Debate on the Feat Patience

Drachmor

Well-known member
What is the consensus? For certain profiles this buff seems too huge to pass up... but it's just tough sacrificing the swing speed.

I have a few corollary questions - does dripping with magma apply new damage with each hit? Like glass shards? Would this bit a hit to dps worth considering?

Also, weapons with on-hit CC would lose out on a bit of that, like goldcursed dagger. Also, I suppose you're losing DPS on all non-crits, which levels things out slightly. Like... an imbue build might not want to take this.

My biggest question is this: someone mentioned "animation speed limitations." On my SWF VKF, I have max swingspeed (and really love it!) but is that "too much?" Is there a limit to what swingspeed can do for you? If patience were in effect only a -5% debuff or something I'd be more inclined to run it.

Curious what the discourse is - psychology says the mind processes loss more heavily than gain, so even if this feat works on paper... I'm struggling lol. It seems almost too strong not to take? But I don't wanna take it
 

Goldy

The Top Side
I bug reported this a couple weeks ago. There seems to be some weapon types that the bonus does not appear to be applying to, cough handwraps cough. Did lots of testing against Vixorshal the Deceiver in the Epic IOD Wilderness and without Patience my DPS was in line with I expected it to be, but with Patience my DPS was down 10% but not crit modifier on my monk did not seem to go up the expected +1 critical multiplier.

In theory most DPS builds would see a modicum of increase in DPS output, say 2 or 3 percent depending on your weapon style and animation. You lose on hit base effects, not one off things like Stunning Blow or Emerald Strike.
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
What is the consensus? For certain profiles this buff seems too huge to pass up... but it's just tough sacrificing the swing speed.
Attack speed only affects the standard attack. It doesn't affect active abilities like cleaves.
 

axel15810

Well-known member
On paper my build benefits but it feels really bad to take and see your character get slower, regardless of math. I would rather this feat be changed to always be a positive. Make it just a flat out +.25 multi increase with no effect on speed, for example.

And also it needs to easier to understand because very few players are going to be able to do the extremely complicated math to actually figure out the effect the feat has on an endgame character.

My guess is the feat won't be changed though. I am betting the devs made this feat with the intent to reduce number of attacks in the game and therefore reduce lag. Which I don't like, if true let's combat lag in others way instead please.

I wish this would atleast be made a toggle so you can get your attack speed back if you want.
 
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Ryiah

Well-known member
My guess is the feat won't be changed though. I am betting the devs made this feat with the intent to reduce number of attacks in the game and therefore reduce lag. Which I don't like, if true please let's combat lag in others way instead please.
Yes, according to a statement from Severlin in a livestream with Nimvind.

 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
Using it. Loving it.
It is very build dependent though. With high crit range the benefit of a crit multiplier is massive and with SWF the attack speed penalty is minimized.
Using active abilities with cooldown like quick cutter, rapid attack and whirlwind benefit from it too.
 

Drachmor

Well-known member
I bug reported this a couple weeks ago. There seems to be some weapon types that the bonus does not appear to be applying to, cough handwraps cough. Did lots of testing against Vixorshal the Deceiver in the Epic IOD Wilderness and without Patience my DPS was in line with I expected it to be, but with Patience my DPS was down 10% but not crit modifier on my monk did not seem to go up the expected +1 critical multiplier.

In theory most DPS builds would see a modicum of increase in DPS output, say 2 or 3 percent depending on your weapon style and animation. You lose on hit base effects, not one off things like Stunning Blow or Emerald Strike.
This is roughly my understanding, I've been doing the math and the difference isn't as significant as I originally thought for some average crit profiles. I believe the other answers are right, that it is likely build dependent - I haven't properly factored special attacks into my consideration at all!
 

Drachmor

Well-known member
Attack speed only affects the standard attack. It doesn't affect active abilities like cleaves.
Is this true? If so that would be a huge difference... but I could have sworn I have experienced faster or slower whirlwinds
 

Drachmor

Well-known member
On paper my build benefits but it feels really bad to take and see your character get slower, regardless of math.
This is fascinating because I agree, regardless of math, this really does have an effect on your play.

Although if attack speed really has no effect on special attacks like whirlwind or Orchid Blossom - or any special attack - then I would be much more inclined.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
The thing that is hardest to measure is whether you are actually losing 10% attack speed and I think it many cases it ends up being less than 10%.

It increases big hits like adrenaline - boulder's might and many people have alot of special attacks. So I think in most cases you come out ahead with patience.

There are edge cases like builds focusing on imbue and sneak damage. Those builds will likely lose dps.

I think the only way to know for sure is to test it on a build by build basis, but I would think more builds would benefit than not benefit.
 

Zaszgul

Well-known member
Interesting. Is it just the abilities that they listed? If so I think I just lost most of my interest in the feat.
All attacks should scale with attack speed at this point. Many already were because they just used the regular attack animation. Any that don't scale with speed now are bugged.
 

Mechgraber

Well-known member
It is very strong. Play around with this a bit and you'll see just how strong crit multiplier is in terms of damage output: https://mmlddo.com/MMLDDOMeleeDPS.html

There's a reason SOS/ESOS have been very popular for many years, and there was no legendary version...crits are a huge part of how damage scales up. That being said, it does miss out on some added procs like elemental rings which would be more hits/second dependent.

If you have a big range and a fast attack speed I think it's going to put you ahead in most content. If you are at +35% increased attack speed and +30% from haste boost, going from 165% to 155% is really not a huge deal.

My vanguard's calculated DPS goes from 10152 without, to 11776 with, and that's without haste boost, with haste boost the gap gets even wider.

I tested 0% increased attack speed with patience and 10% increased attack speed without, in that case it's pretty close, 9067 with vs 9029 without.

If you're an imbue or sneak attack type of focused build maybe pass.

If you use attacks like quick cutter that give +range it'll be money. That being said, I haven't taken it because I didn't run the math and thought "lower attack speed? NO THANKS!" but I'll definitely try it the next melee life it's suitable for.
 

Teh_Troll

Well-known member
Take it on a bow (if you're still a chimp like me who hate changing his build, and sticks with stuff after the devs make it awful. I'll never understand their love for thrown weapons and crossbows).

Take it on a two-hander.

I don't THINK it's the right call for TWFing. From my calcs the damage is slightly better but once you count sneak attack and other splash damage you're better off without it.
 

Phaaze

Well-known member
The thing that is hardest to measure is whether you are actually losing 10% attack speed and I think it many cases it ends up being less than 10%.

It increases big hits like adrenaline - boulder's might and many people have alot of special attacks. So I think in most cases you come out ahead with patience.

There are edge cases like builds focusing on imbue and sneak damage. Those builds will likely lose dps.

I think the only way to know for sure is to test it on a build by build basis, but I would think more builds would benefit than not benefit.
It does drop your attack speed by 10%
So if you have haste on it goes from 115% to 105% and it does nothing to recuce your base attack bonus speed so you are actually losing less than 10% dps before any bonuses.
 

Phaaze

Well-known member
Also if you take patience on an adrenaline build its pretty nuts in mid epics I was adrenaline critting for almost 50k in r1 using a level 18 maul.
 
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