enchantment

Epic Dark magic
(min lvl21) req Dark Magic
+2 DC in Necromancy and Transmutation

In early epics +2DC is a fair bonus. Your main casting skill should be close to no-fail at this point due to stats and enhancement trees. With a+4 now in the added school you might still have a fair chance to land those spells.
As for legendary

Legendary Elementalist
(min lvl30) req. Epic Elementalist
+3 DC in Evocation and Conjuration

Legendary Mind Magic
(min lvl30) req. Epic Mind Magic
+3 DC in Illusion and Enchantment

Legendary Dark Magic
(min lvl30) req. Epic Dark Magic
+3 DC in Necromancy and Transmutation

In legendary content the +3DC is the absolute minimum that is needed.

Summary
Taking 3 feats in heroic content nets you a +5 in your school of choice at lvl15. Compared to the previous 3( with wizard life)
That's only a +2 increase, which is very very modest in terms of heroic powercreep.

In legendary you can now get +13 DC of choice and +6 DC in all others. The established gains are +6 DC in 2 different schools for the cost of 8 feats.
These new feats will raise the floor by +7DC which is desperately needed and is still just a drop in the bucket for new casters. A +7 increase for the veterans will maybe get DCs from around 125 to around 135. Which in Lamordia is not even a guaranteed success and still below the easily accessible 150+ by melees and tricksters.

These are the most basic, conservative changes i could come up with. It is a fraction of what is needed.

They can create these feats in a week, no special coding anywhere. Give away fred tokens and call it a grand success.
Dandonk isn't the only one who can dream.......

This would be bad. You’d be forcing casters to give up MANY more feats for this instead of just going skills based or fixing the gear. Unless they’re free class feats this is a bad idea. Well thought out in general and well meaning, but you’d wind up breaking casters further. What do they give up? Metamagics? +3 to a school? Spell pen? The easiest fix is allowing skills to add some DC or just creating new stacking augments or new DC types (should have kept legendary on the ring and expanded it elsewhere).

 

[Sarandra]

Focus, Greater Focus and Epic Focus only unlocks speciality in ANOTHER school.
You need all 3 feats in another school to unlock Speciality in your main school.
So that's 7 feats for 6DC. 8 feats for 6DC in 2 schools.
That is 2 more feats than the 13/6 i am suggesting.

So 3DC in one school, 3 in another school, that would be the correct way of saying it.

 

[l_remmie]

This would be bad. You’d be forcing casters to give up MANY more feats for this instead of just going skills based or fixing the gear. Unless they’re free class feats this is a bad idea. Well thought out in general and well meaning, but you’d wind up breaking casters further. What do they give up? Metamagics? +3 to a school? Spell pen? The easiest fix is allowing skills to add some DC or just creating new stacking augments or new DC types (should have kept legendary on the ring and expanded it elsewhere).

There are plenty of casters already using 8 feats to get +6 DC in two schools. This saves you 2 feats on that.
Having the option to use feats for DC is better than no DC at all.

I designed these changes based on the absolute minimum needed which coincidently is about the absolute maximum i think SSG would possibly give us. I am just begging for crumbs here...

 

[justin credible]

So 3DC in one school, 3 in another school, that would be the correct way of saying it.

you take spell focus necromancy, greater spell focus necromancy, and epic spell focus necromancy, and this lets you take spell specialty for a different school, lets say, illusion for +3 in illusion

but you also take
spell focus illusion, greater spell focus illusion, epic spell focus illusion, and this lets you take spell specialty for a different school, lets say, necromancy

so 8 feats for +6 in 2 schools

 

[LurkingVeteran]

The 7 feat trick to get +6 DC is an insane feat tax on casters btw. The reason people do it is because they really need it, and still do. I don't think U80 changed this in any way.

I suggest you remove the 7 feat trick and increase the value of individual feats instead. Double regular spell focuses (+2) and just remove the prereqs on the legendary ones to so you don't need focuses in two different schools.

You put +3DC in racial trees. It doesn't make sense that you need three feats to get a corresponding increase.

 

[justin credible]

The 7 feat trick to get +6 DC is an insane feat tax on casters btw. The reason people do it is because they really need it, and still do. I don't think U80 changed this in any way.

I suggest you remove the 7 feat trick and increase the value of individual feats instead. Double regular spell focuses (+2) and just remove the prereqs on the legendary ones to so you don't need focuses in two different schools.

You put +3DC in racial trees. It doesn't make sense that you need three feats to get a corresponding increase.

i would like them to be, 4 feats, +2 to all schools, +4 to all schools, +6 to all schools, and +8 to all schools, and all be available in heroic levels to be on par with martials
i would like the dc bonuses in destiny cores to stack
i would like the destinies that allow +3 to a selection of schools to not lock you out of taking the same bonus in a separate destiny

 

[Terpilar]

No new feats are required.
Instead update the existing ones as follows :

Heroic Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (school) : +1 school DC, +1 Universal DC
Epic Spell Focus (school) : +2 school DC, +2 Universal DC
Spell Specialty (school) : +3 school DC, +3 Universal DC

And finally, allow the ED cores' DC bonus to stack.

 

[Smokewolf]

would like to see something comparable to
Tactical Training (Fighter level 4), +2 to all tactics
Tactical Combatant (Fighter level 8), +4 to all tactics
Tactical Mastery (Fighter level 12), +6 to all tactics
Tactical Supremacy (Fighter level 16). +8 to all tactics

also how martials can take things like improved trip to reduce to cooldown of trip from 15 seconds to 6 seconds, i would like an improved evocation feat that cut in half the cool down of evocation spells, for example

There are abilities that reduce the CD of spells, except that they dont apply to SLA's at all.

 

[PaleFox]

While yes, I think the numbers need to be doubled.

Also, people might want to mix stuff around a tad more for schools than what OP is suggesting.
So I'd rather see +3 straight up for a single school for heroics and +6 for epics and +12 for legendary for a total of 21.