DD Staff Build - Is it missing the obvious?

[Taleisin]

Did a TR to a new Staff monk and was hoping to try DD, but realized it is missing the +15% Attack Speed of Henshin Mystic. Was this on purpose? Could the devs add the staff speed to DD or possibly just put it in Shintao in order for both DD and regular monk to have access to it?

Seems like without it, the staff version of the DD is simply not very good.

Did I miss something on this? I'm guessing I did. Thank you!

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

Straight-up henshin seems better for staff for sure, though the ability to make a dual warhammer or battleaxe pure monk is pretty fun & can let you dish out some serious hurt while levelling in both heroics & epics due to the named options.

 

[Hobgoblin]

could splash rogue

 

[droid327]

the ability to make a dual warhammer or battleaxe pure monk is pretty fun & can let you dish out some serious hurt while levelling in both heroics & epics due to the named options.

This

DD isnt a staff tree just because it replaces Henshin. There's nothing in it that specifically supports staff. Its a "DD Weapons" tree, and those are all 1h weapons, or a pure caster tree if you use Scepter + Orb.

 

[Taleisin]

This

DD isnt a staff tree just because it replaces Henshin. There's nothing in it that specifically supports staff. Its a "DD Weapons" tree, and those are all 1h weapons, or a pure caster tree if you use Scepter + Orb.

On my first try, I’m using handaxe with an orb (Core of the War Machine). I absolutely love it. So much fun and nearing 34. I suppose you’re right but I was hoping to try it with something like Tinder. Seemed like a fun idea.

What do you suggest for weapons? What are the better choices? Note I might just try it with handwraps too.

 

[droid327]

On my first try, I’m using handaxe with an orb (Core of the War Machine). I absolutely love it. So much fun and nearing 34. I suppose you’re right but I was hoping to try it with something like Tinder. Seemed like a fun idea.

What do you suggest for weapons? What are the better choices? Note I might just try it with handwraps too.

Battleaxe or Warhammer seems the obvious general choice, given that you can boost those with KT

Many builds will probably opt to stick with Kukri and VKF over the other options, such as Sickle or Kama with S2P

Gnome may have some synergy with Light Pick and T5 Dlord? IDK, 18-20/x7 sounds fun though, especially with something like Quick Cutter or the Fatesinger strike that offer nice crit range bonuses

 

[Taleisin]

Battleaxe or Warhammer seems the obvious general choice, given that you can boost those with KT

Many builds will probably opt to stick with Kukri and VKF over the other options, such as Sickle or Kama with S2P

Gnome may have some synergy with Light Pick and T5 Dlord? IDK, 18-20/x7 sounds fun though, especially with something like Quick Cutter or the Fatesinger strike that offer nice crit range bonuses

Okay, that sounds pretty cool. I think I see the math used here and I assume the breakdown is 15/5 DD/DL?

I don't see any light picks that are very good? But what about using Light Maces and a Mori's Focus from Hunt or Be Hunted? Could be good if you use Acid as your main element? I wish you could use the Scourge Tier 4 but there is no overlap on weapon types there.

 

[droid327]

Okay, that sounds pretty cool. I think I see the math used here and I assume the breakdown is 15/5 DD/DL?

I don't see any light picks that are very good? But what about using Light Maces and a Mori's Focus from Hunt or Be Hunted? Could be good if you use Acid as your main element? I wish you could use the Scourge Tier 4 but there is no overlap on weapon types there.

Dino Bone/Undying is the fallback for weapons without a specific raid version, of course. IDK, I dont raid so I'm not that familiar with those weapon selections.

The only reason Light Pick was interesting was the /x4 base crit mult, so if you cant make that work, then battleaxe warhammer kukri are probably your top choices

 

[Bjond]

Many builds will probably opt to stick with Kukri and VKF over the other options, such as Sickle or Kama with S2P

If you're looking for endgame raid dps, you pretty much need to beat DL VKF:Kukri @ 15x4 just as a base-line. It's not quite as low-hanging as "INQ+DS" (no melee is), but it's very strong and easy to lay out.

For the OP, yeah, you'll want staff speed and double -- those are the things that make it nice sub-cap. You can get them both and the AE trip with a 3 rogue splash.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

If you're looking for endgame raid dps, you pretty much need to beat DL VKF:Kukri @ 15x4 just as a base-line. It's not quite as low-hanging as "INQ+DS" (no melee is), but it's very strong and easy to lay out.

For the OP, yeah, you'll want staff speed and double -- those are the things that make it nice sub-cap. You can get them both and the AE trip with a 3 rogue splash.

Good advice but also note that after Patience there are diminishing returns on more crit. Going from e.g. 2.15 to 2.4 average multiplier is an 11% DPS increase. If it's worth it to splash /5 DL for the extra crit mult depends on what the alternative nets you as 11% is not going to make or break a build.

 

[Bjond]

Going from e.g. 2.15 to 2.4 average multiplier is an 11% DPS increase. If it's worth it to splash /5 DL for the extra crit mult depends on what the alternative nets you as 11% is not going to make or break a build.

15x3->15x4 is ~17% (gotta include the typical extra 19-20x2) or 15x3x5->15x4x6 for a 41/35 ratio.

It's equivalent to MP+68 for the classic 300 MP melee. For comparison, a Prowess swap weapon is just 10s of 50 MP. CM+1 is a huge bump that just gets bigger once you include activated attacks. It's usually much too big to wave off as inconsequential.

I'm not trying to "sell" the 15x4 DL VKF build. It's just really easy to make and thus provides a metric to beat similar to how INQ+DS does atm for ranged. If your goal is "raid DPS" and you're not beating the easy builds, there's either more work to do OR you can give in. The goal is ultimately "have fun". If mathing out a raid build is "not fun", get in on a known easy win and play!

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BTW, Patience is only an auto-win for ranged. I would not even consider it for SWF or TWF; eg. it's a 47/41=14.6% gain on a DL VKF Kukri with a 10~11% loss for a maybe 2% overall win. If you have any imbues or sneaks or procs at all (and most 1H builds do have them), it will be a net loss.

Unsure about 2H -- I'd have to crunch or review again, but those builds usually win by activated attacks and CM leans hard into those. I don't use 2H much outside Qstaff TR builds. Even for the builds that math out to a win, Patience can completely destroy the "feel" and make play horrifically sluggish.

Fortunately, patient wins for 1H melee are usually so tiny that punting it in general is easy. Ranged, however, often loose nothing at all on attack rate. It's a big automatic win there.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

15x3->15x4 is ~17% (gotta include the typical extra 19-20x2) or 15x3x5->15x4x6 for a 41/35 ratio.

It's equivalent to MP+68 for the classic 300 MP melee. For comparison, a Prowess swap weapon is just 10s of 50 MP. CM+1 is a huge bump that just gets bigger once you include activated attacks. It's usually much too big to wave off as inconsequential.

I'm not trying to "sell" the 15x4 DL VKF build. It's just really easy to make and thus provides a metric to beat similar to how INQ+DS does atm for ranged. If your goal is "raid DPS" and you're not beating the easy builds, there's either more work to do OR you can give in. The goal is ultimately "have fun". If mathing out a raid build is "not fun", get in on a known easy win and play!

---

BTW, Patience is only an auto-win for ranged. I would not even consider it for SWF or TWF; eg. it's a 47/41=14.6% gain on a DL VKF Kukri with a 10~11% loss for a maybe 2% overall win. If you have any imbues or sneaks or procs at all (and most 1H builds do have them), it will be a net loss.

Unsure about 2H -- I'd have to crunch or review again, but those builds usually win by activated attacks and CM leans hard into those. I don't use 2H much outside Qstaff TR builds. Even for the builds that math out to a win, Patience can completely destroy the "feel" and make play horrifically sluggish.

Fortunately, patient wins for 1H melee are usually so tiny that punting it in general is easy. Ranged, however, often loose nothing at all on attack rate. It's a big automatic win there.

If you include Patience in your math then it's actually 11% as I noted (with just one 19-20+1). That Patience doesn't make sense on DL builds is because there are diminishing returns on crit, so I agree with that. My point was that there are enough sources of crit in the game now that maxing it is not a must-have on melee builds.

Patience is an option if you don't go DL so you have to take that into account as an alternative. If you are not going /5 DL the case for including it is stronger, and several builds (including DD) don't get much of either sneak or imbues. In the end. the main difference between DL/5 crit or Patience (that you can't get elsewhere) is precisly 10% attack speed, I can't argue with the feels though.

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

On my first try, I’m using handaxe with an orb (Core of the War Machine). I absolutely love it. So much fun and nearing 34. I suppose you’re right but I was hoping to try it with something like Tinder. Seemed like a fun idea.

What do you suggest for weapons? What are the better choices? Note I might just try it with handwraps too.

Early levels weren't too important since you can breeze through them anyway, crafted are good & iirc i had a couple of crafted shortswords that did the job with 1 point in ninja spy. I changed enhancements a bit and did a feat swap a couple times for different improved criticals feats as i levelled too. Knight's Training was taken relatively early on & the build was far more melee combat focused rather than casty.
At level 9, i went hammers with dual echo of whelm because AoE procs are fun, though the nightforge warhammer at level 8 is a good option too for it's x4 multiplier.
At 14, I switched out to dual axe of adaxus. At this point I had knight's training, improved criticals and t5 in DD so some great boosts to critical threat & multiplier, then running in sun stance for that extra bit of multiplier too, meaning you're in the "omg hitting like a truck" territory.
At 21 I switched back to dual hammers since I had a couple of drow warhammers banked, then at 23 swapped one of them out for mornh & upgraded from hitting like a truck to hitting like a big truck or maybe a moderate train. At level 29+ you get into endgame weapon territory & it's much more a matter of preference of what named items or dino bone you have or want to work towards.

 

[Bjond]

If you include Patience in your math then it's actually 11% as I noted (with just one 19-20+1). That Patience doesn't make sense on DL builds is because there are diminishing returns on crit, so I agree with that. My point was that there are enough sources of crit in the game now that maxing it is not a must-have on melee builds.

Your math is way off. Quick accurate model for profile assumes never miss/graze. Add up "hits" of which there would be 19 for zero criticals. Add 1 hit for each potential bonus. So, a Kukri, which has 15x3x2 from VKF + Overwhelming Critical 19x1 + ED T5 19x1 has

35=15x3x2=19 (base) + 12 (6x2 from 15x3) + 4 (2x 19x1)​

33=15x3x1=19 (base) + 12 (6x2 from 15x3) + 2 (1x 19x1) .. for your 19x1 example​

​

CM+1 on those changes the "12" from 6x2 to "18" from 6x3 and the above becomes

​

41=15x4x2=19 (base) + 18 (6x3 from 15x4) + 4 (2x 19x1)​

39=15x4x1=19 (base) + 18 (6x3 from 15x4) + 2 (1x 19x1) .. for your 19x1 example​

​

If you want to compare them, divide. 39/33=18% or 41/35=17%. If you include patience rate reduction, multiplying by 0.90 isn't correct, but it's close, for 6.2% and 5.4%. Not sure where you're getting the magic 11%, but it's not from Kukri math.

IMHO, you may want to adjust your thinking on profile gains. Even the ~5% from adding 19x1 is similar to adding 20 MP to a 300 MP build, something that is often worth spending 20+ AP to get.

Patience is an option if you don't go DL so you have to take that into account as an alternative. If you are not going /5 DL the case for including it is stronger, and several builds (including DD) don't get much of either sneak or imbues.

Patience v DL is bringing a knife to gun fight. One is pure CM+1. The other ties CM+1 to a drastic rate reduction. Kukri+DL = DPS+18%. Kukri+Patience = DPS+5.4%.

Getting back to DD Qstaff. 2H builds often use adrenaline and other activated for a BIG chunk of their DPS -- activateds that scale heavily on profile and who's CDs aren't increased by patience. It's much harder to napkin-math those versus autos, but gain without loss is win.

Qstaff with patience and actives feels nice, too. My current Qstaff TR'ing build uses it.

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For OP's which should I do next Q, it depends. If you liked the SWF+Orb feel and want to improve that, punt the handaxe. It's only nice for swashbucklers.

VKF+Sky Pirate Dagger is good for 4->20 with an optional upgrade to Guardian of the Liturgy (doesn't look good at first, but it's 1d10 dice bumps up v.nicely with VFK's +1W). It's annoying to farm, though.

If you go with Dagger, I'd highly recommend taking Item Defense from somewhere or your weapons can break very quickly. 1 Dark Hunter would be my pick for that, since it would also give trapping and 2s deflect arrows and item defense for 7 AP. It's a bit irksome that Ninja does not include item defense as it can be pretty important for a 1H weapon build in heroics before you can break most DRs.

I'd stick with the orb thought, but only because staying centered with one is a big deal for a monk; it's a DD signature style.

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

If you go with Dagger, I'd highly recommend taking Item Defense from somewhere or your weapons can break very quickly. 1 Dark Hunter would be my pick for that, since it would also give trapping and 2s deflect arrows and item defense for 7 AP. It's a bit irksome that Ninja does not include item defense as it can be pretty important for a 1H weapon build in heroics before you can break most DRs.

Dragon Disciple gets magical training at level 1, meaning so long as you have feydark illusionist you can spend 3 AP to get illusory weaponry for the shadow imbue, meaning no need to multiclass, no weapon damage at all & a small spellpower boost since your weapon becomes an implement.

 

[Bjond]

no weapon damage at all

I wish the term for that effect was less absurdly ambiguous. I know what you mean, but "no weapon damage" does sound humorously undesirable at face value.

BTW, good call on mentioning FI. I use that regularly during the lowbie "ooze levels" to avoiding needing to pack an ooze-beater, but I thought you still got regular wear from not breaking DR.

Chronoscope at-level is the big test for that one. I recall hitting vendor multiple times for weapon repair due to all the Devil-DR amping up the weapon degrade. That could be because I don't bother casting on non-ooze quests, though.

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

I wish the term for that effect was less absurdly ambiguous. I know what you mean, but "no weapon damage" does sound humorously undesirable at face value.

BTW, good call on mentioning FI. I use that regularly during the lowbie "ooze levels" to avoiding needing to pack an ooze-beater, but I thought you still got regular wear from not breaking DR.

Chronoscope at-level is the big test for that one. I recall hitting vendor multiple times for weapon repair due to all the Devil-DR amping up the weapon degrade. That could be because I don't bother casting on non-ooze quests, though.

Fair enough, "no durability damage to held items" then it doesn't even cause wear from not breaking DR as the material type is changed to force which doesn't take damage.

The bonus of it actually changing the material type rather than simply adding a "doesn't take durability damage" is that if for example you're a druid, you can use a metal shield, cast illusory weaponry (as it effects held items so weapons, shields, orbs), unequip then reequip the shield & you'll no longer be breaking your druidic oath. It works the same way with confront any foe, the level 23 core from the divine crusader destiny, as it doesn't grant a specific "immune to durability damage" effect but changes the material type to light, which is immune to damage.

 

[Bobbryan2]

This

DD isnt a staff tree just because it replaces Henshin. There's nothing in it that specifically supports staff. Its a "DD Weapons" tree, and those are all 1h weapons, or a pure caster tree if you use Scepter + Orb.

The issue is that quarterstaves aren't usable weapons without the 15% attack speed bonus, really...
And quarterstaves are supposed to be monk weapons. They don't have to even grab the DD weapon enhancement trees to use them.
It really should be somewhere, or it should just be included in all quarterstaff attack animations for all builds.

 

[Taleisin]

The issue is that quarterstaves aren't usable weapons without the 15% attack speed bonus, really...
And quarterstaves are supposed to be monk weapons. They don't have to even grab the DD weapon enhancement trees to use them.
It really should be somewhere, or it should just be included in all quarterstaff attack animations for all builds.

This was my initial thought. I think the +15% needs to be added either to the DD tree, moved to Shintao, or just be part of maybe StP?

 

[droid327]

The issue is that quarterstaves aren't usable weapons without the 15% attack speed bonus, really...
And quarterstaves are supposed to be monk weapons. They don't have to even grab the DD weapon enhancement trees to use them.
It really should be somewhere, or it should just be included in all quarterstaff attack animations for all builds.

They are monk weapons. They're not Dragon Disciple weapons though

If they give everything to DD tree, then there's very little reason to do a Henshin stick build. Both give you an imbue, both give you WIS trance. DD has the SLAs. Henshin supports stick, that's its identity.

SF could make the same argument too since they're also a Ki class - they either need to splash /1 monk or rogue to get the 15%. They also dont get Shuriken support or proficiency, though those are Centered weapons too. Should we bake Adv Ninja Training into Shuriken natively too, since shuriken are pretty much pointless without that enhancement?