DD Staff Build - Is it missing the obvious?

[droid327]

Again.

This is false.
The monk changes explicitly changed this. Shintao was explicitly handwraps. Henshinw as explicitly quarterstaff. Ninja spy got short swords.
The monk changes essentially removed all this, but they left the QS attack speed in somewhere, so you could access it.

Henshin DOES have SLAs...

What the Monk revamp did was change it so they were no longer exclusively those weapons, not that they arent still designed with a preferred/specially supported weapon. Shintao still gets offhand strike for handwraps, Henshin gets attack speed for Qstaff, Ninja gets centering with Shortsword and ANT for Shuriken.

 

[HeavyLobster]

DD has no bonus to handaxes, picks, hammers, clubs, scepters and orbs other than being able to use them. From my experience it is also one of the worst ways to play the class.

 

[Bobbryan2]

. Shintao still gets offhand strike for handwraps,

Or kamas. Or sickles. Or longswords. Or scepters. Or clubs. Or literally any other weapon type that they can use. Which is... again.. my point.

DD adds clubs and sceptres.
Ninja spy adds Short swords.
Again.. you hvae the one single data point... the single data point that this OP is asking to fix.
I get that you guys have a preferred interpretation. I have my own. I think mine is both better for game balance AND the intent of the changes. But neither one of us is going to convince the other at this ponit.

 

[Kimbere]

Again... No.
They removed every other quarterstaff enhancement from Henshin. IF they removed the QS attack speed penalty, it would have simply removed QS from monks entirely.
A shintao can still specialize in staff by taking 4 ap in henshin. A shintao DD cannot.


This wasn't a design decision. It was an unintentional oversight because they don't think about things like that when they add archetypes.

You typed that whole response out and didn't even add a single additional data point.

lolol, ok, sure, whatever you think.

Allow me to apply your own logic. A shintao can specialize in handaxes, picks, and hammers by spending AP in DD - a Shintao Henshin cannot.

My posting history will prove I'm no cheerleader for SSG, but even I give them enough credit to assume that if they literally just did a full revamp of the monk trees AND added the DDM tree at the same time, they set the weapon bonuses per tree as they intended.

It's pretty obvious to most of us what the devs' intentions were. They literally reviewed ALL the monk trees and left specific bonuses for specific weapons in Ninja Spy, Henshin, and then set DD to allow handaxes, picks, and hammers to be ki weapons while stating that DD was intended to be more of a caster hybrid tree.

DD has no bonus to handaxes, picks, hammers, clubs, scepters and orbs other than being able to use them. From my experience it is also one of the worst ways to play the class.

DD can get the same +hit/+dmg bonuses for those weapons via the Shintao tree which was the intention of the devs' changes to Shintao.

That aside, I agree with you re: playing DDM. The archetype in general is hot garbage.

It's as if they took all the things that were unique to DDM (spells, bursts and breath SLAs, imbues, etc.) and did their best to arbitrarily limit them in ways that severely neutered them and made them unfun.

The long cooldowns on the breath SLAs are too long. The AoE range on the burst SLAs are too small and/or the damage is too low and scales too poorly. They don't get enough spell points to make them playable as pure casters and their melee damage output potential is gimped compared to regular monk. Last but not least, they're far too feat starved to play as a real hybrid. You're essentially forced to choose between spell-centric feats or melee.

This trainwreck makes Warlocks look good.

 

[Kimbere]

Again... No. /snip

This wasn't a design decision. It was an unintentional oversight because they don't think about things like that when they add archetypes.

You typed that whole response out and didn't even add a single additional data point.

Actually, it was an intentional design decision which is what multiple people have been trying to get through to you.

Per one of their senior devs (https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u72-preview-2-monk-class-changes.17023/post-214968)

Clearly, they didn't forget about it and put it specifically where they wanted it.

Since you're all about data points, here's another one from a senior dev - https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u72-early-look-2-monk-revamp.16309/post-203451

 

[Bobbryan2]

Clearly, they didn't forget about it and put it specifically where they wanted it.

Yes... except for the fact that my thesis was that they didn't think it through when adding DD. they clearly thought about it separating out the monk rework.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Let's be clear about what you're claiming.
You're claiming that it was an intentional decision for Dragon Disciples to be equally as good with ALL other monk weapons... + they get to add a bunch of extra one.
But they are designed to not be able to use quarterstaff... one of the weakest weapons at cap... because it was a drawback to being a caster class.

That is a borderline nonsensical argument.
The only reason you're able to make it is because you're obfuscating it in minutia.

 

[Kimbere]

Yes... except for the fact that my thesis was that they didn't think it through when adding DD. they clearly thought about it separating out the monk rework.

Which brings us back to, my thesis of just because you wish it were that way doesn't make it true. Especially when there is ample evidence that they did a full review of the monk trees while creating the DDM archetype.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Which brings us back to, my thesis of just because you wish it were that way doesn't make it true. Especially when there is ample evidence that they did a full review of the monk trees while creating the DDM archetype.

Then show me THAT data point. Where someone asked for it, and they said... no... this is a design decision.
Because you keep saying that happened. I say it didn't.

I cna't give negative evidence, so it's on you.

 

[Kimbere]

Let's be clear about what you're claiming.
You're claiming that it was an intentional decision for Dragon Disciples to be equally as good with ALL other monk weapons... + they get to add a bunch of extra one.
But they are designed to not be able to use quarterstaff... one of the weakest weapons at cap... because it was a drawback to being a caster class.

This is a strawman fallacy and I'm pretty sure you know it.

All I said was, it seems clear the devs intentionally left that specific bonus for quarterstaves as the purview of Henshin Mystics. DDMs can most certainly use quarterstaves and get the sames bonuses with them as they get with clubs, sceptres, orbs, handaxes, picks, and hammers.

You asked for more data points then call them nonsensical minutia when more evidence was provided.

Clearly you're not open minded and not interested in a logical discussion. Have a nice life wishing for something that isn't true. I'm out.

 

[Bobbryan2]

"It seems clear" that the devs intentionally nerfed one of the worst melee DPS weapons with Dragon disciple... also the one most associated as a caster weapon and one used by caster/melee hybrids.

But they intentionally nerfed the DPS on THAT weapon, and left all the other weapons alone.

This is nonsensical. This is not logical.

 

[droid327]

Or kamas. Or sickles. Or longswords. Or scepters. Or clubs. Or literally any other weapon type that they can use. Which is... again.. my point.

Yes, but 20% Offhand:Handwraps::15% Staff Speed:Qstaff. Its a de facto required enhancement to be able to fully play that combat style.

Again, you're confusing exclusivity with support. Shintao supports handwraps, but that doesnt mean it has to exclusively support handwraps. DD doesnt support Qstaff, just because its a Centered weapon, or just because the tree it replaces does.

Again.. you hvae the one single data point... the single data point that this OP is asking to fix.

I mean yeah this whole discussion is about "one single data point" so I dont think thats a disqualifier

I get that you guys have a preferred interpretation. I have my own. I think mine is both better for game balance AND the intent of the changes. But neither one of us is going to convince the other at this ponit.

Like I said somewhere above, if you want to argue that DD should support Qstaff, you can try to make that argument on its own merit. But I think you'll have a tough time trying to say that DD needs Strikethrough when the tree/archetype is already focused so much on spell AOE

But if you're trying to argue that DD already does support Qstaff and the lack of 15% speed is an omission that needs to be corrected, rather than something new that needs to be added...thats just not correct. And its important to maintain the distinct rolespace drawn out for each class, including weapon selection, otherwise we just melt into a homogenous pool of FOTM metas (more than we already have).

 

[ACJ97F]

Read the title too fast and saw: "DDO staff missing the obvious", then I realized this wasn't a game review. Oops.

 

[Bjond]

My numbers were with Patience, as I said. If you don't like the attack speed slowdown that's fine but when discussing crit options it exists. Your numbers above ignore it, which is why you don't arrive at 11%.

I showed patience numbers in two spots in that post.

If you include patience rate reduction, multiplying by 0.90 isn't correct, but it's close, for 6.2% and 5.4%.

Here's the other spot.

Kukri+DL = DPS+18%. Kukri+Patience = DPS+5.4%.

If you want to compare Kukri+DL to Kukri+DL+Patience, that's 3.2%, not 11%. It's such a small primary bonus that almost any imbue/sneak/procs make patience a bad deal. Here's the breakdown:

15x4x2=41 15x5x2=47 47/41=14.6% @ 90% rate =3.2%​

Unfortunately, I can only show how to calc the exact scalars. It's very simple, just adding up hits. You can approach the counting slightly differently for the same result. This might make more sense:

rolls 2->14=13 are regular + rolls 15->18=4 are x4 hits=16 + rolls 19-20=2 are x6=12​

add them up for 13+16+12=41​

​

the reason this works is that you're essentially adding up the chance to get each hit roll and multiplying each one by it's critical multiplier; eg.​

​

1 + 1 + 1 .. + 1 (13 times for rolls 2->14)​

4 + 4 + 4 + 4 for rolls 15 to 18​

6 + 6 for rolls 19 to 20​

​

I find it quicker to think of it slightly differently, but the results are identical either way:​

​

19 regular hits, each from rolling 1~20​

18=6x3 critical hits for 15~20 @ x4 (but already counted 1 in the 19, so multiply by 4-1=3)​

04=2x2 fat crits for 19~20 @ x6 (but already counted 4 above, so multiply by 6-4=2)​

My guess would be using 19x1 = 10% is where your errors started; that only applies to a 20x1 weapon. You need to consider each profile in full.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

But honestly... QS is in a bad place right now. No one should be using it... but you definitely shouldn't be using it without the 15% attack speed increase.

Forum DDO. QS is one of the best weapons in the game post-monk changes. It arguably levels better than Sorcerer. Most levels, you're marveling at how fun it is to play on God-Mode. At cap, it dominates LH raids, and you're about 80% more survivable than most melee in R10 with your standing 70 %+ dodge. So, really, your melee DPS is better than some dead SWF Dragonlord. Yes, you aren't as good as an Inquisitive. But who is?

 

[Bobbryan2]

Forum DDO. QS is one of the best weapons in the game post-monk changes. It arguably levels better than Sorcerer. Most levels, you're marveling at how fun it is to play on God-Mode. At cap, it dominates LH raids, and you're about 80% more survivable than most melee in R10 with your standing 70 %+ dodge. So, really, your melee DPS is better than some dead SWF Dragonlord. Yes, you aren't as good as an Inquisitive. But who is?

It 'levels'
Yes... I've already said staffs are great to level with, bad dps at cap. The rest of your post is justifying less dps than other 2 handers, but it's actually all about monk survivability and nothing about staves.
But here's the deal. When you're leveling, most enemies take 1-2 hits. The attack speed isn't that important, because your primary ability to level quickly is getting to the next enemy faster to transfer the dps to him.
Run speed > Attack speed when leveling.

When you realize this, monks with staffs are GREAT at leveling. Their attack speed being less isn't nearly as relevant as the monk speed boost + abundant step, etc.

Again... MY suggestion is to remove the 15% attack speed from Thief acobat and Henshin and just add it to the base speed of the QS so all builds can use them equally. There shouldn't be weapons which are only really viable if they splash 1 basic monk or 1 rogue.



But also... all of your other comments apply to handwraps. When I play my henshin these days, he's using handwraps in his caludron with 200 ac, 200-250 PRR, 52-73 dodge, etc.
None of that has anything to do with the QS.

 

[Bjond]

At cap, it dominates LH raids, and you're about 80% more survivable than most melee in R10 with your standing 70 %+ dodge. So, really, your melee DPS is better than some dead SWF Dragonlord.

QS attack rate at cap with 100 DS is ~232/m. Wraps are 452/m. TWF is 365/m. SWF is 280/m MH with up to another 60/m via bash. This is the main reason why top raid melee isn't Qstaff. The other is there is only one decent Qstaff at cap, while other styles have many good choices.

2H does make up ground with actives, but IMHO, it's nowhere near enough and modeling that jumps into spreadsheet territory. It's great for leveling and questing AE. QS shines sub-cap because sub-cap can't hit 100 DS. The 25% Quick-Strikes bonus outperforms nicer profile from non-QS.

The new Shintao can technically give that 25 DS to non-QS 2H via T5 Kensei, but that's 2/3 of your available classes locked up from the start for features that do nothing at-cap; strikethrough does nothing for raids and DS can hit 100 at cap without Quick-Strikes.

---

BTW, this may sound like I hate Qstaff. Far from it! I love sticks sub-cap and use them a ton for carry/TR builds, but they're "meh" at best for raiding.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

But also... all of your other comments apply to handwraps. When I play my henshin these days, he's using handwraps in his caludron with 200 ac, 200-250 PRR, 52-73 dodge, etc.
None of that has anything to do with the QS.

Yes, wraps are excellent now, better even than QS. If you want to use wraps. Which not everyone does. Many of the cauldron buffs also apply to a shuriken tossing monk which, in my opinion, is going to be a better option than both QS and wraps if you're looking for the best DPS and defenses and don't care what your fighting style is (terrible to level though and no AOEs till epics).

This is the main reason why top raid melee isn't Qstaff. The other is there is only one decent Qstaff at cap, while other styles have many good choices.

My response to this is 99% of characters aren't built only to raid in R+. Most people are accumulating reaper points while raiding twice a week at cap. I believe monks are now so far ahead of other melee from a defensive standpoint in high reaper that you aren't accounting for how much their DPS increases vs on paper calculations that assume everyone is not a soul stone. My high reaper DPS matrix looks something like ranged > monk > other melee > casters.

You're right QS choices aren't great and you end up getting stuck with the Undying Age hunt. You do have variety (Spear of Hunter, Mournlands) they are just a cut below. But - QS is almost unique in that you can use Elemental Bloom from L7 to L18 or 20. Then you use Sireth from 23 to 30. So your leveling weapons are extremely smooth and inventory friendly. I acknowledge that I am infatuated with QSs right now so maybe am looking at them with rose-colored glasses.

 

[Bjond]

My response to this is 99% of characters aren't built only to raid in R+

That's why I replied to your raid-Qstaff comment and stuck to raid issues. Quest-built characters have different needs and goals. I rate Acrobat's AE trip MUCH higher for questing than raiding, for instance.

A nice solid AE CC is wonderful in high reaper content. Here's another that I found surprisingly good for high reaper: SDK chains + Swash + Guard-breaking Buckler. Barb|DL for 15x5 Haxe fits there, too, for even more AE DPS with the chains and you can tack on rogue for D.Roll & dodge/cap/mdb.

Too bad we're stuck scrounging CC from heroic abilities. GMOF's wants ki and LD's is so tiny and buggy in the AE that it does.

 

[Bobbryan2]

I think almost everyone here loves quarterstaves.

And yes... handwraps are probably too powerful right now.

But that's more reason not to further nerf qs with monk archetypes.